EP12 – Avril Speaks and We Listen

07.03.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 12

Known for her versatility as a director, producer, showrunner, and distribution advocate, Avril Speaks joins us this week to walk and doc. From her theological start to her producing days on the SXSW award-winning feature JINN, Avril delves into the importance of storytelling, her transition into nonfiction during the pandemic, and her advocacy for better distribution practices. And, she’s our first guest to act out a scene from the movie, ANNIE!

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene

00:28 Meet Avril Speaks

02:27 Avril’s Seminary Journey and Its Impact

04:48 The Intersection of Film and Theology

10:21 From Seminary to Filmmaking: The Journey Back

11:51 Producing ‘Jinn’: A Relatable Faith Journey

18:08 Transitioning to Nonfiction During the Pandemic

19:12 Exploring Diverse Topics: From Family Histories to UFOs

20:04 Directing and Producing: Balancing Roles

21:03 Distribution Advocates: Origins and Mission

21:17 Challenges in Film Distribution

22:27 Creating a Filmmaker’s Cheat Sheet

23:30 Funding and Support for Filmmakers

24:12 Collaborations and Outreach

25:48 Marketing Innovation Fund

28:08 Navigating the Film Industry

29:37 The Role of Producers

37:33 Advice for Young Filmmakers

40:00 Conclusion and Final Though

And you lead the way.

I'll lead the way.

We're gonna go here and take a right.

Okay.

Um,

I feel like I'm on the verge of something.

Oh, great.

Wow.

That is.

Phenomenal.

The verge of something.

Great.

You're definitely our first guest to start the, the walk with a statement

like that, so thank you very much.

I mean, I kind of want to end

it right here and like just

stay on the verge.

There's a lot of pressure on us now.

Okay, so downhill from,

who are we here with?

Uh, I can't wait to introduce you, Ben, to my new friend Averil Speaks.

Ry and I have just spent the last three or four days together kind of, uh, working.

Uh, panels at the doc intensive with Austin Film Society.

Um, but, uh, veil was recommended by a friend of the podcast, Megan

Gilbride, to our, to our little system here, because she comes to

documentary and works in documentary in just about every way you can.

She's a director.

She's a producer.

She's a showrunner.

Wow.

And she's a distribution advocate.

Which is something I didn't know existed and I didn't know I needed, but I did do

now and I know that I continued to need.

So we're gonna get into all that.

We're gonna let IL kind of speak for herself.

Um, but I would just say that, uh, that I have had so much fun kind of

getting to hear her experience and point of view over the last couple days.

I'm excited to share it with you, Ben, and share it with.

It's a very limited number of people in our audience.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walk with Ben and Keith,

so, so how was that intro?

Did he cover all the bases?

It sounds like there's a lot to talk about there.

This April

person, I don't know, I come to meet her.

She is

pretty

impress provocateur.

Honestly, I think at the end of the day, I am just a storyteller

like that, that word storyteller.

I just recently started embracing.

I've always liked to tell stories since I was a kid in many different forms, plays,

poetry, you novels, and I think that I've always had this desire to do right by.

Storytellers, you know, so that's like, I think that advocacy part

has always been there in some form, in some way, shape or form as well.

It's always been like, but how do we get more people to do X, Y, Z?

How do we help?

Well, you know what I'm so curious to ask you about, I was reading your bio

and one of the things that fascinated me is that you went to the seminary.

I did.

We have not talked to a filmmaker who.

Also is a So are you a priest?

No.

Not by any stretch.

Well, you're, you must be a spiritual person if you've, if you did that.

So could you talk about, about that part of your life?

Yeah, I, um, first of all, it's, I love that you found that.

'cause I don't, I don't talk about it a lot.

Ooh.

Um,

we've got an exclusive.

I don't talk about it a lot for many reasons.

I, you know, that's usually the first thing, oh, are you a pastor?

Did you wanna be a pastor?

And that was never my intention in doing it.

It was strictly a, um, curiosity.

Wow.

Um, and also a curiosity.

And also I kind of hit a crossroads in filmmaking where I was just like, I

don't know if I want to do this anymore.

Um.

And kind of thought I, I was teaching at the time, um, when I made this decision

to go, I was teaching film filmmaking and I was like, maybe I'll just just

keep teaching for the rest of my life.

Like maybe I'll make this hard turn out of production and start teaching.

But I was like, I don't have a PhD. I should get a PhD. If that's

gonna be my path, what can I study?

What would I be interested enough?

To study for, you know, eight or nine years or whatever.

And the only thing that came up was film or theology.

Like I'm interested in like, you know, just what people think

about God and faith and the, the universe and things like that.

And I found a program that had both, it was a theology and film program,

so I said, okay, I'll do that.

Wow.

And I went, where is that at?

It's in, uh, Pasadena, in California.

Okay.

Yeah, that's actually why I moved to LA was to go to that program.

But when I got there, um, it was great.

It was, it was probably the most formative two years of my life.

Um, but when I got there, it was very, uh, like I said, I, I kinda went

out of curiosity and also just being at this crossroads of kind of like,

what am I gonna do in the future?

I'll just, I'll, I'll be, I'll be a theology and film professor.

And then I took my first theology and film class.

Yeah.

And my professor did a, he did a whole like analysis of Moulin

Rouge and how we can learn, how we can relate it to the Book of Job.

And I was like, what?

Like, it blew my mind.

I was like, what are you talking about?

And, but it was like so well thought out.

Like, and the, there was the type of program, it's like film.

It's kinda like we were talking yesterday about cinema is like a church.

Mm-hmm.

That's literally what that whole program is about, but it's

like putting language to it.

It's like all of the films that we gravitate toward for whatever

reason, like no matter what the film is, it's saying something about

who we are as humans and how um, we interact with the world and with.

The divine, like, whatever that looks like for you.

Like it's, it's saying something about like, what's in your

core, like what's in your heart.

Oh, interesting.

So like in the, let me repeat that back so I make sure I understand.

So in the same way that filmmakers say the, the subjects that they gravitate

towards are subjects that they're working through in their own lives.

Mm-hmm.

Personally.

Mm-hmm.

Films that we love mm-hmm.

Are also speaking to that part of us where we're psychologically working

through something absolutely similar.

Absolutely.

And it's one of those things, like a lot of my storytelling

background came through the church.

Um, but like as I got older and started getting into film, I've

always kind of felt this sort of clash between those two things because.

Some of the churches I was going to later in life, it was this attitude of like,

oh, that, you know, the movies are evil.

Like it was like that kind of thing, right?

Yeah.

So I was like, well, I don't believe that.

So when I went to this seminary, it kind of gave language to

everything that I had been thinking.

I did this exercise, I went on this retreat one time, and this, uh,

they had us list our top 10 films.

Like what are the 10 films that make you the most emotional?

And like some of the ones that were on my list.

We're like viol.

I was like, what is, what is this saying about myself?

You know?

And some they, it was such a span of films, like, I think Set It Off

was on there, Uhhuh, and he was on there and I'm like, why Annie?

Interesting.

Yeah.

Why, why, why are these the films that come up?

Right.

Petty issues.

You

daddy war bus,

which is like, which is like the least.

I I, I'm like the last per, I love my dad with all of my heart.

But when we broke it down, it's like the scene that, and set it

off the scene that I start bawling that last scene when C Cleo gets

out of the, um, car and the police.

I don't know if you've seen the movie, it's been a long time, but

they like shoot, it's like a shootout.

Yeah.

With her and the police.

And you think that she's dead.

And then she like gets out like the last minute is like,

blah, blah, like to the police.

Oh.

And I just started bawling and I'm like, ah, Claire.

Wow.

And you know, we were, we really dug into that and it was like, it's not

so much that scene that makes me cry.

It's that Cleo is the protector right.

Of her community.

And look of those friend, like, of that friend group.

And she's the last one standing, and she's the one that's like, you guys Go ahead.

I'm gonna take one for the team.

Like, there's always this, um, theme that I keep grabbing to,

of, of taking one for the team.

Okay.

It's the same thing with Annie.

I would start crying on that scene when Annie runs away from Rooster.

And she's on the bridge, and Carol Burnett is like roaster.

She's a baby.

She's like,

and then you know, Punjab, which is problematic, but like Punjab comes in

on the helicopter and Andy's like crying and she's like, poor job, help me.

And he comes down to help.

But it's again, taking one for the team because Annie.

Is like sticking up for herself, but also sticking up for the other orphans.

Yeah.

So there's this constant theme of like taking one for the team.

You're a true advocate, right?

The sacrificial heart to, to give of yourself for others.

Exactly.

I love it.

And so going back to the whole seminary thing, it helped

me to give language to that.

Mm-hmm.

And so it was like, oh wow, these films that I've.

Gravitated toward.

There's nothing wrong with those films.

It's just that's how I relate to who I am as a person.

They're your scripture and how I relate

to Exactly, exactly.

Yes.

It's story.

It's all storytelling.

To understand who we are.

Right.

To figure out who we are.

Ben, I'm so glad that you asked that question because now I need

to go back and re-watch Annie.

Yeah.

Um, and set it off.

Um, how long were you in that program?

So I only lasted two years.

I didn't go to get the PhD. Yeah.

And so after two years, I um, just ended the journey there

and went back into production.

So I was there for two years.

I mean, it sounds like a real success story though,

and that's why I say there were probably the most formative two years of my life.

Yeah.

Um, 'cause it really.

Widened my lens on what stories I wanted to tell and, um, I, yeah, it

just gave me that push to like, let's go back out and let's take this framework

into production and into the field.

I also felt like it was one of the first times in my life that all the parts

of me were like, welcome to the table.

It was like by black, so female.

Christian, like all of these things were allowed at the table and allowed to speak.

That's very empowering.

I just felt

really, yeah.

Yeah.

So the revitalization that, that, uh, you know, infused in you,

what did you do with that energy?

How did you, kind of, like what did you do?

I made a movie called Gin.

Mm. Uh, jury award winner at South by Southwest.

What year was that?

Uh, we played gin in 2018.

Okay.

Yeah.

And for those who haven't seen it, tell us what Jen's about.

Yeah, so Jen is a story about a teenage girl whose life changes when

her mother converts to Islam, and um, so it just follows their journey.

It's a, the writer director is national movement and it's partially based

on her, um, experience growing up.

Her father was Muslim and, um, she wanted to capture that tension that was.

You know, as a teenager there's something very beautiful about this faith tradition,

but also it's conflicting 'cause she's 16 and she wants to listen to Little Kim

and like go to parties and drink and do all these things and experience life.

Well, and that seems like such a natural film for you to make

coming out of a religious program to make a religious themed film.

But I'm curious, you were coming out of a Christian.

Program.

What was it about making a movie about Islam that appealed to you?

Um, I just related to it, like when I read the script, I was like, this is

probably the most, um, relatable script I've read, you know, for the, uh, coming

of age story on someone's faith journey.

But I could relate to that.

Having grown up, I, you know, I didn't grow up Muslim, but I grew up.

In a Christian home and had the same conflict, you know?

Right, right.

Same questions are on the table.

Same

questions.

Exactly.

Um, and that's, so we talked about your many hats at the beginning.

Mm-hmm.

This is obviously as a producer.

Mm-hmm.

Is that your first major kind of producer role?

Pretty much, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, the other times that I've produced, it's been kind of, you

know, I was director, producer, you know, I was doing all those

things, so this was the first time.

That I had the Capital P producer position was Jen.

And how did that, how was that relationship with your director, having

been a director, having worked at that point you'd worked in both fiction and

nonfiction, or just only nonfiction

at that point?

I had most worked mostly just in fiction.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, um, how did you, how did you navigate the relationship, uh, shift.

To the, to the work as a producer and not the director, and also supporting

the director or work collaborating with the director As a producer,

it was great because, like I had directed two features before that

and like, I think I had a lot of trauma around directing at that time.

Mm. And so I wasn't trying to direct Right.

Like I, and I didn't realize.

It was trauma until years later.

Like if you would've asked me back then if I would direct again, my answer was no.

I was like, I don't wanna direct anymore.

So it was fine.

I was like, you do your thing.

I'm here to support you.

Like I'm in the background, you know, because I had directed before, there

were things that I understood and knew and like used that as a means

to support her and like advise like, oh, maybe we should do this or that.

Um, so it was additive in that way.

Um,

at least I think it was.

But yeah, it was great.

And it was also like one of the first times that I was able to work with

someone else and, um, you know, just have that trust that like, yeah,

you have a vision for this and, um.

I'm here for it, like I'm here supporting your vision, giving you

full space to execute that vision and, and also just like doing what I

can to make that vision come to life.

Sometimes taking one for the team.

Totally.

I always, I

always think of as a producer, right?

Like that's what, that's what I was getting at.

Like the producers, every producer I know who's a real producer has.

This switch that that's available to them.

Yeah.

To turn their ego on and off.

Yeah.

And directors don't always have that switch.

Yeah.

It's kind of stuck on, and I respect that, you know, as, as I've gotten

older, more mature in my career.

I've started older for sure.

Yeah.

I don't know about more mature.

Started taking on rolls.

As an executive producer a little bit here and there.

I haven't, I haven't gone full producer for another director

because I, I don't know how capable I, I'd be, uh, seating space.

But, you know, it's so interesting to hear you say that because um,

it's like, I think it's interesting.

Yes.

I think it's, there's a switch that comes on with producing,

and I think I'm learning.

I think I'm still learning how to switch that off and on.

Like coming back to directing, it's like, 'cause I do feel like there

is, as director, you can't always take my team like you have to.

Right.

No, you're right.

Have the vision.

You know, and I do think that, um, that's a challenge for me sometimes

coming back to directing is to turn that take one for the team.

Switch off.

Yeah.

And be like, no, this is what it needs to be.

That's what you want out of a, out of your director.

Yeah.

And it's, it, it can come off as hardheadedness or stubbornness.

It can ego, you know, you be a real asshole.

Yeah.

But you, I feel like at least I was raised in a raised filmically,

raised in a tradition where the director is the ultimate tiebreaker.

Yeah.

Um, and because of that, that means the producer oftentimes needs to be the one.

To create the space for the director to kind of live there.

Yeah.

And sometimes the producer has to take a backseat to the director.

Sometimes the producer has to take a backseat to the executive producer.

Yep.

Um, or that, or the talent.

Right?

Yeah.

Like you can't let the director be in the line of fire with the talent.

Um, or else you get director trauma.

Right.

I wanna hear your thoughts on this, uh, transporting into the world of nonfiction.

Well, I've always liked watching nonfiction, but I think in terms

of making it, that transition happened during the pandemic.

It was a, a doc series that, um, discovery, discovery plus picked up

and um, and what was that one called?

It was called Uprooted.

And what was that about?

It was about a family whose son, brother, uh, had been killed in 1986.

And they were trying to find, oh, excuse, sorry.

Justice for, um, his death.

It's a very powerful piece.

Oh, you've seen it?

Well, I wa I watched it in preparation when Megan first,

uh, talked to us about you.

Oh, cool.

I watched your reel.

And then it's, it's very much the kind of story that I'm grabbed by.

Yeah.

Is a family trying to Yeah.

Come to terms.

With their past.

Yes.

And so I haven't seen all of it, but I saw, I, you know, I wanted to get

enough of a sense of it to kind of just, just see what you are into.

Yeah.

You know, and then I also saw.

Not to switch too quickly.

Mm-hmm.

'cause we'll come back to that.

But you also have some work in the world of UFOs and aliens.

Yes.

That I was also impressed with.

I was like, Ooh, we should, there's a lot

of overlap in

my interests here.

So, um, so family histories and aliens and religion, you're covering all the bases.

I mean, they all kind of go together.

But

you know, the, the, the aliens won.

I wouldn't have thought that at the beginning.

Yeah.

Like I kind of just got handed that show.

Yeah.

And like at the beginning I was like, what?

Wow.

Like, what the hell?

And then, but once I, you know, got into it.

And also the thing is I love talking to people and hearing their stories.

And that's what got it for me.

I'm sorry,

what show was this one?

Sorry?

This was Files of the Unexplained.

Okay.

Which is on Netflix.

Gotcha.

And so you've been working as a showrunner, uh, on these series,

but you're also directing individual episodes and producing the whole series?

Or how, what's the layout of that?

Most of the stuff I've been doing right now has been whole series.

Mm-hmm.

Um,

were you, are you directing every episode then?

Or you're bringing in directors,

um, for files.

There were two, like two of us kind of shared the show running in

direct, like we kind of switched off.

Gotcha.

So she did four and I did four.

Um, uh, like uprooted, I did all of them.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but then there's been other ones where it's like, I've

come in on different stages.

Like when I, I came in and post and like just so ran the, like, just

they had directors for each of them.

And then I shall run that.

So it just kind of varies, but I haven't done, I'd like to do more

like one, like I'll come in for an episode and just do an episode.

Mm-hmm.

I'd love to do more of that.

More of a traditional directing role.

We've talked about your theologian hat.

Mm-hmm.

We've talked about your director hat and your producer hat.

Mm-hmm.

Let's talk a little more about your advocate mm-hmm.

Hat mm-hmm.

Um, what is distribution advocates and what have you guys, uh, been up to?

You know, it kind of started out as just a group of producers during the

pandemic, like when everything shut down.

Um, like back when we were all sitting around like, how do we make movies again?

How will we ever be able to go on set?

There were like Zoom calls and stuff where people were having thoughts of like.

Maybe this is an opportunity to fix some of the things that are broken because

we'll have to, we have this time mm-hmm.

To sit out and, um, one of those zoom calls was, you know, a handful

of producers and the conversation just shifted to, to distribution.

And every single one of us had a horror story or multiple horror stories.

Yeah.

About distribution gone wrong and also.

We're all sharing how much distribution is clouded in mystery.

Like, 'cause nobody talks about it, like people just don't share numbers.

Right, right.

You're so

focused on making the movie.

Right.

Exactly.

That what happens after that is kind of, feels very vague.

Exactly.

And so we started having conversations about like, what could we do to fix that?

And it, it, it literally started with us like, Hey, let's

put together a cheat sheet.

To help filmmakers, you know, just they can just go down the list.

Um, if, if they're facing a distribution deal, they can go down

this list and help protect themselves.

We presented it at getting real and people said, this is amazing, like,

how can we bring this to our group?

And then so other groups started asking us to come and present the cheat sheet.

So, uh.

So it's five of us.

It's myself, Karen Shean, Amy Hobby, Carlos Gutierrez, and

Abby's son, and Karen Shean and I.

That first year or two, we were literally at like every film

organization presenting this cheat sheet and doing these teach-ins and um.

You know, that's really, did you have a way to where it started?

Did you have a way to fund this effort?

Was it all volunteer or?

We actually, um, had great support from Ford Foundation, from Perspective Fund,

from Sundance, from Color Congress.

Um, we had a good amount of support that allowed us to do these

teach-ins and also just to keep the program function like operating.

I remember at the same time also having conversations with.

A lot of these organizations about like producers and how there's so little

support for producers and then it's like, okay, what can we do to, how about we

list producers in the festival program?

You know, that'd be nice.

Just little things like that.

So.

Um,

so are you working with the Documentary Producers Alliance or the Doc, or

there's now a producer's union, there's the Producer's Guild of America.

Are you overlapping with those folks?

A little bit.

So if you think of us as kind of more like a think tank, um, especially now.

'cause now once we, we, like I said, we started doing those, uh, teach-ins

and at that time we were mostly working with, um, organizations.

So, and, and also our grant.

Uh, only allowed us to, um, focus on docs.

So like, we did do a, we did a, we did one with DPA.

We did like literally every, I think we did Big Sky.

We did, we just kind of went filmed north.

We just went around to a bunch of different places.

Karen and I were just like, how can we make this information live somewhere?

So then we did a podcast where we put the educational stuff on the podcast.

Then we start, then we thought.

How can we get back to our original conversations about change, like more

systemic change, what needs to happen within the industry to help this

be more sustainable for filmmakers?

And so that's where those organizations came in, where they were like, oh,

these are important conversations.

We wanna be a part and help you fund it.

And so, because those original conversations were about, um.

You know, how do we do this differently?

We kind of were like, what are some of the fundamental issues that filmmakers face in

distribution marketing being one of them.

Yeah.

And so we came up with this idea of doing a marketing innovation fund.

And so those organizations gave us, um, support to fund projects that are.

Doing experiments in marketing innovation.

Okay.

So a little, a little bell just went off inside of me.

Okay.

Because I'd heard you just say mm-hmm.

That you have a fund that funds projects.

Yes.

And I have projects and Ben has projects, and the three listeners, hopefully

still with us, uh, have projects.

How do we dip into that fund?

Yeah.

So the way you dip into that fund, so it is a specific

project for marketing innovation.

And so what that means is.

We want projects that are looking at, you know, if distribution companies

were to do this, this is how this could change the industry if theaters

would do this, if you know what I mean?

So it's looking at like, if this one little part would change mm-hmm.

We can have some systemic change in the industry.

And so it's giving a little bit of money.

It's the grants range anywhere from five to $50,000.

Mm-hmm.

Take it.

Yeah.

And we just want people to think about systemic change.

The, the, the caveat I will say is that they do need to be films

that, um, are experimenting in some way as part of their plan.

With, uh, theatrical distribution.

Great.

And, um, they should have a distributor attached.

Um, it can be, and we're, we're primarily focusing on like independent distributors,

just 'cause we went That's who needs the help, because that's who needs the

help, because that's who needs the help.

Exactly, yeah.

And also they're the ones most willing to do experiments, you know?

right, right.

Yeah.

There's not so much, um.

And I mean, even if it's like you working with someone who used to work in

distribution or, or knows the distribution space, I think our main concern is

we just want, we want it to get done.

You know, we want there to be a mechanism in place for you to be able to execute the

idea.

Well.

What I love about the hearing that, and I, I, I'm fully supportive

of grants for New Voices mm-hmm.

And have played a role behind the scenes in some of those from time to time.

Yeah.

But.

For mid-career filmmakers for risk takers.

Yeah.

Um, with a track record.

Yeah.

This sounds like the kind of thing, you know, when you say Absolutely you have to

have a distribution deal in place already.

Absolutely.

Some people in our audience are turned off immediately.

They're like, well, I, how do you get that?

Yeah.

But the reality is, and people have a hard time hearing this sometimes.

Even when you get a distribution deal, it's still an uphill battle.

Yeah.

Even when you're mid-career and you have a couple good credits, or

people recognize your name in some way, it's still an uphill battle.

It never stops being an uphill battle.

Totally.

Um, so I love the sound of support for innovation in that

because it's not just saying.

We're just gonna give a boost to somebody who's already halfway there.

Right.

We're saying we're giving a boost to somebody who's got a track record,

who's then going to potentially change things for everyone.

For everyone.

Exactly.

I love that.

And the other thing is, you know, to your point, these are people

who, you know, have some experience and also have some relationships.

And so it's like, Hey, let me contact who I know at Cinema

Score and let's figure out how do we make our, you know, festival.

Box office counts toward box office.

Like how can we work together to make this happen and to become the norm.

Well, and you're with, you know, your, your work and distribution

here, you're such an interesting person to talk about the state of

our documentary business right now because you've worn so many hats.

You've worked, uh, in so many different formats, you know, what are

you, what are you seeing out there in terms of, you know, documentary,

just the state of documentary.

Tell us something good.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Cricket.

It's cricket Good.

No,

I dunno.

I think I, I am really excited about this fund that we're doing because

it's just kind of illuminating the alternative options that are out there.

I think what's good is that I'm hearing so many more conversations

about DIY self-distribution and not just self-distribution because.

You know, I'm, I'm always on the offense about self-distribution.

It's really, it's really hard.

Like, it's not for the faint of heart, but, right.

' cause you've already made the movie and then you have to, to almost

make the movie again by Exactly.

By going out to show it.

And it takes, it's, it's, um, quite expensive.

Um, especially in this, it is like we're competing for eyeballs.

It is very difficult for an independent.

It's, it is hard for, even if you have distribution, it's hard.

Mm-hmm.

And so let alone if you're trying to do it yourself.

But that being said, um, it's encouraging that there are

platforms that have sprung up.

There are companies that have sprung up.

There's, there's many, um.

There's just many ways to go that path if you so choose to the

fact that, um, there's so many options for, um, for screening.

You know, there's, there's gather, there's jolt, there's film hub.

There's so many ways.

If you kind of, if you can come up with or dream up an idea on

how to engage your audience, like each one of those platforms.

Works differently in terms of how they engage that audience and like how

involved they get, how involved you have to be in order to make that happen.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I think that that is, um, an exciting thing.

I also feel like I'm hearing so much conversation about audience now.

Not that we weren't talking about audience before.

We've always had conversations about audience and understood the

importance of audience, but it does feel like there's an energy.

Around getting in front of the audience and getting, getting a community together.

Um.

To, to make a film, to watch a film.

Like I like the energy that's happening around audience building and doing that

audience building from the very beginning.

Like, you know, to your point, not at the end, right?

Like, oh, I've done the film and now, right.

Let me go find those people that I, that I thought this was for.

Right.

I'm, I'm so glad to hear that you have a rosy.

View of it, because as a showrunner and director on TV shows, I

know how dire it is right now.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of people that I've worked on those shows with have literally

gotten out of the film business.

Yeah.

Because they, uh, are used to going from show, to show, to show

to pay their mortgage and Right.

Um, because the amount of shows being made have almost been cut in half.

Yeah.

Um, you know, a lot of people feel like our industry is in this sort of inflection

point where it's, it's changing in a way where it's, it's, uh, very scary.

Yeah.

For people.

So I'm, I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that you're optimistic about it.

I was just talking to Megan about this last night.

I was like, you know, may, I don't know if maybe that's another.

Iteration or another thing for distribution advocates or some

other organization to take up.

It's like, how do we make more to producers?

Mm. We

need more.

Mm-hmm.

It's such hard one information that makes a good pro producer, and it's

like, I always talk to people about if you've ever planned a large scale

party, if you've ever thrown a wedding.

Right, right.

Or if you're the person that plans the group.

Road trip.

Mm-hmm.

You know, uh, you're, you're naturally a producer and you've got Absolutely.

You've got 70% of what it takes

Yeah.

Already internally.

Yeah.

But that last 30% is hard won Yeah.

Information.

Yeah.

And so many producers that I know, my dear friend Megan included, don't have

assistance and they don't have a junior.

Right.

That they rely on, that they're kind of boosting up with them.

Yeah.

And I, I wonder if that's like a way, is to encourage producers.

To have either an assistant or an apprentice or a, or a, an

entry, a junior level producer.

An associate producer or something.

Yeah.

So that there's a farm system.

I would agree a hundred percent that there's not a mechanism or, or a system.

Or even just like thought wise, not even necessarily like, oh, there's

a program to have an assistant.

But even just thought wise of like having the next Right.

Like who's the next in line?

Um.

It's, it's almost like producers have that switch we talked about

earlier, that that gives space to the director in so many ways.

Yeah.

But most producers that I know don't have that switch.

Yeah.

That allows to take on help.

Yeah.

And

when you take on help you lighten your load, but you also.

Educate.

Right,

right,

right.

Um, and it does seem like producer is a, is a perfect role for like

an apprenticeship, you know?

Yes.

That you, you grow younger producers up underneath you.

Totally.

I feel like every project I do, I'm learning something completely

different and I'm like, absolutely.

Faking it.

I'm like learning as I go along, like, oh, I've never done that before.

Let me figure that out.

But aren't we all doing that?

We're all doing that.

Rachel Grady had the, the, a great saying last night at the q and a

for, um, folk Tales where she said, documentary filmmaking is so hard

because nobody's asking you to do it.

Yes, nobody cares if you finish.

Most of the time nobody's supporting you financially to do it.

Yeah.

So it really is this self-directed, uh, it's very true deadline

that you're giving yourself.

It doesn't matter to anybody else until you make it and then go share it.

It's very true with the world.

It's very true.

Yeah.

But, you

know, I also think that there's, um, there's not a lot of

clarity on what producers do.

I know I didn't, I didn't really understand what producers did until.

I became one.

You became one.

That's right.

Yeah.

'cause when I first started out, like when I went to film

school, I went as a director.

Mm-hmm.

And because so many times when people just make this decision in their

life, I'm gonna be a filmmaker, the default is to be a director.

Right.

Or you know, sometimes it's writer or actor or whatever.

But often it's, I'm gonna be a director.

Having taught for a number of years, there's been so many times I.

Where I've had students who are like, yeah, I'm gonna be this director.

And it's like, no, you really should be producing this, his project.

Right.

Like I can see it written all over you.

Well, we're coming up to your hotel here and, uh, wanna be respectful of your time.

So, you know, one of the last questions is that we, we hope that people

listening to this are, uh, a lot of young filmmakers who are wondering maybe how

to start out or you know, how to, how to go about making their first project.

So.

What, how would you, what, what would your advice be for young filmmakers?

Hmm.

That would be my advice for young filmmakers.

I would not be where I am today if it wasn't for people who had gone before me.

Like who had, you know, been this path and were open and willing

to say like, let me help you out.

Let me look over this contract for you and tell you all the things that are wrong

about this.

Can I have that phone number please?

Yeah, it's like, I think I would say find good mentors to help

guide you through the process.

Even as much as you know, like we just said, a lot of it is you're

figuring it out as you're going along.

That's such a great answer, and it's honestly, the reason why we're

excited about this podcast is like.

It's easier said than done.

Find a mentor.

Right.

You have to be in the right place at the right time with a generous

person, but you could also just tune into doc walks and get mentorship.

Exactly.

From Avril speaks exactly like that's what you've just, I feel like offered.

Thank you so much for doing it.

Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't talk about?

Ooh, what a good documentarian question.

That's

a great question.

You know, you guys did a great job.

It was that, I feel like that was, were some very thorough questions.

Oh,

great.

Thank you.

That hit

on all the things.

It's a fun conversation.

really was.

You're the very, you're the first person to ever quote Annie on

our podcast, and also to start it off with such a bang type.

And I, I, I

appreciate you cited the, the problematic nature of Punjab.

Uh,

it's so problematic.

There's so many things wrong.

So many of those movies in the eighties are, you look back and.

It's

true.

We've come a long way.

It's terrible.

It's important to note that come long way.

There's been a lot of, there's been a lot of progress made.

Punjab is not good.

Yeah.

It's so not good.

Yeah.

But you are great and I really appreciate getting the, the chance to spend time with

you, honestly, and just get to connect.

Thank you for taking the time you.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Okay.

Uh, for Dock Walks, I'm Keith.

And he's Ben.

And I'm Ben.

Thanks a lot everybody.

This has been il.

Bye-bye.

Next time on Dock Walks.

We are walking with visiting filmmakers, Sandy Debowski, straight from their

multi-city self-distribution extravaganza.

With this year's Sabbath queen, it's been 24 years since Sandy exploded on

the scene with trembling before God, and in the last two decades, Sandy

has picked up stories, energy, and ideas, all about making personal films.

That confront society and bringing those films to audiences in your own unique way.

They've got a lot of energy and ideas to share, and it's a

pretty great walk with Sandy.

So I hope that you will join Ben and me here at Doc Walks.

Thanks,

doc Walks is created, produced, and edited by my friend Ben Steinhower of the Bear.

Hello, and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for tuning in.