EP043 – The Nonfiction Hotlist w/ Anna Rau

03.05.2026 - Season: 1 Episode 43

We’re takin’ it to the streets, sure—but this week we’re also takin’ it to the list: the Nonfiction Hotlist, with producer Anna Rau. Anna’s got the scoop on this new endeavor to connect nonfic producers with money and distribution, and she’s here to share just what the Nonfiction Hotlist is and where it’s going. It started when former ESPN producer Adam Neuhaus made a viral LinkedIn post that inspired a community initiative championing unreleased nonfiction storytelling. And it’s growing quickly. Anna explains their brand new Yahoo partnership that’s creating a real home for short films that deserve more than a life relegated to the purgatory of the filmmaker’s hard drive.

Anna has a lot going on right now! She’s been producing commercials and doc-series for years, with her husband Corbett and their company The Range, but she realized there was a language on the finance side of this industry that she still needed to learn. So she enrolled in an MBA program to decode the business, and to find some creative ways to grow… and that growth has yielded big ideas in the form of westward expansion. Anna reveals that she is turning a grad-school assignment into an active business plan by putting an offer in on the legendary Palace Theater in Marfa, TX—the single-screen showroom where GIANT premiered, in the town where Anna and Corbett got married, and where they’ve got big plans to build a cinema-slash-production-hub from the ground up. Producer, MBA grad, entrepreneur, and Media Mogul—now that’s a hot list.

Plus: a ufo-shaped gazebo on the shores of Lady Bird Lake; we eye a colorful ceramic cow; talk abundance over scarcity; and walk away feeling like the future of nonfiction is in very good hands.

***Also deadline for the Yahoo initiative is this Friday if folks want to get something in under the wire, there’s an info Q+A happening tomorrow on instagram live over @nonfictionhotlist

00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: Banter About Banter 02:42 Introducing Anna Rau: Old Friends, New Walks 03:00 The Marfa Wedding Suit Disaster 05:00 Anna’s Career: The Range, PBS, and Beyond 06:30 Enter the Nonfiction Hotlist 08:30 What Is the Hotlist? Origin Story and Mission 10:00 The Blacklist Comparison: Nonfiction’s Turn 12:00 Human-Centered Curation and Painting the Back of the Fence 15:00 Anna’s MBA Journey: Understanding the Money Side 17:48 The Business of Docs: Tangibles, Intangibles, and Impact 20:30 The Yahoo Shorts Partnership: Finding a Home for Short Films 22:00 Why Shorts Are Harder Than Features 25:00 Ben’s Short Film Life and the Distribution Dead End 27:00 Submission Details: Who Should Apply 29:00 The Gazebo Detour: Women Voters and Homeless Photographers 31:00 How the Curation Actually Works 33:30 Anna and Corbett’s Body of Work 36:00 The Huel Howser Tangent We Needed 40:00 Crisis as Opportunity: Abundance Over Scarcity 41:00 The Palace Theater in Marfa: A Big Announcement 44:00 Pivots, Blind Leaps, and Never Having a Real Job 48:00 Community Over Competition 50:30 MBA Takeaways and the Finance of Filmmaking 54:30 Gateway Drug Film: GIANT 56:00 Advice for Young Filmmakers: Curiosity and Joy 58:30 Closing Thoughts and South by Southwest Preview

It's windy.

It's windy,

but these microphones don't ever seem to pick it up,

which is incredible.

Yeah.

Well thanks to our friend, artificial intelligence, there

are so, such crazy filters.

My mic was off for 10 minutes of a recent interview.

Sorry.

And you would never know.

Yeah,

that's crazy.

It's crazy.

just remember I wearing a film story

Overcoming incompetence.

Oh my God.

Thank God.

Thank yes, thank you.

With a

sign power

that is a contender for my biography title.

Barely over.

Barely Overcoming.

If you could hear it out, let us know though.

Please.

It's Every Day is a, is a struggle with incompetence.

You know, who is not incompetent?

Oh, is our guest to this week, Keith Maitland.

This is

very interest.

Our friends.

Your new friend.

My old friend Anna Row.

I've been at Anna's wedding.

She's been at my wedding.

I have been at Anna's premiers.

I think you've come to maybe one of mine, although I feel like you guys

are lately more prolific than I am.

That's hardly true.

Not at all.

No, no.

Executive producer of production company called the Range Current Law student.

No.

You're gonna let me in.

All right.

We're gonna No, yeah.

Didn't let you in.

No, they don't let me in

jerks what they're let in.

Um, I'm gonna stop us anyway though, because you have this habit recently

of just immediately introducing people.

Well, you don't like them.

No, we don't introduced people till after the, the, the musical intro.

We need about a minute and a half of banter, I thought.

And all we had was a beginning, a and I thing that you said you didn't wanna

use and then you segued into the intro.

More ban.

More banter.

You mean more banter.

That wasn't good banter.

You

thought that was good banter.

Do you think, let me ask you this question.

Do you think that saying, we need good banter is going to produce good banter

That's directing buddy banter up.

Somebody's gotta be director around here.

Oh, ouch.

Geez.

Two director, go head to head at one podcast,

two directors, one pod.

See

who will win.

This is the kind of banter, starting with the banter.

Banter, uhhuh, and then a little bit of lighthearted, offensive cajoling.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then the mystery person between us jumps into the conversation.

Sweet.

She says, two directors going head to head, but nobody knows who she

is yet unless they've actually read the title of the episode.

And then they probably do.

That's true.

And they probably have

no, we play the music.

Oh, do, do, do do.

On your left,

you're listening

to Doc

Walks

with Ben and Keith.

Ooh.

And we're back.

Who are we here with?

Ben.

I mean, can I say or should I?

I'm waiting for my cue.

Oh, Ben's a little salty and a little sour.

'cause I stepped on his toes turned, let me introduce somebody

who was not at my wedding.

Yeah, she was at my wedding.

Oh.

And I was at her wedding, which was in Marfa.

It was delightful.

It was the springtime.

And what I remember about this wedding was that I had bought a

new suit for this occasion because Katie and I were newly dating.

And I think this may have been the first wedding that we went to as a couple.

And it's in Marfa and you guys are so stylish.

So I was like, I'm gonna bring it.

We get about three hours outside of town and it dawns on me.

You forgot your kumble bun.

I forgot the whole suit.

The whole suit was in a so bag hanging.

From the hook in my car and I went, no.

And we came up with a plan.

Oh, we have friends who are coming out later.

They can go by and grab it.

I had my car key in my pocket.

No way for the friends to grab the suit.

So what do we do?

We stop at like a, you know, one of those small town clothing

store slash hardware store.

Was there like the For Stockton Beals or something

like that?

Yes, I think good memory.

Wow.

I'm so impressed.

I try, I was

stretch.

I guess if it was Beals, maybe it wasn't a con a, uh, hardware store

sold.

I think they sell, you

tell me you got a full three piece Carhartt suit.

I'm telling you that I bought a black pair of pants and a black blazer.

That's great.

For somewhere around like $70.

Like it was very inexpensive and I felt pretty good about how I looked story.

I was just black.

Looks

great.

Yeah, I pulled it off.

Well.

Very was Texas.

Alright folks, so this is Hannah Row

on the heels, that Marfa anecdote.

Who is Anna?

Ben?

Anna, who are you?

Anna,

that's a great question.

I don't know

Anna.

Well, I'll jump in and explain who you are.

You are a prolific director, producer, executive producer.

You have your own production company with your husband Corbett called The Range.

We do.

You guys make commercials, you make documentaries, you've made narratives.

I believe we

have.

Yeah.

We're dipping our toes in episodics

and episodic.

Oh, that's right.

You've done a lot of PBS series together.

Pbs, I'll tell you one thing you guys.

Live roughly here in Austin.

Although I feel like you're never actually here.

We do.

We live roughly in general, I would say, you know,

living roughly with Anna Row.

Ooh, that's a good title already.

I like it.

Who knows where.

So Anna is a producer and all those things that Ben just said.

And she is also here as a representative of our new friends at the Nonfiction

Hot List, which we are gonna talk all about what that is, what they're

doing, and how you could get involved.

But first, let's just describe this beautiful day, Anna.

Where are we and how does it feel?

What are you seeing?

What in downtown Austin, Texas.

Very different from the Austin from 20 years ago, but I love it nonetheless.

It's quiet out though today.

today.

Quiet.

Like a minted morning.

I know this is, it is usually busier.

Although we we're in that weird spot of like, it's overcast.

It's not warm, but it's not cold.

It's like that February malaise.

Yeah.

In between the Great InBetween.

Yes.

With Anna Rap

also.

And yeah.

Good title.

And so we're coming up here on Riverside and Lamar.

We're gonna, let's hop across here and jump onto the trail.

Let's do it.

We'll go visit our friends at Lady Bird Lake

Long, right.

Anna, if you see any birds you wanna, you want to stop and talk about,

thank

you.

You are welcome to.

Thank you.

If you see some trees that you want to embrace,

thank you.

Feel free.

You can say any mean thing about Ben that you want to, and he doesn't mind.

So, Anna, on this beautiful gray day.

Yes.

We're talking because our close friend and recent doc walk guest, Sally O'Grady,

was telling us that she just had a wonderful experience sharing a

project with the documentary Hot List, the nonfiction hot list.

And I said that is a thing that I follow on Instagram, but I don't

even really know what it is.

Well, thank you for following us.

Yeah.

Then I went back to the, the nonfiction hot list Instagram, and I started

seeing all kinds of interesting content and comments and people, and

it seemed like kind of a New York based initiative to spread the word

about projects to unite a community.

And it felt like there was a lot of overlap between the kind of

feelings that Ben and I have about community, but a lot more action

than just taking people for walks around the lake, which is what we do.

Yeah.

Basically, you guys seem to have it together in a way that

we aspire to have it together.

I song yourselves short, this is very much part of the, part of the

project, you know, getting out there and talking about it, you know?

Yeah.

Well let's, so that's what we're doing.

We're getting out there and talking about it, but let's just, let's

just hit the nail on the head.

Yeah.

What is the nonfiction hot list?

What is she so.

Adam Newhouse posted this LinkedIn post that kinda went a little viral where

he was just like, what's going on?

This was like, like a year ago, 15 months ago?

Mm-hmm.

When the industry in general was incredibly in the doldrums.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, way back then.

Yeah.

I mean, we're still there, but

Yeah.

I was gonna say we're not necessarily on the sunny side of the street.

No, no, no.

I feel like I see the sun behind the dark cloud perhaps, but maybe that's

'cause I've been doing the hors.

So he basically posted this thing that was like, what's going on?

Like, we need to like take our destiny into our own hands.

It was a great post and then everyone really responded to it and he got

us all on a call a week later, and then we were like, let's do a list.

Let's do a list like the blacklist.

Oh,

okay.

But for non-fiction.

And so for those people who dunno what the blacklist is.

Yes.

Could you explain that?

So the Blacklist is an entity that you can submit your script to a narrative script.

And you can get feedback on it.

It gets rated by a group of readers.

You have to pay for that one.

But if it gives a certain rating, then it goes on a distribution list and gets

circulated to all the studio execs.

So there's some like visibility attached to it.

Okay.

Then you get really good feedback.

So it's kinda growth oriented and it's been very successful.

I feel like there's been a lot of projects that have come off of

it that like really got a really nice leg up from that experience.

Can you think of one that are

off top of my head?

Listeners might know.

No, I can't.

I will jump in and just say I've been following the blacklist for a long time

because in addition to nonfiction, I also have a foot in fiction and the blacklist

is started by Franklin Leonard, who, it's an interesting dynamic and that's what

I'm curious like, 'cause I know the hot list compares itself to the blacklist,

but Blacklist is weirdly two entities.

There's the original blacklist, which was Franklin Leonard

fairly informally polling.

Studio execs, a hundred plus studio execs every year saying, what are the best

scripts that you read that didn't get snapped up, that don't have attachments

that aren't in a production mode?

Yes.

Like what are the best unproduced scripts of the year?

And then he would release a A list at the end of the year that said, if you're

looking for good work, look no further.

Here's 25 or so.

But then that was so successful he started the website version you're

talking about where anyone could submit.

You get coverage, you pay a small fee, you get ranked, and then that

placement on the list makes you available often for the first time.

So, which that's more the version of what you guys are talking about.

So we were born off the fir first version.

Okay.

Or like what is out there that doesn't have traction.

Okay.

Like what is dying on the vine for no good reason because it's excellent.

So you mean like either doesn't have distribution or doesn't

have a development deal?

Or just could be

either

what stage in the process or

any of them.

Okay.

It was very broad.

Okay.

So we asked, we had just kind of like a rubric.

Of like, where are you at with your project?

What are your materials like?

Just give us everything.

So we really did want it to be projects of all stages, but

also like projects of all kinds.

That's what we called it, the non-fiction hot list.

Instead it's a documentary, hot documentary hot list.

Okay.

Because we wanted to include podcast or short form series reviews.

Right, okay.

Reality tv, you have like a game show.

That's really

cool.

Okay,

so broad.

We the kind of ethos of it all.

Should we go this way here?

Should we just spin back around, stay on the trail?

Yeah, so that just puts us off trail, right?

Well it just goes around the little league park and then dumps us back

at the bridge basically over there.

And keep going, but we can just turn around and go the other way.

Alright.

All right.

Turn you around, folks.

Sw in.

So it was really just like, how can we, how can we get more things

in the direction they need to go?

Okay.

That was kind of the, the concept of it.

How do we.

Make things more accessible.

How do we widen the stage for people?

Right.

And the thing that was really neat is the group, the original founding

group and people who have joined since it's it's executives, it's

filmmakers, it's audio people, so it's people from like all corners.

Okay.

Which has been really nice.

So like bounces, ideas around like that.

So we did that.

We chose our list.

We're so proud of everyone who's on the list.

They've had all sorts of exciting things happen since I'm working on an outcome

and like kind of year recap on that.

So it's really fun.

And then when we did that, we realized, you know, how many times have you

submitted something either to a festival or like a grant and you don't get it

every time,

big sale.

And you're like, well, like why?

Like, what's going on?

feedback.

Yeah.

So then what we did is we emailed everyone who had applied

and said, Hey, so sorry, like.

There's only so much room on the list, but we really wanna be helpful.

Adam has this wonderful way of saying it as painting the back of the fence.

Oh.

Which is like, how do you just go the extra mile?

How can you, you know, give something extra?

And so we said, do you wanna have a 50 minute call with pot list members?

Send us really this materials that have updated in the last six months.

We'll review it.

We'll get on the phone for 50 minutes.

You can ask us whatever you want.

Wow.

We don't have any money, but we'll answer anything else.

This sounds so cool.

So wait, who, who's Adam?

I'm not familiar with

him.

Adam Newhouse.

He, um, he came was most recently at ESBN.

He had his own shop now.

Okay.

But I think he was recent, most recently at ESPN before that.

But he's phenomenal.

Just excellent at like, getting the big picture into a practical, like next steps.

Okay.

Space and like, everything has just been like the, the vision has just

been like human centered human touch.

Everything was reviewed by I think at least two people.

It had to have been more though because we went through so many rounds.

We just wanted like there to be as many eyes on the original submissions

and then as much support for the people who didn't get in as well.

So it sounds kind of like a co-op

a little bit.

Yeah, it's an interesting way to think about it and like, that's

something I think about a lot too with like media structure

nowadays and like finance, right?

And all that stuff.

It's like have these structures reserving us with a lot of people, or you know?

Right.

So it's been really interesting.

It was really lovely to see how many people were so excited, how

many people got something out of it.

And then it led us to our next and current initiative, which

is this Yahoo partnership.

Well, let's put a pin in that.

Let's not, let's not jump full force, because I wanna stay

in this beginning section.

Sure.

The, you get the call.

Do you get the call or do you spot the hot list in action and make the call?

Like how do you get involved?

So I reached out to Adam because I've, in the past few years,

gone back to school to get my MBA

smart

to try to deal or not deal, but make sense of all of this changing finance.

Yeah, yeah.

How's that going?

What in the m and a is happening?

So I, it was my grand attempt at just being like, huh, so let me understand

capitalism, you're telling me all this private equity is gonna come in

and like change how everything works and then we're gonna do some m and a.

Yeah.

And then like three entities will own everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We'll just do big acronyms.

Um, think heck, I woke up a little early this morning to get my m and As in.

Yeah, there you go.

That's a good alt title.

Big acronyms I'll put in her.

Oh man, that could go some many directions.

Uh, okay.

So you're, you're at school.

You're trying to figure it out because you, because as an independent producer

with a production company of your own, you wanna have a long career.

Yeah.

And it's just like, I've been so fortunate to see different sides of the

industry, see what works really, really well, see what doesn't work so well, and

then try to figure out like, how can I contribute to push the whole thing in a

more equitable and like efficient space where we get the best stories possible

and the most diverse stories possible.

So I met to school and at that time I saw Adam's post and I was going

on kind of like a, I wanna talk to anyone and everyone crusade.

And I was like, Adam, like I don't know you.

This is what I'm doing.

Can we talk?

And he was like, get on the phone.

We're all getting on the phone next week.

And that it was a lot of people who didn't know each other.

Like some people had like connections, but it was a lot of

people who didn't know each other.

We all just kind of jumped in.

So you guys in the.

In the face of all this uncertainty, you guys decided Dina Kala.

Hello.

How are you doing?

I haven't

love forever.

I can say.

I can say the same to you.

Good.

Do you know all these folks?

This is Anna Row.

This is Dina Kala.

Hi Anna.

Nice to meet you.

Oh, thank you.

And this is Keith Maitland.

Keith, this is Dina Ka.

How are you?

It is been while.

Yeah.

You guys have to know each other, right?

Yes,

of course.

So nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

Dina Byebye.

feel that was Dina Kala

down here.

I kind of do.

I always see you whenever I come down here.

Really?

Yeah, I guess that's true.

I'm always like, Ben's here.

Ben's, I actually, I will take that.

That's a, that's a great association.

Thank you.

Okay, so you are at MBA school.

That's a fancy way of saying learning business smarts.

I was trying to learn about, you know, like as we all know, like on our projects,

we know how to do the budget and like deal with that, like run the business.

But I was like, tell me more about this finance side,

right?

With all these LPs.

Yes.

That is the hardest

part for me, for sure.

And I think most filmmakers in general,

it's tough.

Yeah.

Well, even getting to the point where you get to have those conversations, you

work so hard to get across from somebody to get a chance to talk about money.

And then they say, okay, tell me about the money.

And then you go, no, give it to me.

Or this is, this is why I'm so bad at those conversations.

'cause I have to be like brutally honest and be like, this is

really a terrible investment.

Yes.

You're probably not gonna make your money back.

The reason to do this is out of the goodness of your heart.

And because it's a really amazing story and I promise it'll be fun.

And then at that point they, I just

really wanna do it.

Exactly.

They've closed their checkbook and Yes.

Staff, we talk about this a lot at the hot list too, and like from the filmmaker

side, like how do you get around that and like how do you make it a really good

investment and like how do you make it kind of be like a quantifiable thing?

Like Yeah, what we do is like.

It's quality work.

It's not quantity like, oh, I like that.

Oh, this is worth like, like you can't be like, wow, that scene, because you

can, you know how much it costs to make, but you're not, like, that scene

in Jaws was worth like $1 billion.

Right,

right.

You know?

Right.

It's very hard to quantify.

And Keith has a really good perspective on this that I often

quote, 'cause it's a good way to, for me to think about it, is that it's

the tangibles and the intangibles.

Exactly.

And so often when you're investing, of course you want tangibles, but with

what we do, it's about the intangible.

It's uncontrollable.

It's something that you're doing for an artistic expression and not

thinking about the bottom line.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so how do you translate that?

You know,

how do you translate it, Hannah?

Well, what we've been saying is like impact campaigns and forming your

audience as you're making the film.

Yeah.

And all that good stuff.

So they'll know how many.

Eyeballs will see it.

How many conversations will be happening?

Mm-hmm.

How many nonprofits or orgs or legislation will get attention, things like that.

Okay.

Yeah.

So as you're taking all this in and you're exploring this and learning and becoming

like a bolder and stronger and more diversified, business-minded producer, the

hot list comes along and you reach out.

And what did you hope to get out of it by joining up with them?

I just really wanted to learn from as many different people as I could,

and that's what has been just great.

Like all of these different executives who come from

different parts of the ecosystem.

So like some were studio executives, some were distribution executives,

some were sales executives, but they also have filmmakers who like have

wildly different approaches as well.

So it's just going like the best education.

That's really cool.

Super cool.

I love that.

So.

When we reached out to do this interview with you, you said, oh, no, no, no.

Let's wait a couple of weeks because we have a big announcement.

Yes.

Coming news coming for the hot list.

Big news.

And so the big news has just come out.

Yes.

And it is

a shorts curation with Yahoo.

Okay.

So Yahoo.

You guys partnered with Yahoo.

Yes.

Yahoo.

Yahoo Media Group.

Yes.

And so they were like, we would love, we see what you've been doing.

We'd love to have you guys help us with the curation.

And if you go to the Nonfiction Hot List website, you'll see the different

categories, all the rules, what you get out of it, all that good stuff.

But they, we are so excited about it because there's not enough

space out there for shorts.

Mm. Right, right.

Everyone programs their features.

There's really not a lot of space for shorts.

Right.

And shorts are wild.

Like I personally think shorts are harder than features.

I agree.

Interesting.

Say more about that,

because why?

It's like you don't have as much time to like hook someone in.

Right.

Like tell the story and leave them with a thought.

That's a lot.

And it's ironic, right?

Because so much of our life now, our media consumption habits

are around short form content.

Absolutely.

Right?

Yeah.

So like it seems like a good time potentially for shorts.

Absolutely.

I was reading something this morning that was like, film professors say that

they can't get their films students to watch the full films anymore.

Oh wow.

Is that right?

I was like, yikes.

Yeah.

I mean, but that makes sense.

Like if you were looking at your phone for hours a day and your phone is feeding

you content that's basically 60 seconds.

Yeah.

You know, then you're gonna get very used to seeing lots of different things

and it's gonna be harder for you to.

Yeah, hold your attention on something for

Yeah, no, we've crippled ourselves and our ability to kind of focus and I, you

know, people of our advanced age, at least mine, maybe still have a shred

of long form, you know, ability as far as like audience membering, that's

good.

But our kids and the generations below us, the young people that are working in

my office, they all like in and out fast.

I mean, I interviewed an editor, a really talented editor a couple

years ago who I, who I'm working with on a series of shorts.

And she said, when I told her, we were thinking, you know, putting together

this 90 minute feature and is that something she'd be interested in?

And it would be kind of like a three to four year process to bring it to life.

She said, 90 minutes, I'm thinking 90 seconds.

Like, you know, anything longer than two and a half minutes is what's next.

Yeah, yeah.

And, but this isn't that.

And that's the thing.

I, I always wanna draw the distinction, right.

Thinking of a feature mindset and thinking about kind of classical doc

shorts is different than content and it's different than TikTok and it's

different than 92nd or 32nd like hits

total.

It's storytelling with depth.

But I agree with you that shorts are difficult because I feel like we've

all been trained on how to understand long form story with a three act

structure with the beginning of an end and a kind of climactic moment

and a takeaway, and either a call to action or an emotional resonance.

And in short form, which can be anywhere from 90 seconds, two and a

half minutes, six and a half minutes, nine and a half minutes, 12 and a half

minutes, 17 minutes, 22 minutes, 40 minutes is still considered a short,

which is wild these days.

Although what is same green call that

he called it?

A sh Long?

A short long.

I agree.

I've done just a couple of shorts in 20 years and I have

been confused by the process.

I don't know.

Somebody told me a long time ago that a perfect short, he, he said,

when you're thinking of a long.

You gotta have a beginning, middle, and an end.

A perfect short has two of the three.

Yeah.

It's either a beginning and a middle.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And you drop people off in a place that allows them to pick

it up and go, or more frequently.

It's a middle and an end.

Yeah.

I like that.

I haven't figured out what to do with that dollar, but that'll fit it.

I love it though.

Oh, I, unlike you, Keith, have made a frustrating, or not frustrating.

I, I've made a lot of short films and the thing that I like about them

is what I also like about making commercials, which is that you dip

into this world really intensely for a relatively short period of time.

Mm-hmm.

And you tell the best story you can, the most potent version of what it's like to

be there in that moment and that story.

And then you're asked, so it doesn't require the three to four

year commitment that you were talking about of like a, a feature.

And I have been very lucky in that a lot of my shorts have careered at festivals.

And some people have seen them relatively, I guess, but.

Then there's nowhere for them to go.

Yeah.

Once you make them and they sort of have that initial like, you know, entree

into the world, there's really that.

That's it.

And so I'm really curious about what you guys are gonna do.

Where this curation is coming up.

Yeah, where, where it goes.

Yeah.

So it's gonna go on Yahoo's channels basically.

Okay.

Which are,

I would refer to the website for specifically what goes where.

But like it's kind of, they have like a different kind of video.

I feel like it's similar.

I might be speaking outta turn here, but it's similar how like

slim show is on New York off docks.

Yeah.

I dunno.

We worked on a short dock actually that was called Slow to Show,

which was about the low rider.

Oh, I love that one.

Cold in Odessa.

Well we, I roped you Ann.

He kicking and screaming.

I don't think you wanted to, but I wasn't gonna let you do not be a part of it.

Want to.

Her husband Corbett shot it.

Got it.

Yeah.

And shot it beautifully.

And it was a co-production between the bear and the range.

Yes, it has this day.

Wild.

Yeah.

So I read, so Isis from the Nonfiction Hot List emailed me and I read the

kind of, you know, I like to do a lot of preparation for these walks.

Well done.

And this is Isis Masu, is that, that how you say her last?

I'm right.

And, uh, she, she's a member of the nonfiction Hot list with you.

Yeah.

And she, she kind of laid out what this new initiative is.

Oh, good.

And one of the things that's exciting, I think for our listeners is that

really this is for finding a home for short films that are already complete.

These are films that have been made be three between 2023.

Yes.

And March, 2026,

last three years are eligible, which is great.

I feel like.

Yeah, no, that's the thing is if you've made a short and if you have already

played at some festivals and you kind of did your run and now you're not sure

what to do with that short or if you made something in film school and you got

your, your, your a plus and your diploma out of it, but yeah, you didn't know.

How to break into the industry with this thing you work so hard to create,

which no one does.

No, I think it's, it's, it's, well, or if you're like me, you're like an old salty,

you know, filmmaker who tried to start a feature and realize it wasn't a feature.

It was just, it was a short, it was a story worth telling, but it wasn't,

it didn't demand three to four years.

Yes.

Right.

What do you do with those, those pieces now that they're done?

And so this list is, the hot list is offering a curatorial option.

Yes.

And it's divided by category.

Yes.

There's environmental films, there's nature films, there's

political films, there's, there's community and social And sports.

Sports, yeah.

Play

sports.

Always.

Sports.

And so I thought it was really neat when I saw it because, you know, my first

instinct is like, oh, maybe this is this thing that's gonna kick me in the

ass to get started on something new.

good.

But then I looked at it and I was like, well this isn't really

about starting something new.

This is about like honoring what's already been made.

Yeah.

And finding a home for it.

And I thought, well that's actually a smarter first step.

I don't have a short that I made in the last three years.

I don't either.

That's only 'cause I'm lazy and I haven't.

Done much with myself.

It's true.

You are lazy and you really haven't done much with yourself with Anna Rail.

Um, so now that we have announced this via Yahoo and that we didn't announce it,

they announced it about a month before.

You're seeing this, we are just coming.

We're painting the back side of the fence on this one.

That's right.

We're trying to help spread the word.

Uh,

we're

spreading the word on it about this initiative.

How many submissions do you think you guys will be dealing with and,

and what's gonna be the process for curating this like avalanche of ideas?

That's,

and also before you answer that, can we go to this gazebo?

I love, this is like one of my favorite structures in all of us.

It's a great gazebo.

Well, this gazebo is in honor of the women voters of Texas, I think in 1954.

Is that right?

I believe so.

There's a plaque in there.

Wow.

Um,

we shot sweeping of short films.

I shot a scene in here for a short film I made years ago

called The Superlative Light.

It was about a photographer who.

Was homeless and he rose to prominence by taking photos of

the places where he slept outside.

Oh, warm up.

Sorry.

Here it is real quick.

Warm up the National Association of Women in Construction, uh, in

1969, not 54, which makes sense.

It has kind of that 1969, uh,

yeah,

like Atomic UFO.

It's a vibe.

Yeah.

You

know, native American Wigwam meets flying saucer.

Ooh, I like that.

Wigwam meets flying saucer.

Yeah.

And actually if you stand right in the middle of this thing, this is

what I remember, and this is what his photograph was, is looking right

up into the peak of this gazebo.

Oh, really?

Is really cool.

Look at that.

It is really cool pattern.

Love it.

We should, we should get a photo out here with this thing in the background.

Oh, we should.

That's a great idea.

It's so cool.

Yeah.

And this beautiful.

And then of course, the view here.

Yeah.

Okay.

I was asking you about how the curation, like, how are you guys gonna handle Yeah.

The avalanche of submissions that you're undoubtedly gonna get.

Well, can I just point out something interesting before you answer that?

Yeah.

This is a structure that's dedicated to an idea that's about

bringing community together and appreciating the beauty around us.

And I feel like that's, in a way, what we're talking about

with the non-fiction hot list.

Right?

Not

appropriate.

Yeah.

You really like did

Yeah.

In a non-SEC that we'll probably edit out.

I saw a dude giving another dude a hand jobb on that be

not quite as sweet.

Still sweet.

That's a, that's a communal gesture.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

It was gestural.

Look at that bird.

Oh, don't try to make this about birds.

So the, we were gonna have a bird pit

away.

We were gonna, I thought this was gonna be a bird free podcast.

How could it be?

Look at these ties.

He's after it.

Are those loons?

Ben,

your guess is as good as mine, Keith.

Well, ju Okay.

Well, so wait a second.

I rudely interrupted us to talk gazebos,

but we appreciate

it when you were explaining the submission process and how are

we gonna, what are we gonna do?

Yeah.

Uh, it's gonna just be all human reviewers again.

Okay.

Minimum two people will review at each round.

Okay.

There's like a, there is like a rubric that we use, but it's

not meant to be mechanical.

It's meant to just help ground the overarching thoughts.

There's, it's basically like a lot of, it's very notes heavy.

And then what we did on the hot list, which I believe we'll be doing again

on this version is everyone meets every week and tells through what

they reviewed that week and says like,

wow,

I've seen this, I have this, some questions about this.

I need another opinion on this one.

Or like, I watched this, but I know your background is in this,

so you should take a look at it.

And it's very, it's just very collaborative in that way.

Man.

I have to say, knowing you for a long time, you are the type of person who

is very organized, who gets involved in film projects and groups like this, and

really like takes them to the next level.

And I'm just reflecting, like hearing that this is about a year old.

This sounds pretty legit.

Like you guys really have your, your stuff together, ducks in

a row, your ducks in a row.

You know, I have to give all that credit, honestly, to Adam and Isis

and Aaron, another person, and Carol, there's a group of people who have

just been just the backbone of it.

Mm-hmm.

Where it's like, if there's a question like how ISIS emailed

you, I mean, and it's just this.

This human touch at every possible corner.

And that ISIS is incredible.

I mean, I think you were,

yeah, I've worked with her in the past.

She did some real people casting for this wild commercial that we did.

So where, yeah.

Anyways, go ahead.

I'll save you the description.

She's good at taking just like these huge quantities of information.

Yeah.

And making it make sense and making it searchable and figureoutable.

And so, I mean, it was, it's incredible to have seen how they put it all together.

So I can't take credit for the organization.

I'm just pleased to be able to help how and where I can, but,

well, let's talk about you a little bit.

So you and Corbett, your husband, have made lots and lots of nonfiction work.

So give our listeners like a punch list, like the what,

how they might know your work.

Let's see how they might know our work.

Well, or just like your, describe some of your favorite projects, I

guess.

Sure.

So I think the thing that really anchored our life most recently was a

show called Tending Nature that we did.

So PBS, which was I think four or five years, we spent going up and down

California visiting with different tribes in the region, talking about

traditional ecological knowledge.

And that was with the Autry as well.

So we got to be part of a big exhibit in education program.

And then, but

And And that was for, you said it was for PBS, right?

It was a national PBS show.

Yeah.

Hour long.

was, I think it was originally half hour episodes, and then we did an hour long

special, I wanna say that's what happened.

Maybe it was hour long.

Okay.

COVID had got me.

Yeah.

Are you guys really feeling the cutting of funding for CPB?

I mean, it's totally, I think, just totally different place now.

I know that there was a lot of.

Letting go that happened.

Mm-hmm.

So it's been interesting.

I mean, but A PBS has been through a bunch of different iterations, so

yeah.

Let's just see what the next one is.

Okay.

Yeah.

But we kind of have pivoted away from that recently from PBS.

We also did a show called Art Bound for many years with them, which was

like a variety of different, like California Arts and Culture Copts.

Right.

Which was fun.

Are you from California?

No, I'm from here.

Oh.

But Corbett is from California,

Corbitt is from California.

And we linked up with them when we lived in LA for five years.

So that's how that all started.

Yeah.

And we, for a brief time, we're working on a documentary about Huel Hauser.

Yes.

Who I, I would still love to see that project happen someday.

do too.

I'm so desperate to see that happen.

He is.

He's amazing.

He's a reoccurring character on The Simpsons.

They

do, yeah.

Well, I guess reoccurring is maybe the wrong way to say it, but he's

been on The Simpsons multiple times.

He's like this beloved.

PBS host.

Yeah.

Who had a show called the, what was it called?

Gold,

California Gold

or something.

California Gold.

And he would go to like a car wash in Encino and be like, this car

wash has been here since 1937.

And he would make a entire 30 minute episode out of him walking

around with a stick mic and talking to people at the car wash.

And it was that right up your alley?

It was delightful.

Yeah.

He is so excited about every single thing and every person.

And he uncovers all of these like magical stories just by being this like

sort of curious spirit and is great.

Yeah.

And like he's, so the way he appears is like very, like he kind of appears

like a conservative white man.

Yes.

But like changed.

even has a flat top.

Yeah.

But like his like interface is like.

Like that at all.

I would say no.

No.

So he's a cool character.

Yeah.

Anyways, sorry to digress.

So you, you were making a Nature Doc series with PBS,

you've been doing Art Bound.

You said

We did Art Bound.

I'm like, what else have we been doing?

Well Corbett

just finished the feature.

What?

Remind me of the title.

Good moment.

It's about a quadriplegic man who broke the record for longest distance.

Traveled in one day.

Okay.

In a sip and puff wheelchair.

Alright.

So that was fun.

So we're working on that.

And then years ago we did a documentary on a soul group that foreman

recorded in prison in the seventies,

which is awesome

fun.

I love that movie.

It's fun.

We're trying to adapt that one now into like a movie.

Sweet.

So, and then on top of this, you guys have a commercial production

company called The Range, and you guys do commercials for like.

Apple.

And you did a music video for Paul McCartney and Yes,

we did a lot of music videos back in the day.

Then we then Waxahatchee broke us out of retirement.

Those of those were fun.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

You did those with, uh, Nick Simon, I, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah.

So that, that was our return to music video.

I love it.

After 10 years,

triumphant return.

Yes.

And then like, I write some things on the side too, so always kind of

playing with that sort of thing.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, business school.

What, what is, what kind of grabs you the most?

Like, I mean, every filmmaker I know and everybody we have on

this podcast wears multiple hats.

But like, where is your ultimate passion and, and what kind of like drives, when

you think about like, we're in a new year.

Yeah.

What are, what are you gonna aim at most squarely?

Yeah.

From your heart.

So, I mean, I've always wanted to, like, I've always wanted to

be part of the creative side.

I've always wanted to focus on directing, but I think I inherently

lean to the producing side.

So I've kind of been more of like a creative producer role and then now just

trying to grow that into more like of an institutional space through the company.

You know, 10 years ago when they started the company to begin with, it was because

we had all these friends doing fabulous things, but no one had a insurance policy.

So we were like running around and like all of the big, working for all

the big commercial production houses.

Right.

But we didn't wanna like give them our IT when we were making our stuff.

So really let's just start a company.

Yeah.

And now it feels a little bit like a similar moment where

it's like, what's going on?

mm-hmm.

This is a mess.

And like we're all trying to figure out what to do.

Yep.

So now we're kind of trying to do 2.0.

It's at, right.

Yeah.

Well, and it sounds like you guys are really onto something and I, I think

the nonfiction hot list is a good example of how I tend to think of, of

these moments of transition and mm-hmm.

Seeming crisis is that.

Historically, those moments bring about really dynamic works of art.

Good stuff,

good stuff.

Yeah.

And it's hard in the moment and it doesn't necessarily make it okay for people who

are struggling to pay their bills and any, you know, variety of other hardships

right now, but it forces you to adapt.

Mm-hmm.

And to create community in a new way.

And that's always good.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's, it's been really interesting.

And then it was really interesting as I was diving into all of

this, and then with the theater.

Now I'm like, okay, well what happens on like the theatrical side?

Oh, well wait a second.

that's a nice, that's a nice little segue.

Yes.

Tell us what you mean about the theater.

See, you know, Anna says she wants to get into more directing and I feel

like she just subtly directed us and not with like the blunt edge object

that I started this podcast with.

Telling Ben banter up,

banter,

banter more Ben, funny banter, banter, steinhower, calling banter Stein Bauer.

That's good.

I'm not good at banter.

Uh, but no, Anna just like suddenly and with the theater, she says with the

theater and that what you don't know is right before this podcast began.

Right before we started rolling, Anna said, I have exciting news that

may not even happen, but it might.

And we said, well, tell us about it and we'll edit it out if it doesn't happen.

Or maybe we'll make a comment on it.

Either way.

Movie magic.

There you go.

What is the exciting news and tell us about the theater.

Yes.

So for people who are familiar with Marfa, they might be familiar with the

Palace Sign that's right on Main Street.

Marfa Texas.

Marfa Texas, yeah.

Art Outpost in West Texas.

Lots of people are familiar with it, but let's assume a wide ranging international

audience isn't completely familiar.

Yes, yes.

Home of Donald Judd, what West Texas Hall.

A Donald Jud, I should say.

Yes.

Small Texas town.

Known for, it's like a, like an arts.

You said outpost.

What?

It is like a destination.

Yeah.

People come from all over the world to go to this tiny west Texas

town to tour the art galleries

and just have space.

There's also some sound studios going in there.

Oh,

really?

Lot going on.

Oh, and

if you ever saw the movie Giant with James Dean and Liz Taylor.

Liz Taylor Rock Hudson,

that was the shooting location.

And the theater you're describing is right across the street from the hotel

that they all lived in while Mecu Giant.

Yes.

The Palace Theater.

What's going on in Marfa?

What's going on with the Palace Theater?

Why are we talking about this?

So the Palace for the first time, I think in 40 years, has come up for sale.

And Corbett and I, we have had this idea to move to Marfa and

start a theater for a long time.

And while that was our plan to start figuring out this summer

when the palace came on the market, we were like, well, obviously we

must try and make it happen there.

Yes.

So we are putting an offer in on the Palace Theater.

Wow.

Putting an offer on the Palace Theater.

Incredible.

Why are you doing that?

What do you wanna do with the Palace Theater?

So it'll turn into a cinema theater, also a sound stage.

Also a post-production suite.

Oh, okay.

And our STR rental, so,

oh,

you can come out there film.

It'll be a production hub.

Okay.

But it'll also be like the it regular.

Cinema.

is it big enough?

Does it have more than just the screen and the seats?

Like does it have like, another part of the building?

right now it

doesn't

even

have the, the screen in the seats, right?

Oh, really?

It's like set up right now is two apartments in a gallery space, isn't it?

Oh.

With the heavy quotes on everything.

Yeah.

I know.

It was a, it was a long time home Yes.

Of a, of a prominent marfa artist.

Yes.

And I've been in the theater.

I've been, I mean, I've been in the space probably 15 years ago.

It, to look at art

probably look very different.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it's in, it's gonna need some love.

Okay.

But it's on the plus side of that.

It's a blank slate.

Right.

So, yeah.

And describe to us the life that you're living a year or two from

now, if the sale goes through and your plans come into fruition.

Yeah.

Where does that find you?

Do you think?

So one year.

Very dirty, covered in drywall.

Realistic.

That's the best case scenario.

Best case scenario you're in like some dirty coveralls with like, uh, yeah.

Sit on your face.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then two years from now, we will all be there in July

watching a movie together.

Yes.

Oh, I love that.

We should make a movie and then watch it.

Hey,

I like this.

That's a novel idea, Keith.

Yeah,

let's try to make movies.

Let's, I'm gonna start today, right after this.

We got two years.

I got a short to make for the hot list and I got a feature to make for the palace.

You got two.

You gotta get on

it,

Anna.

It feels like.

So band and Anna obviously go back.

I am just catching up.

It feels like you have taken a lot of pivots.

You've zigged and zagged and kind of made a path for yourself.

And I just wonder if you kind of could take the 30,000 foot view.

And, and pinpoint a couple of those pivots.

Like obviously you went to NBA school, obviously you're talking

about expanding your real estate empire and becoming a, an exhibitor.

How do you make a pivot like that?

A lot of times people are afraid to, to get off the path that they

set for themselves and to change up.

How do you make a pivot and what have you learned when you've done it?

We were talking about this the other day, and you know, it's

a lot of blind leaps of faith.

It's true.

But the key is if you pair that with really, really hard work, um, my grandpa

used to say it was like, uh, luck is when opportunity meets preparation.

Yep,

yep.

And that's really how we've lived our entire lives.

Also, like it's, I'm a very weird case because this is all I've ever done.

Like I, I never really had, like

you've never

had a job.

Real job.

Like I worked at Caviar where it is actually where we first met.

We weirdly, when we met in person for the first time,

it's like 2010.

Anna and Corbett were both like Ben Steinhower.

I used to make reels for you when Caviar, a production company in Los

Angeles that I was working with for a brief time when I lived out there

would put me up for commercial jobs and they would have Corbett and Anna put

together reels of my work to send out.

So they knew me through making those reels, which was wild to me.

We met,

cor did the reels.

I did your budgets.

Oh, you did?

So you guys, we really knew each other intimately.

All these years later.

That's right.

But yeah, that, that was my one and no length like job before we started.

I love that you're saying that because at Thanksgiving this year we went around

the table and we talked about what we were thankful for and everybody said, you

know, health and family and those things.

And I, my answer was, I am grateful that I'm almost 50.

And I've never had a real job.

Yeah.

And I mean, I've like been a dishwasher and I, you know, like I've done other,

like small jobs as I was like coming of age and getting my first jobs.

But like I have been lucky enough to figure out how to

make a living in this business

Yeah.

For my adult life.

And that is an accomplishment in and of itself.

I completely agree.

And it requires a lot of flexibility and a lot truly just hard word.

I mean, it sounds like a cop out answer, but like being in this

program with people who are on that very traditional path of like

the MBA program.

Yeah.

And entry level, the management to upper management to C-suite.

Like they're on a very tra like traditional trajectory.

So like if you compare us, they're like, what are you doing?

But, and they're always like, that song's so nice.

But like last week they, we were on the ski trip.

Yeah.

We were skiing all day and I was doing financial projections.

So it's like there's a trade off, you know?

Right.

It's true.

And, uh, depends on how you want to spend your time.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

So it's very hard work, but it's hard work that I love doing and I love the

opportunity that you can share with other people if you just keep after it.

Because it's like, so often I feel like there's this misconception of like,

there's not enough for everyone, you know?

Right.

But like there's, it's so competitive.

Like if you got in, I don't get in

Right.

Or that sort of thing.

Zero sum.

Yeah.

And I just really don't think the world is that way.

Not very little.

But you know, I, I love that you pointing that out.

Yeah.

Because it is, we live in a world of rejection mm-hmm.

When we do this work.

Mm-hmm.

And simultaneously that there's a world of competition and while there are

certain finite opportunities, right.

Like festival slots, grant application, or you know, grant awardees, the.

The main thing that we want as individuals as storytellers is hearts, eyeballs.

Yeah.

You know, buy-in audience.

Yes.

And that is unlimited,

right?

Yes.

And, and so anything that we can do to build cooperation and build

community like actually opens the, opens those opportunities up.

And even though like Ben and I may compete for the same festival

slot, we may compete for the same

for the wittiest banter.

Well, there's no competition there, Ben.

Geez.

Come on.

He just patted himself on the back.

But that big long arms, but he missed my back is right here.

We can compete, but we can also lift each other up.

And, and the overwhelming majority of what we're aimed for is, is facilitated

through community and through cooperation.

Yes, absolutely.

And I'm of the spirit too that like the more you do that and more you like lift

other people up and you lift the competi.

You're also lifting yourself up

for sure.

You're lifting your own standards.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, you're definitely adding to the quality of your life, that's for sure.

You are making yourself a much more satisfied and secure person in doing that.

Yes.

Yeah, and I love that you had that abundance mindset.

I have heard that described before as like either scarcity or abundance,

and that people have a lot of fear around money or status or those things.

It is because they think that there's only so much of it.

Mm-hmm.

And then it's a competition for it.

But if you can shift to thinking more like you're describing of an abundance

mindset where no, we're all in this together and we can all help each

other and rising tide lift all boats.

Yes.

Then the more paradoxically experiences become available to you, you know?

Absolutely.

And I mean, in particular talking about filmmaking, like is a team sport.

Exactly.

You know, like

Zachary,

so it all makes, that's.

It's where I always land.

I love it.

What are you getting, you think out of this MBA program and how much longer do

you have in it and what do you think by the time it's done or where you're at so

far, like what do you think you've gained?

Yeah.

And was it worth it?

It was.

It was very hard.

I don't know what I was thinking because I got there on day one and

they were like, so we're gonna do like regressive statistics and calculus.

And I was like,

help.

Yeah.

I went to film school, so that was fun.

Good, good brain stretch.

But I knew that I wanted to start asking for investment and I didn't feel

comfortable doing that unless I really understood what that meant, how that

functioned and you know, how to make that make best on that for all my investors.

Mm.

And so that was the main goal.

And as we've been having these conversations over the past four

days, I've really been able to.

Answer any questions that these investors have had in a very like grounded way.

And so that feels really good.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

So these last four days, you're talking about the in the theater,

like developing this theater concept?

Yeah.

Wow.

And so you're right in the heart of a fast moving train.

Yeah.

So my independent, so I'm done in two months with the program, and this last

semester was really supposed to just be spent putting this plan together

where I could start fundraising in May, but best and finals due Friday.

So,

oh,

we're doing it now.

Oh man.

I feel like that's such Murphy's law.

Yes.

You know, with what we do, it's always when you're the busiest

that you have to get even busier.

Yes, yes.

To make an opportunity Ha or take advantage of an opportunity.

Yeah.

So it's been good.

I'm really happy I did it.

I'm also just really happy I have that background now to be

helpful to other people like,

right.

I mean, I don't know.

When y'all went to sc, did y'all give a Bono to film for

you?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't, no.

No.

I was an English major.

I did a double whammy.

I did an undergrad and got my MFA.

Yeah,

but they don't like, at Emerson, at least, like they kind of taught us budgeting.

They didn't teach us anything about finance.

Same, I mean ut definitely we did.

We did budgets and sort of projections.

But I mean, I couldn't do that now, to be honest with you.

With

like the whole like it's this whole like participation split and stuff like that.

Yeah,

like a waterfall.

Waterfall.

Gotta know your waterfall.

Action.

Can we take, can we just acknowledge this beautiful cow,

gorgeous.

This is a blue and white ceramic looking probably fiberglass cow

made by Jan Heaton called Kella

Kella.

We're here outside the top for theater at the Zach Scott theatrical Complex.

If you play South by Southwest, you might find your film playing

right there at the top for Ben.

And I saw Margaret Brown's.

It's episodic.

Yes, we do yogurt shop murders.

Yes, we do premier

there.

Last year,

future guest on Dock Walk.

I sure forget Mark Brown on this dock walk.

It shall happen.

It will happen.

So you, your finals are due, you're putting together the finishing

touches on this great plant.

And what else do you have in, in, in the works creatively as far as projects?

Or is anything you're, you're in production on or in development

on that you wanna talk about?

Let's see.

We're kind of a clean slate right now, which is really, you've got

a lot going on.

Are you taking pitches or are you, is everything you do kind of self generated?

Yes, absolutely.

Taking pitches, particularly as we move into this next phase, because

part of what we wanna fundraise for and build out is a plan to be able

to help facilitate things build out.

Oh, that's

great.

That world.

So are you talking about the non-fiction hot list in particular

or are you in corporate or both?

The range.

The range,

yeah.

Got it.

The non-fiction hot list, we're trying to figure out that next

phase, but it's called belief.

A little ways in the distance.

Yeah.

Well, things like this Yahoo deal is so new.

You, you get a chance to see how that

Yeah.

Plays out.

Right?

Yeah.

And, and how, how many projects that serves and how we find those films.

And yeah.

I think we'll update folks.

We're gonna post about it on our social media and we will direct

our audience towards all the websites and links you've described.

Yeah.

If you're tuning in because you're a nonfiction hot List fan, or you're an Anna

fan, we do this podcast every week and we walk with other filmmakers and executives.

That's right.

Uh, so we hope that you'll stick around and that you will join us on our socials.

But before we wrap up this episode, Anna,

yes.

I wanna know, Ben wants to know, our audience wants to know what is the

gateway drug film, the documentary or nonfiction film project that

kind of blew your mind that said, this is the world I wanna be in.

The whole reason I'm the filmmaker is because of giant.

Wow.

Giant, Dr. Morph.

That was a, an unexpected answer.

Why Giant I?

My, so when I was little, we didn't have cable.

My mom would just play the epics.

Okay.

So it was like greatest show on earth, you know?

Right.

That stuff.

Yeah.

I just loved Giant.

I thought it was a perfect film.

I loved like the story of it.

I loved how progressive it was.

I thought it was so smart.

Yeah.

And so brave.

Mm-hmm.

It's this mix of like forward thinking and legacy that I think is just so Texan

interesting.

Uh, so that was the whole thing for me.

I was like, this is, this is all I wanna do.

And so it's no coincidence that you now split time between here

and Marfa and you're making films.

I love it.

And giant premier in Marfa at the cal.

No way.

Full circle.

Circle.

That is beautiful.

Yeah.

Okay.

So advice for young filmmakers starting out.

What would your advice be?

Say yes.

Show up early, stay late.

Work hard, be incredibly curious.

If you do things with curiosity and joy, you'll stand out so fast.

So fast.

I love that.

That

is great advice.

I'm gonna push back on, show up early.

'cause I do not appreciate when people show early to my office,

I'm never ready for them.

Wait outside.

But I think what you're saying is enthusiasm.

And I a hundred percent agree with that.

Like I will take enthusiasm over like a skillset or an advanced degree any day.

If somebody's excited to be there and and bringing that energy.

I want that around.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean you can't beat that.

And this is the thing too, and this goes beyond filmmaking.

If you're doing something and you're not enthusiastic about it, go find

something you are enthusiastic or about.

Right.

You know,

a hundred percent

life is too short.

Yeah.

Lead with passion, right?

Yes.

Lead by learning.

I was on a Zoom call.

At some point in the last six months and somebody said, lead by learning.

And I wrote that down on a little.

I keep a stack of paint chips that I steal from Home Depot.

Nice.

As my note cards.

I love this.

They're colorful and free and I just found one yesterday.

It just said Lead by learning.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't know who said it, I know I didn't say it, but it's

such a way to kind of engage your passion by, by making curiosity.

Yes.

Like your key.

Yes.

And it sounds like that's what you're saying

too.

Absolutely.

Because also truly nobody knows what they're doing.

Nobody knows anything has that flag behind him on calls where it says

Nobody knows what William Goldman,

I love

it.

Like, okay, so we got some advice, we got some gateway drug.

What is the thing that you are just like passionate about right now?

What is the, the thought that is rotating over and over in your mind?

What can't you stop thinking about?

I'm honestly actually excited about everything we're seeing

in the industry right now.

Oh.

Like it's very dim and gloo, but to your point from earlier.

It's an opportunity.

Yeah.

I mean, think about it like Hollywood's only like what, 120 years old,

right?

I, I'd love that you're saying that.

Me too.

There has never been a moment where this industry has stood still.

No.

So there isn't some, there is no like make Hollywood great again moment.

There's nothing, there's nothing like that right.

In this world.

Like life is changed.

It's constant weakness.

So you were saying there's an opportunity and you're

optimistic about that opportunity.

Yes.

And I'm excited to see like, I mean the Daniels and everything everywhere.

Like yeah.

That was like a total,

that movie is so incredible.

You know, everything everywhere.

All at once.

Yeah.

But like also again, like so much hard work.

So much posted notes.

Yeah.

I'm like, I think if we all just keep at it, it's gonna be super cool, you know?

I love that.

What an amazing place to end.

Yeah.

'cause I just wanna give you a squeeze after that.

Let's stick at it.

That's great.

We're gonna stay at it.

We are gonna see you going to the nonfiction hot list and

submitting your short films,

please.

Anna's gonna see you waiting in line to buy a ticket at the Palace Theater.

Yes.

Uh,

fingers crossed

a year and a half from now, maybe sooner.

And then where are people gonna see you?

Hopefully in line to buy a ticket at the Palace Theater and a year and a half.

I hope we're still doing this.

I hope I'm in production even further on the two projects I have right now.

And I hope that I am doing it with as much joy and enthusiasm as you have

and you described today re Great.

Well thanks for having with you guys so far.

This

is so much.

Sorry

if I say next time on Dock Walks.

Next time on Dock Walks.

We're going to South by Southwest

with, we don't know.

We're gonna have fun at South by Southwest.

We're gonna talk to lot to people.

We appreciate you guys.

We'll catch you there.

We appreciate you, Anna.

Appreciate you, babe.

Oh, do you.

Was of the time.

Banter more.

More banter.

Bye-bye.

Next time on Dock Walks.

Keith is solo on this one, but he's not alone.

He is walking with Claudette Godfrey, the Vice President of Film and

Television of South by Southwest, and they are giving you a preview of the

South by Southwest Film Festival 2026.

So you are not gonna wanna miss that one.

I am envious that Keith got to walk with Claudette.

I'm sorry I couldn't be there, but I'm there in spirit and I hope you

guys are there with us next week.

On Doc Walks.

Doc Walks is created, produced, and edited by my friend Ben Steinhower of the Bear.

Hello and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for tuning in.