EP04 – Gardener (Not A Carpenter)

Back from Sundance and inspired by Diane Quon’s email to Morgan Neville, Ben & Keith discuss the impact of seeking career guidance in their early days as doc-makers. Join us for a walk around Austin’s Ladybird Lake and a lively conversation about outreach and insights for aspiring and established documentary filmmakers alike.

00:00 Starting the Journey: Back to Where It All Began

00:14 Post-Sundance Reflections and Illness

01:18 Networking at Sundance: Strategies and Insights

02:36 The Power of Reaching Out: Diane Quon’s Story

04:46 Personal Experiences: Seeking Advice from Filmmakers

07:26 Wise Words from Albert Maysles: Love Your Subject

10:38 Exploring Austin: The Bat Bridge and New Projects

17:44 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers: Practical Tips

19:41 The Power of Encouragement

21:07 Seeking Advice and Building Relationships

23:36 The Importance of Community

30:35 Practical Tips for Aspiring Filmmakers

33:44 Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes

All right, here we are back where it all began.

Walking along the hiking bike trail.

That's Lady Bird Lake over my left shoulder, and that's downtown Austin.

And that is Keith Maitland, that's me.

And I am Ben Steinbauer, that's him.

And we are on a walk here, as Keith said, around downtown Austin Post Sundance,

where, uh, I got very, very sick and got

sick.

I

got

sick,

you know, and it.

Um, I think we got sick at the same time because we were at all the same

parties and then we commuted together to the airport in a small car.

And the interesting thing though is that Sally O'Grady, who was

there with us, did not get sick.

Did Amy get sick?

Amy Bench.

And I don't think Amy got sick.

Did Oe Esid get sick?

I don't think Oe got sick.

Did Conan O'Brien get sick?

Well.

He's been sick.

Well, he was sick of us, so it took one second to to set in.

I see what you did there.

I like it.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walk with Ben and Keith.

Lemme tell you one of my favorite things about going to Sundance,

and this is the best part about it.

You don't even have to go to Sundance to do this.

Yes, what?

Get sick.

If you take a look at who's gonna be at Sundance, producers, distributors,

financiers, and you reach out kinda last minute, say four days before the

festival kicks off and you send them a little note uhhuh, it says, Hey,

saw you're gonna be in Park City.

I'm gonna be in Park City too.

Should we meet for a coffee?

Almost 100% of those people will say no.

Because they're already too busy with their tight pack schedules, they'll

say, you know what, I'm pretty busy.

I'm sure I'll bump into you there, but let's set a zoom for the next week.

Ah, interesting.

So do you have a lot of zooms that work scheduled?

I'm,

yeah.

I'm, I'm gonna be zooming up the next, the next two weeks really, I, I use

Sundance as an opportunity to kind of reconnect with some financiers.

I met with an agent who reps a subject I'm looking at,

oh, sorry.

Excuse me.

And, uh.

But yeah, my dance card is, is, is getting locked in for the next couple weeks.

That's a fantastic use of Sundance.

And also, one might argue a great segue into what we're gonna talk about today.

What has that been?

I'm so glad you asked Keith.

It's, uh, inspired by Diane Quan.

We are gonna talk about the importance of reaching out to

other filmmakers, getting advice.

Advice often tastes better in the

mouth than it tastes in the ear.

A wise man once said, is that a, a thing?

I haven't heard that saying.

I think I wrote that in a script once a long time ago, but now I can't remember

if I got that out of like a book of quotes or I made that quote up myself.

What does that quote mean?

It sounds a little gross, tastes better in the mouth and it tastes in the air

that the advice giver, I think, sometimes enjoys advice more than the advice hearer.

I see.

Is that what that means?

I

see.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's a, that, that interpretation makes more sense.

Yes.

Um, back at Sundance.

We had a nice long form chat with Diane Kwan.

Mm-hmm.

And she told us that when she was getting started, the first thing

she did was send off an email to a filmmaker that inspired her.

And that was Morgan Neville with 20 feet from stardom.

Yep.

And she just said, Hey Morgan, you don't know me.

I am getting started as a documentary producer, kind of late in life,

and I could use some advice.

On how to get the ball rolling.

And miraculously, he wrote her back a very thoughtful email, and I say miraculous

because he's the guy who's winning Oscars.

He's juggling multiple projects, he's working with celebrities.

You would think that somebody at his level might not take the time to respond

to an email from an aspiring filmmaker looking for advice, and it's heartwarming

and encouraging to hear that he did respond and he responded thoughtfully.

Yeah, it was Morgan's response that that spurred Diane on.

And uh, and then she

went on to produce an Academy Award nominated documentary that, uh, helped

the director deal with his grief and moved a lot of the audience who saw it.

So, you know, his.

This, the what you hear about like a butterfly's wings, making ripples

that then affect lots of other things.

And that's to me a great example of the power of documentary.

The power of community, which we were gonna talk about today.

Well, listening to Diane talk about her outreach made me wonder, Ben,

about you and was there a time that you can recall reaching out for advice?

Absolutely.

And how'd it go?

Well, so when I was an undergraduate at the University of Kansas, um, I was

studying film after being a creative writer, a creative writing major,

and I had no idea how to get started.

I mean, me coming from Kansas, where I was born, in Oklahoma, where I was

raised, I knew no one who was a filmmaker.

And, you know, choosing to do that job was almost like saying I wanted

to be an astronaut or something.

Like, it just didn't feel possible.

Um, and so one of my professors at KU recommended that we reach out to people

that we admire and other filmmakers whose work we might wanna make something like.

And I wrote to, to three directors.

I wrote to Albert Maisels, I wrote to Ross Mcoe and I wrote to Les Blank.

And that right there shows you my sort of love of like, uh, sort of indie.

Uh, documentary.

Yeah.

And so they, all three wrote me back.

And for me in my early twenties, it was really inspiring and, uh, motivating.

And I got a camera and I went out and I made my first documentary.

And I remember Albert Maysles said that the thing that I should do is find,

uh, a subject that I had access to.

And to film that person with love in my heart, to basically like love my

subject and give them the opportunity to like show their best self.

And then Ross McElwee wrote me this very poetic postcard, which

essentially said he quoted Wordsworth and he said the edge of meaning never

lies far from personal experience.

Meaning make a film about something you have access to, something that

you know well, something that is going on with you in your life.

And, um, as big a fan as I am of Les Blank, and I would go

on to meet him years later.

I don't actually remember what he, okay, what he said back to me.

Uh, but I do know that he responded on like flower film's letterhead.

And I do have it in a notebook, but I can't recall what exactly he said.

But those three people did respond and it.

Uh, and I've always remembered that.

And so anytime somebody reaches out to me and asking for advice, I make

sure to take the time to respond.

I love what Albert Maisels has to say there, and the

idea of treating your subject with love, loving your subject, you know,

building empathy, finding common ground.

Um, yeah, in a sense, I think it's like baked into to the concept of wanting to

point a camera at somebody, but it's easy.

To, uh, to forget that sometimes.

Absolutely.

Especially when you're thinking about what's fundable?

How do I make money?

Uh, what will my, I dunno, agent be able to take around town and, uh, get companies

interested in, in, uh, financing.

It's, you know, it, it can very quickly tip over into more

of a financial consideration.

And it's important to keep, for me at least.

To remember what it is that motivated me to start making

documentaries in the first place.

And here we should stop and get a picture of where we are right now.

This is incredibly beautiful.

This is downtown Austin, and we are right here on the hike and bike trail

in front of the pontoon party boats that you can rent to take out for

your next bachelor bachelorette party.

Or maybe the next duck walks creative colloquium on the lake.

There we go.

There we go.

I was gonna say, um, uh, what, what do you call those at work?

Where you go out and you bond and you do trust falls and you, uh, people with jobs

know the answer to, to that question.

I've never had that.

We did have a Go Valley company picnic recently.

They're a company retreat.

That's what I'm looking for.

Alright, so Albert Maisel's advice.

Is, uh, easy to take to heart, exciting to implement.

Can be challenging when you're subject halfway through the process.

Maybe isn't giving you what you, uh, thought they were gonna give you or isn't

cooperating with your shoot schedule or,

yes.

Throwing

some curve

balls

Yes.

At the, at you.

But you know, the thing about documentary, which I, I know, you know, is that

you give up so much control when, if you're doing it right, in my opinion.

Because the story presents itself to you at a certain point.

Like you can try to wrestle it into the form you think it should take, but

ultimately you're a gardener and not a carpenter where you let the story sort

of blossom the character, kind of lead, uh, where the story's going instead of

trying to hammer them into a narrative.

And, uh, that's how I've always approached films and I love movies that take me.

For a ride as an audience member, and I always aspire to

do that in any movie I make.

You're a gardener, not a carpenter.

Not a

carpenter.

My work has a fair amount of carpentry in it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, there's, there's some structural decision making and some scaffolding

that's often built, uh, to create creative boundaries, but

I think you're absolutely right.

You're cultivating a garden, right?

You're planting seeds and then watching them grow.

You're watering some and weeding others.

Where

are we

at here, Ben?

We

are walking underneath what is known as the Bat bridge.

The Bat bridge, which is where all of the bats live and fly out.

Uh, at Sundown and tourists come to stand on top of this bridge to watch

all the bats fly into the sunset, um, to go and eat mosquitoes, hopefully.

And here we are.

We're walking the trail, right?

Underneath this iconic Congress three bridge here in Austin.

This is a perfect opportunity for me to announce a project that I am working on.

We've never talked about before.

No, I'm not in, uh, the role of, of the director on this one.

I am a, uh, I'm a creative consultant and my company is providing some

services and I think there's a chance I'll be doing some, uh, second

unit directing on some recreations.

But I am working with filmmaker Skip Hobby, to make the definitive

Austin Bats documentary.

No way.

Yeah.

How cool is that?

Yeah.

Skip Hobby is, uh, the world's greatest bat photographer.

He is a cinematographer who has been shooting, um, with, with dozens of

types of bats on multiple continents for National Geographic for years.

Wow.

Speaking

of having love in your heart for something that you film, this guy must clearly love.

Bats in order to go all over the world filming them.

Yeah, so Skip Hobby is, uh, has been camped out underneath that bridge,

filming the bats as they emerge from their, their sleep each night at dusk.

He shoots on a phantom, you know, at 500 frames a second.

Wow.

The footage is just outstanding.

Um, working with Hillary Pierce, who was a supervising producer on a

couple of my films a few years ago.

Has been working with Maisie Crow on her films and Ben Masters on his films.

And that's a project that began just a year ago at the stuck on, on

uh, wisteria party where somebody just skipped to me and he asked if

he could ask for, uh, some advice.

Wow.

And

so through giving advice to an aspiring filmmaker or in this

PO case, a pretty established cinematographer, it sounds like you.

Got to get involved with the project

yourself.

He wanted to get together and talk about story, talk about bringing the past into

the present as far as turning back the hands of time through archival footage.

Mm-hmm.

Potentially recreation, potentially animation, all the different kind of

tools at, at our disposal and what started out and could have just easily been,

you know, one coffee between colleagues.

Has turned into, uh, a collaboration and a, and a friendship and, um, and a project

I'm really excited about because the story of the Bats who live under the Congress

Avenue Bridge is a great story and it's one of the best stories of our town.

That's awesome.

Okay.

We have found ourselves just east of downtown on the south side of Lady Bird

Lake on the relatively new floating boardwalk section of the trail.

This feels.

Like the perfect place to do a little something.

Ben likes to call circle of confusion.

Are you ready, Ben?

I'm ready.

Here we go.

Circle of confusion and begin.

You gotta do it too.

Oh, I have to do it too.

I mean, it's only confusing if both windows are going at the same time.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Here we go.

Let's not get hit by a jogger.

Circle of confusion.

Whoa, I'm getting dizzy.

Four

function.

Storytelling all mixed up in a blender.

What are we doing?

Turning off the audience?

Undoubtedly,

making Ben very dizzy.

Oh, ooh.

Circle of confusion is gonna make me, make me barf over the railing.

That's

a different segment of the show.

Tell me a story about you reaching out to somebody when you were first starting.

How did that go?

When I was getting started, I knew I wanted to make a documentary,

and I was fortunate enough to meet this woman here in Austin.

I was living in New York, but I met her in Austin.

Her name is Lisa McWilliams and she ran the mobile film school.

I asked her if she had any advice for getting started,

and she suggested two things.

She said, look at ITVS.

Go to their website, the independent television service, and take

a look at their open call.

This is a major grant for independent filmmakers.

Documentary filmmakers who wanna get their work shown on PBS, they

have one of the most complicated application processes out there.

And it covers kind of all the bases of everything you need to know about your

project to get other people excited about.

So even if you don't apply, just familiarizing yourself with the

requirements of that process

forces you to think through.

It's a big step forward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your movie in a way that you probably aren't doing up to that point.

Exactly.

And then the second thing she suggested was.

Go to Hot Docs and sit in on the Toronto documentary forum, which is a pitch forum.

Yeah.

To see what a real pitch looks like.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's hard to wrap your head around sometimes.

But the way it worked is that, you know, kind of a selected group of filmmakers who

are already at least 20% funded on their film, which is a big hurdle to overcome.

Um, we're presenting their work in front of an audience.

To a panel of basically American Idol judges who were the commissioning editors

of international documentary, um, sales.

Right?

Which at the time was BBC Artes, A TF.

Mm-hmm.

PBS.

And so these are these two pillars of, of, of functional advice that Lisa gave

me was look at ITVS, the independent television service as kind of a.

Foundational grant application that would cover all the bases and ask

you all the questions and go to a pitch forum, especially a pitch forum

at a high level, and see how other filmmakers are presenting their work.

Um,

which is great advice.

So did you take it?

I took both of those.

Yeah.

I mean, I applied for ITVS and, uh, and I didn't get it and I, I reapplied

six months later and I didn't get it.

Yep.

And six months after that, I reapplied.

And I'm not sure if I got it, but six months after that

I think is when I got it.

I think it took four cycles and with each of those applications

came a feedback session.

And that's one of the things I also love about ITVS.

Ah, interesting.

So, so they said, we're not gonna give you the grant, but, and here's why.

Here's why,

here's why.

And here's what you could do to be more attractive next time.

Because we definitely want you to resubmit.

We're talking about,

uh, advice that we were given.

Let's talk about advice that we give.

So we are in about the midpoint of our careers and I think we, it's fair

to say we both have people reaching out to us who are young, aspiring

filmmakers looking for advice.

Yeah.

Knowing that we got such pivotal advice early on from people we

admired, how do you approach giving advice to young filmmakers?

Like what do you say when somebody comes up and asks you how to get started?

You want advice to be helpful and you want it to be constructive

and you want to move.

The conversation forward for the person you're talking to.

I love to meet with other filmmakers and I love to find out what people are

up to, what projects are going on, and I think usually my advice is spurred

off of asking questions around that.

You know, what are you trying to say?

Where are you trying to land?

Who are you trying to connect with?

So you're going for like practical, like how can I.

How can I be of most used to you sort of boots on the ground

like nuts and bolts every day.

I think that's what's missing.

You know, like there's a million books on productivity.

There's a million books on self-help.

Yeah.

There's a million fortune cookie.

You know, kind of bits of of direction you can give somebody that say, you know,

be smarter, be better, be more connected.

Right.

And those are all helpful from a big picture point of view.

But when you're just getting started, like what is a fiscal sponsor?

Right,

right,

right.

How do I apply for a grant when it says you have to be a nonprofit?

I'm not a nonprofit.

Do I have to start a nonprofit?

Yeah.

I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've had a conversation with somebody

making a first film who just can't figure out how to convert a donation that their

uncle is willing to make for 1500 bucks.

Yeah.

Into time spent on the film.

And so what is a fiscal sponsor?

That's a pretty good place to start.

That's with a brand new filmmaker.

Yeah.

That's great.

And, and see, I, I think.

We differ here because I go for much more of the like, rah rah, you can do it.

This is important work.

Keep it up.

Kind of like reason to do it, I think is what I, and it's funny, I

think like we probably give advice based on what we need, right?

Like you like your quote from earlier, like advice tastes better

in the mouth and sounds in the ear.

I'm probably saying to the people.

Who asked me a version of what I need to hear in that moment in a way.

Yeah.

And you know, they maybe so.

Yeah, maybe so.

I mean, I appreciate it.

And if you need that, rah rah, I know that I'm here for you because you can do it.

Oh, thank you, Kesy.

And I should, I should just be getting my affirmations from you.

I mean, I could text you every morning if you'd like.

Um, I, there's no, there's nothing wrong with that.

And that's great to get and it, you, we all need that boost.

Yeah.

Um, and I, I think I'm agreeing with you like oftentimes what I need.

You know, even today and every day, no matter what point of my career

I'm in, is like a clear next move.

Mm-hmm.

That will actually move the rock up the hill.

Yeah.

You know, a foot or two.

Right.

And oftentimes I know what that next move is, but I don't

feel like it is the next move.

And so getting somebody else to say, make that phone call, reach out

to that funder, set that meeting.

Yep.

You know, ask for advice.

I'll, I'll tell you like one piece of advice I got a long time ago,

and I don't remember who gave it to me, but I've repeated it a lot, is

if you want,

if you want advice, ask for money.

Yep.

And if you want money, ask for advice.

For advice.

Yep.

Uh, I've heard that a lot too.

That personally hasn't served me 'cause I don't fully understand

how, like, how to apply it.

So how, how do you think about that?

Well, I think

it's only half true.

I think if you want advice, ask for money.

It's totally true.

If you ask someone for money, they're gonna tell you what you need to do to make

your project better, different stand out.

So

in other

words, like if you get money from somebody, they're going to have notes

and want to be creatively involved.

I think

oftentimes they're gonna give you advice and not money.

Um, and that's, I think that's the point of the line is like, if

you want advice, ask for money.

'cause that's what you're gonna get.

You're gonna get advice.

Gotcha.

If you want money, ask for advice.

I think it's about cultivating.

Relationships, right?

Mm-hmm.

And it's about letting somebody know, I'm not coming at you just

to get into your pocketbook.

I'm coming at you because I appreciate and trust your point of view,

right?

So I'm looking at you as a collaborator and not just as a financier that I can,

right?

And I think especially when you're getting started, okay, here's a piece

of advice I think it serves that it's something that, that ITVS, um,

required, uh, of me on my first film.

Uh.

Which is put together, um, a board of advisors and what the idea there was,

you don't need five filmmakers who are gonna tell you how to make movies, but

one filmmaker that you could call and say, I'm in a bind, I'm painted into a corner.

I'm not sure what to do.

That would be helpful.

One subject expert who really knew the, the world that you were planning

on, kind of injecting yourself into.

That could help you navigate that community.

Just sometimes it's just about buckling down and filling out the application.

Right.

You know?

Why are you the person to make this film?

Why is now the time to make this film?

Who is the audience for this film?

Well, and it's not just ITVS, that's every pitch I've ever done.

An executive will ask, why now?

Why does this film need to be made?

And like you said, why are you the person to do it?

And that no matter where you are in your career, you have to answer those

questions and it's best to think about them as early as possible.

And I, one thing I wanted to say about you meeting with, um, prospective filmmakers

or people who are looking for advice, I should say aspiring filmmakers, not

perspective, but I'm, I'm reading this book right now by George Raveling and,

uh, it's called What You're Made for and he is, uh, a college basketball coach.

Who had a storied career.

He meant a lot to a lot of, um, professional athletes like Michael

Jordan writes the Forward and one of his core principles is the idea

of what he calls planting flowers.

Hmm.

And he worked in basketball.

And that world gets smaller as you continue in your career.

And I feel like documentary film is the same way where you know,

fewer and fewer people do it.

The longer you, you do it.

And so it's important to treat your community well, and what he may

means by that is that you are doing, going out of your way to be kind to

everybody that you interact with, because planting those flowers, those

like seeds of hope and beauty, do nothing but improve your quality of

life, the very least you get to notice.

Beautiful.

The, the results of your seeds that you've planted, or at the very best,

like your story, you get to get involved with some of these people.

They go on to be collaborators or lifelong friends.

And so it's really, he, he's making the point that it's really important to

take the time to extend that courtesy to people, um, not just to help them,

but that it comes back around and ends up making your life much richer

and fuller and better as a result.

He is a gardener and a carpenter.

Hey, look at that.

Go to bring it back around.

I, I, I, second and third, everything that George Ling mm-hmm.

Has to say in that.

And like I said, I just wanna admit, like I don't always get it right.

Yeah.

Sometimes I've spoken a little too bluntly.

Yeah.

Sometimes I've insinuated too much of my own point of view or

my own directing point of view.

Certainly my creative point of view.

Right.

Onto somebody else's idea.

Right.

And I don't do that with the intention of usurping their,

you know, their expression.

I do that kind of at a fervor for the idea.

Oftentimes.

Oftentimes I see like, like

you get excited and you're like, you should do

this.

Yeah.

Like, you tell

them the way that you would do it.

Yeah.

I'm hungry for, for narrative, uh, at all times.

You know, like, I love a good story.

Right.

And, uh.

And so, um, I do try and temper that.

Like I have to remember that though.

So that's advice I give myself before I go into, um, I just got a, a text the other

day from a ut I think he's a freshman.

He is the son of a high school friend's neighbor, so Wow.

Not much of a connection, you know, between us, right?

Um, but they asked, is it okay if I share your contact info?

He wants to know, you know, how can he be a writer, director?

In this world.

And if, you know, going to UT for four years studying RTF is a good idea.

Yeah.

And and what'd you say?

Well, I, I said I'd meet with the kid.

I haven't met him yet.

Um, so I got the text from him, um, just the other day.

We're gonna have coffee in a couple days.

But see, even the fact that you're willing to do that is very generous.

I'm happy to do it.

Yeah, I'm happy to do it because, you know what I, what'll happen is I'll sit

across the table from him and undoubtedly I will get excited about the ideas.

That make him excited.

Yeah.

And I will see something of myself.

That's what I was gonna say, that and you'll sort of like

draft off his enthusiasm.

For sure.

And I remember teaching that.

That was like when I, when I taught undergrad film students for a while,

that's what I got out of it too, is their enthusiasm is infectious

and then you get excited and you remind you of like why you wanted to.

Or at least why I wanted to make films in the first place.

Well, I think you made a really good point a moment ago.

Like the advice that we give is often the advice we need to hear.

Yeah.

And so every time I have a chance to meet an emerging filmmaker, an up and

comer or just a colleague, you know, on equal, uh, footing as as myself, and

just talk about the work, talk about the world, I come out of it renewed.

Yeah.

I remember when I was first starting out and I was an undergrad

at the University of Kansas.

This happened multiple times where we would have a guest speaker come into

one of our classes, and oftentimes they were a director whose films we just

watch or the professor was friends with.

And this person would come in and they would say, I'm a working professional, and

how many of you here want to be directors?

And everybody would raise their hand, I know right where this is going.

Right.

We've all had this happen, and this happened multiple

times as an undergraduate.

And then it look around

the room.

Yeah.

And then they would say something like, only three of you will end up being

directors out of, you know, 50, 60, sometimes a hundred kids in the class.

And I remember how deflating that felt and feeling like, why?

What's the point in doing that?

Like I know that probably to them they felt like they were giving us like

tough love and encouraging us along these sort of practical lines where.

Instead of being a director.

If you learn to be a sound mixer, then you know you will work more

often or have a more secure career.

But what that served to do was like irritate me and motivate me forward.

'cause it kind of angered me.

And so I always remembered that feeling.

And when I taught, I would do the exact opposite I would say.

Everybody in this class for this semester is a director and I'm gonna treat you

that way and I'm gonna take you seriously.

And we are gonna make films together and this is your opportunity to be

a director and to not just dream about it, but to actually do it.

And I feel like when I give advice, I love, it's kind of in that same spirit.

I wanna be in that class like I do.

There is so much to be said for building somebody up.

Right, and for taking away the obstacles, especially in an, in an academic

kind of educational environment and saying, this is the moment, this is

the moment where all that matters is that you express yourself and that

you, you try new things, you get knocked down, and then you get up again

because we know this is hard to do.

It's like there's a lot of competition.

You, this is full of heartbreak, where you feel like, oh, I'm so

close and this is about to get made, and then it doesn't get made.

Or you have to, you know, put it on the shelf for a year or

somebody beats you to the idea.

There's so many ways that, you know, this is, this type of work is hard, and so I

think it's way more valuable to encourage people to do it and to keep going.

And to fight the fight than it is to point out how hard it is.

That's right.

Well, let's get practical here at the end.

Okay.

Let's do it.

Some approaches you can take to seeking advice if you are new to filmmaking

or new to a community of filmmakers.

Yep.

Trying to break

in.

So if you want to make films, you have undoubtedly been inspired

by films that already exist.

Do research about that director nowadays, it's very easy to find people's

contact information or ways to get.

In touch with them and write a thoughtful email.

Yeah.

Don't toss something off.

Write something that is intentional that, uh, you take time doing

that is considerate of their time.

'cause we're all busy people.

If you do that nine times outta 10, the person will respond.

Mm-hmm.

What about you?

What, what advice would you give to somebody starting

out and looking for advice?

I think that's great advice.

Um, I think, you know, take a more in-person approach.

Could work.

If you are new to filmmaking, one of the best things you could do is go

to a big festival and buy a badge.

Yeah.

Ask your folks for that for Christmas if you need to.

Yeah.

Or squirrel away the 200 to $600 it can cost at one of the bigger fests.

But if you have a badge, many festivals offer, you know, one-on-one advice

sessions south by, certainly does.

Austin Film Festival also does, um, I know up in Hot Springs, they have

a new festival with a pitch for 'em.

Um, that, that people can attend.

New Orleans Film Festival has a pitch forum.

There are pitch forums around the country, um, called

Good Pitch.

So your advice, I, I like that, is to go in person and go get inspired

by films and also try to meet the directors that you like there.

I think

going to screenings where the directors are giving q and As, yeah, and sitting

in the room with a director answering questions going in person, I think can

make all the difference and sitting across the table from somebody you

know, at South by the, at these.

Round tables.

I'm sure you've done the mentorship round table.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

I've done it probably five or six times as a mentor.

And each time it's like speed dating.

You get 20 minutes with the people across the table from

you, you get six of them maybe.

Yep.

And every time I've done it, at least one of those people has become someone

that I've stayed in touch with.

And I've noticed that about you.

When we run into people, like at Sundance, for example.

You have helped lots of other filmmakers and they remember you and they,

and, and they thank you for that.

And that's something that I really admire about the way that you work.

Well, I appreciate you saying that.

I, I just look at it as community building and, and, and when people reach out, you

know, because they, they don't reach out 'cause they think I'm a, I'm a nice guy.

Uh, or, or, or smart or anything.

They reach out because they like the work that it made.

Mm-hmm.

And they want to figure out how to get their work seen.

Yeah.

And that's, I mean.

It starts off as a great bit of flattery, but it ends up as an opportunity, like

what we've talking about, like what we're talking about to, um, to advance

my own understanding of my own career.

Yeah.

So selfishly, when I talk to, to those, to those folks, I'm, I'm helping them

maybe, but I know I'm helping myself too.

You're

planting flowers as George Ling would, would say.

And I think, uh, that's a great natural segue to end indoor episode

and look, look where we are.

We're right back where we started here on the, uh, Lamar Street footbridge.

With a beautiful view of downtown Austin.

I'd like

to, you know, point some attention right there where it says, never give up.

Wow.

And over there where it says toe flop,

I'm, I, I'm not sure what one has to do with the other, but

I like the sentiment of both.

And I love living here in Austin.

I love recording this podcast with you.

Thank you, Keith Maylands.

Thank you Ben Steinhower.

Let's cut.

And cutting.

For Go Valley, I'm Keith

Maitland.

And for the Bear, I'm Ben Steinbauer, and we've got a musician here on the street.

All right.

Next time on Dock Walks,

we are going to explore the film festival in our hometown, south by Southwest.

We've got some, uh, long form interviews booked with some South by filmmakers, and

I think the first one up in the hopper.

Is your friend and someone I'm looking forward to getting to know

and hearing about his process.

And that is Adam Bala Low.

That's right.

He, uh, is probably most well known for his latest doc series Telemarketers,

which is on HBO, and he's coming to South by with a new feature documentary

called Deep Faking Sam Altman.

So thanks for tuning in.

Thanks for sticking with us.

I hope you'll stick around for the next episode.

South by Southwest.

We'll have several episodes from South by and as always, uh, you're Keith.

I'm Ben.

You're Ben.

Thanks for tuning in everybody.

Bye y'all.

Bye-bye.

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