EP039: The Manhole Covers Of Park City W/ Sam Green

02.05.2026 - Season: 1 Episode 39

We are excited to catch Sam Green—despite freezing our asses off on Main Street—hours after the world premiere of THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE WORLD. What starts as a conversation about chasing Guinness World Records quickly becomes something bigger: how curiosity transforms into meaning.

Sam walks us through ten years of filming, cancer scares, fatherhood, and the realization that 116-year-olds don’t give a fuck about pearls of wisdom—like Keith, they just want snacks and naps. Sam is an inspiration, driven by endless curiosity and the urge to overcome his own inner shy-kid, he shares the impetus to innovate docmaking with ‘live cinema’ and we witness his obsession with manhole covers (yes, really). Sam pulls back the curtains on his years-long cutting process with OLDEST PERSON editor Aaron Wickenden—they cut for 1-month a year for ten years! This walk is full of positivity, creativity, and a lot of laughs.

Plus: a stop & chat with Oscar-winning producer, Dan Cogan, why SALESMAN changed everything, and insight into Sam’s new alter ego as a Venice futbol fanatic: Samuel Verde.

It’s the end of an era at Sundance, but Sam reminds us why we fell in love with this art form in the first place.

Timestamps: 00:00 Main Street at Sundance—14 Degrees 01:05 Meeting Sam During Covid Austin 02:42 The Oldest Person in the World—The Film That Changed 04:13 When Centenarians Just Want Snacks 07:41 The Manhole Cover Obsession 11:17 From Rainbow Man to Sundance 1997 15:28 The Weather Underground & Paul Thomas Anderson 19:56 Editing Over Ten Years with Aaron 25:32 The Live Documentary Revolution 29:13 Performing Arts Saved My Career 34:24 Advice: Keep It Small, Keep It Fun 41:39 Barbara Kopple on Watching Your Own Films 45:01 Gateway Drug: Salesman & Sans Soleil 48:25 Samuel the Venice Soccer Fan 49:26 The End of an Era at Sundance

We are deep in the heart of Texas

and deeply tired 'cause we're taking an early morning flight.

Look at us walking through the airport, we're walking through the

jetway, we're getting on the plane

and we're taking pictures.

And

let's get a window seat to shoot out the window.

And like I am taking a nap,

we're taking an early morning flight to two.

Sundance.

It's the Sunday's Film Festival.

That's right.

The last year before it moves to Boulder and we started the podcast

here last year and we are back baby.

Back in the snow, walking the streets of Park City, talking to

filmmakers, talking to producers, setting the tone for the year.

And we are going to bring you multiple episodes from the S Swim Festival.

All thanks to our sponsors,

the Austin Film Society, and our friends at the longtime Texas.

Alright, so stick around for dock Walks in the snow.

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Do, do, do, do.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walks with Ben and Keith.

All right.

Do I look?

Don't even worry about you.

Don't even worry about it.

Yeah, you, we are having a conversation.

There is nothing you can do wrong.

I like that.

We're gonna put, I'm gonna put that on a bumper sticker.

Yeah.

There.

There is nothing you can do wrong right here.

We were having a conversation.

There was nothing you could do wrong.

There is nothing you could do wrong except slip on the ice.

Right.

But if you do, we'll have it.

Well wait, let's comment on where we are here.

We're at the base of Main Street.

Yeah.

Here at Sundance.

And, uh, this is like the spot, like everybody stops here to take a photo.

Yeah.

Better grab, grab.

Well, why don't we do this?

I know we just did a selfie with the, with the phone, but let's

do it with our cameras here.

This is a good way to start.

We'll do a selfie.

I'm

gonna boom really

with, with our friend Sam.

This is great.

This is Sam Green.

Everybody on Dock Walks

welcome

at the foot of Main

Street in Park C at the Sun in Filmfest 2026 last year in Park City.

And you are here with work.

I'm right feeling called the oldest person.

Now, Sam, would you consider

Yeah.

Giving us a kind of a classic Sam Green voiceover intro.

Ooh, what's the thing to new that gets

us?

Alright.

It was a cold wintery

day.

Nah, it really was.

It was.

And it is.

It is.

According to my phone, it feels like 14 degrees.

It was three guys about to take a walk.

Nobody knew what was gonna happen.

Let's see, let's see, let's find out.

Let's see what it was.

There we go.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Uh, so I don't know if you would remember, but I met you in your brief

stint in Austin during the COVID.

I remember Ron Mann brought me over.

Yeah,

I totally remember that.

We sat around your fire and I got, I met Ka, I met Atlas.

Yeah.

And then, so, so great.

When I saw the film, 'cause like Atlas is in one of the very earliest

shots and I was like, that's Atlas.

Yeah.

And then Atlas emerges as, you know, catalyst.

This is so much of the storytelling.

Yeah.

I felt a little left out because I don't wanna give too much of you a film away

and we're gonna have to jump it right in.

But because the film has tells a linear story over 10 years in

some ways, I was really hoping that your brief stay in Austin

wouldn't make it.

So you

were wanting make, make cut.

We were beautiful person film, trying to make it about you.

Angry.

Angry because he

wasn't in it.

Angry.

Angry, frankly was Sarah.

Well, yeah, it's so, there's so much one Canton p. But our stay in

Austin during COVID was wonderful.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

And we have met in Austin through our mutual friend Bradley Beasley.

Yeah.

And it seems like you come to Austin a fair amount.

that right?

Yeah, I love Austin.

We ended up in Austin during C, but for various reasons we had nowhere to go.

And we said, where, where should we go?

And I said, I remember swimming in Barton Springs once and I had the greatest time.

Let's go to Austin.

Yes.

And so you were in New York?

Yeah.

Fairly oppressive.

Yeah,

I imagine.

To be in New York at that time.

Then

we had rented our house out right before COVID, and so

didn't have anywhere to Oh live.

That was fit to us.

Yeah.

anyway,

you were on, if I remember, I, it was voluntary that what it is.

Yeah.

Well, Austin is the Venice of Central Texas in many ways.

Lucky everybody says

pretty much.

It's also on a bumper sticker.

That bumper sticker are covered with the other bumper sticker.

Well, so Sam, you're here with your film?

Yeah.

The oldest person in the world.

Yeah.

And normally we would describe, we would save you.

Okay.

Having to describe your felony.

Yeah.

But it is so personal.

Uhhuh.

And you narrate the whole thing.

Yeah.

I have to admit, I'm a little intimidated.

Oh.

To try to encapsulate your sense.

You're gonna

make me do it.

Well, no.

So should I should do,

should I try?

Yeah, do it, please.

And then you can jump in at any point.

Okay.

I think you'll do a fine job.

Okay.

So the oldest person in the world starts with the idea that you are

taken with the Guinness Book of World Records, and particularly

the oldest person in the world.

Yeah.

And you set out to start filming with Ron.

And it quickly becomes a meditation on your life, on having a child,

having the grub

on having the cancer scare.

Yeah.

Diagnosis.

Yeah.

Uh, and then becomes this sort of beautiful medication about what it

means to even celebrate that angle.

Gonna be a lot.

How'd I do?

Pretty good.

That's pretty good.

Yeah.

Sorts of, I'm, I'm very winded.

I know.

It's, this is, it's the altitude.

We're all like, there's also a part about.

My mom who's old and my younger brother who died.

And so it's, it's, you know, it's personal.

Yes, it's personal and deeply layered.

Ah,

did you know going in, no.

That it was going to be a personal,

not at all.

And that's one thing I love about documentaries.

You're set off to make something.

You have your idea about the world and the world.

Has other ideas

because you

Yeah.

What the

story should

be.

What did you, and the world is always more interesting than

anything I could think of.

Yeah.

Personally, that's why I love documentaries.

So I thought I would film every person with the oldest person in the world.

Mm-hmm.

And they would spout these pearls of wisdom.

I actually imagined them to be like Harold Ma.

Yeah.

Oh.

Saucy old people who were wise.

But what I didn't realize is.

By the time you're 116, you're fucking tired, right?

You don't care about big ideas about life and death.

You want a sack and a nap, right?

So I 160.

So anyway, it, it sort of changed.

I also realize, like I'm interested in, I'm not interested in like

the Blue Zones element to this.

I'm interested in what these people.

Mean to us in terms of time and fate and mortality and stuff like that.

yeah,

those themes just started happening in the film.

Well, one of the things that I love about your work that seems like

there's a through line, whether it's this or your live documentaries,

is that the sort of natural curiosity that you have to explore.

Very like fun, seemingly random ideas, and then they become very.

Full of meaning in your exploration of them?

You know, like, I'm trying to think of a good example.

Like the way in 32 times you save the, uh, the tapes from your answering machine.

Oh yeah.

For example, where like that's again, a thing.

Or like your new film you're making about trees.

Yeah.

Something that seems like it would be hard to make a film about and

maybe there isn't enough material there even, but that you are somehow

able to find this sort of deeper.

Profound meaning in

Thanks for saying that.

I mean, do you think of it that same way?

Well, I mean, I don't,

I guess, I

guess I'm interested in stuff and if at film you can communicate that and

make people interested in it too or see what's interesting, then you succeeded.

Yeah,

I gotta do one thing.

I'm very into manhole cover.

Oh, oh.

And every city I go to, I take photos of the manhole covers.

So this is a pretty good one.

See, this is a great example of what I'm talking about.

Like what is it about manhole fabric that manhole Sundance

2032, man Animal Cover Movie

Man.

Animal covers are awesome because they're different in every city,

okay?

And some cities are really boring.

And some are very creative, and every city you go to, you can look out for them.

They're all different.

Every, there's no standard and it's completely, I, I

became interested in that.

There's no value in it.

Okay.

I'm not doing a project.

There's no career boost.

It's all fun, but I'm really fun.

The more I have always felt like if you pay attention to

something, it becomes meaningful.

Yeah.

Yes.

What was the line from Joy Bubbles that we were quoting

was that the more, if you love something hard enough, it loves you back.

Yes.

I like that.

Wow.

See, so, so I'm wondering if actually what you're describing is going to

turn into a film project for you,

the Manel covers.

Yeah.

Because have you had other film projects

that come out?

Yes, it's true.

It's true.

But you know, it's fun that I like part of it for me that.

Delights me is that there's no value to it,

right?

It's pure pleasure and curiosity,

but that, but there's no value

to it until up there, until I

sell

it to Netflix.

Uh, the,

we get into these narrow pad layers,

the way

that you tell the story, and then there's a hard cut and suddenly we're in a factory

where a bicycle would goes by, or a great piece of iPhone footage that has

been haunting your phone for 10 years.

Kind of changes like turns the page.

Hold

down

you

guys.

This one.

yeah, that is a good one.

It's a little clearer in hole number two.

So wait, describe this is a great opportunity.

So describe what it is that you're seeing here when you look at

this.

Well, this one is awesome 'cause it says Olympic City, park City, and I

think the Olympics here were in like.

Bo bait or something like that.

So it's been there a long time and uh, you know, this is like unique to Park City,

right?

And they made these at some point, they cast these in some foundry somewhere.

And it's cool because a lot of cities just have nothing like the New York

one says New York City made in India.

No,

it's like.

Why would they put that on the cover?

This

the shipping

cost.

I know.

It's like this great little canvas.

You can, you can put like, you are a wonderful person or Right.

There's so many things you could put

that made in India.

Seems like a, I

know.

Just they probably like, they got 'em cheaper if they said that or something.

But there's some places, Spain, when I was in Barcelona, they have these

beautiful versions of those like art deco.

They're just gorgeous and they make you feel good.

Right.

So,

you know, it's way that you described this Canice.

When I was in Coat Scouts, Uhhuh, we would go out and roll India ink

on a roller, on on, we did manhole covers and Water Inc. Covers.

Yeah.

Which eventually we did.

Old, uh, grave.

Yeah.

Grave rubber.

We didn't do that with the uh, with the ink.

We did that, the crayon on paper.

But the, the ink was, we did on t we made t-shirts.

Oh.

Robo income.

And that's great.

Presti.

So you guys Main Street is very.

I knew I'd have this, but I'd come to Sundance for a long time.

Uhhuh, I first came in 1997 and in 1997 people put up flyers.

Oh.

And I came with my first film.

I didn't know anything about film vessels, didn't know anybody.

I came here and I'd gone to Kinko's and I made a bunch of flyers for my movie

Uhhuh,

and I walked up and down Main Street

handing out

flyers

in the

boat up on the lampposts.

Oh wow.

Yeah.

And did it work?

Did people come.

Yes.

A few years later he's still coming.

I think it works.

No, but I discovered also that if you put them on the inside of a bathroom stall,

yes.

People are sitting there taking a shit.

You've

gotta captive all Cap

all.

Yeah.

I packed the house with those.

So, wait a minute.

So that was 97 you said?

Yeah.

And so what film would that have been?

That

was, it was called The Rainbow Man, John 360.

Yes.

You know, I know

my name

became a fan of yours and ordered that on VHS and in a plastic tub

in my storage unit that I have.

Oh, there's still, I have a VHS tape of John.

The Rainbow Man, John three 16 and I love that.

And that was a short, correct?

It was 40 minutes long, which

is like, oh, that's an unusual wave.

Somebody later told me that's a Schlong, a short, long,

a schlong.

And then, so wait, so after Rainbow Man, yeah.

Wind.

Is the weather underground your next film?

Yeah, that was 2003.

2003, okay.

Yeah,

I saw that film forum.

Ah,

on a classic.

So I live in the Lower East side through 98 to 2005.

And probably twice a month a Saturday tradition was not to get

the paper and kind of see what was playing, but it was Oh wow.

Just, just to get up and wander over their film forum.

Yeah.

And if there was nothing there, there always was.

Yeah.

You know, there's four other places, you know, within 10 blocks, but my

memory is that was one of those weather underground, I kind of stumbled over

to No, no warning, no, no critique.

Just the marquee.

And I love that film.

I love that time period.

Yeah.

And I love the world that you introduced us to through that.

Uh.

That film is like, reflections of that film are on screens right

now with one battle or another.

Yeah,

right.

Did you, do you feel like they, they were picking in pocket a little bit?

No, I had a very funny experience with that.

At some point, Josh Penn had put me in touch with, called

Thomas Anderson's office.

So I remember emailing back and forth with them, but I didn't remember anything else.

It had been years before.

So we went to see one medal after another.

And you know that scene with the letter from the mother?

Yes.

Um, so.

There's a, a new pin.

It starts off hello from the other side of the shadows.

And I was like,

oh,

that's weirdly familiar.

And then the next line was like, I don't mean to scare you after so many years.

And I just started saying the lines, you know, I was like,

no.

And it was four lines in a row from that letter.

Wow.

And I was like, God damnit, I can't believe I must have

sent them a. Copy because they are fucking using this letter.

Wow,

that's so lame that they stole it and I'm, I was like, how could I

shake them down for some money?

I'm really mad Uhhuh.

And so I went home and I looked through the correspondence and I

had completely forgotten they were.

Can we use this letter?

I was like, I'll put you in touch with a person's daughter

who wrote it completely cool.

You know?

So I was like, no ground to stand on.

So you went from being really pissed to being kind of flattered,

right?

Yeah.

That was a guy I did think I should have, I should have got

some money from that somehow.

But anyway, I, I, that movie was cool and yeah, it is.

Although it's funny because,

well, I have, I have a question for you about that movie because I. I loved it.

Yeah,

except for the ending.

And your documentary has the ending to it, which I wanted to see from that movie.

Ah,

which is that.

They learn a lesson, which is that violent protest is not necessarily a smart move.

And if we became a lawyer and tried to make change from the inside, for example.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That could maybe have a, you know, as more profound effect.

That's true.

And I. So loved everything about the movie except for that last moment, which left me

sort of feeling like, well, wait a minute.

We just watched all these horrible decisions happen and the

consequences from them, and then she's just gonna go do it again.

Yeah.

Like, Hmm.

It's funny, I didn't, I didn't really take it seriously in terms

of like the politics and the ideas.

Yeah.

So in that sense it was just fun.

I think you took the spirit they intended.

Yeah.

I'll say, Ben, one of the differences between you and I

is not only do I not remember.

The end.

Do you don't remember the end?

Don't remember.

I don't remember that.

Remember the Sam Suite, which I haven't seen in 22 years.

Oh.

But I don't remember the End to One Battle another, which I saw two months ago.

Oh yeah.

That is what I remember from both.

And what I always take away from films is the feeling kind of in my chest.

Yes.

Like the sense of of of space that I've inhabiting because the world that

the film maker has brought me into, and that's what I was getting at a

little bit ago when I was talking about like before some may bolt cover on.

Yeah, the, the editorial shifts that you implore to kind of open a

new chapter in your storytelling.

And it, and it really comes across, I think, in this film, the oldest person

in the world, that just when I feel like you've set an expectation, you pull the

rug out of that expectation and you go sometimes 180 degrees, sometimes nine

degrees, sometimes 360 degrees, and I just wanted to talk to you about, yeah.

For a film for filmmaking that can, that is as subjective.

All films are subjective.

Yeah.

But your films are particularly subjective and personal.

Yeah.

What is the relationship between you and your editor as you kind of create these,

these sub chapters and these turns?

Yeah,

that's a hard one.

I mean, I edit, you know, sort of a lot of the film.

Yeah.

And this I did with Eric Wicked Men.

And it's hard 'cause you can't, with at least the movies I make,

you can't be like, okay, go make.

Go make the film to an editor.

Right.

A lot of it's like writing and so we would, sometimes I would write something

and Aaron would make it better, you know, or like some of the very, he's really.

The verite is all him.

'cause like he's a much better editor in that sense than me.

So,

so you mean like the verite sons where you're, or scenes where

you're with your son for example?

Yeah, or like the one with Maria Branas at the end.

You know, where the Spanish lady, that's like a lot of, I don't talk in

that entire scene, so it's all him, you know, that was all him cutting.

So it's like a balance.

But it is hard because the.

A lot of what drives the film is writing for sure.

Yeah.

So I, I just like make a lot of sketches and we use some of them and don't here.

with a film like this, that traverses 10 years of storytelling, as you're

doing those shoots and as you're picking off ideas along the way.

Yeah.

Are you editing chunks?

Well, we did a funny thing, me and Aaron, where for several years in a row, we

would edit for month every February.

Okay.

Because he would've a movie at Sundance.

In February, he'd be free.

He'd come.

Yeah.

So we would, we had a standing name.

We did it for three years in a row.

Wow.

Four month.

Okay.

And that was pretty good.

But then the last year we've, you know, worked for full time.

And how much of those yearly days?

Plus, it's a good question.

Not out a ton, not a, but we had a good time.

I'm curious in you describing your editing process,

I just, just say, this is a lovely walk.

I'm really intro.

This is the street is nice.

Yeah, we got people.

It's not too busy.

Nobody's pumping into us, or

I agree.

I thought it would be it.

Yeah.

Let's, let's, let's build on that for a second, because a key portion

of our audience is only listening.

It's a podcast.

We're shooting for cameras.

People are, um, audible or Spotify or wherever.

What do you describe the scene?

Well, it's a, a long street that usually has traffic put in five golf park.

So it's kind of like, and there are a lot of people walking.

It's not in the middle of the road.

It's not the kind of situation like Fort Lauderdale on a Friday night where

you're shoulder to shoulder with people.

The closest people are 15 feet away, and, but it, there's a kind of festive

feeling in the air because people like walking in the street of a, you

know, there's a kind of giddiness the.

And it's nice people are out and you know, but just kind of

a lovely stroll right there.

Do you feel an all black, like banning on a hiding eye?

Some people are this crowd, and I was saying Sam is wearing color, but I had

a prototype pinpointing a description of is a, it has a fluorescence.

He has two garments that are well together.

Uh, how would you describe this color?

I'm wearing a, I think an orange shirt and an orange sweater.

And white pants.

There you go.

It orange

but isn't like you guys.

Yeah.

It looks like you could go hunting and be completely safe.

Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah.

You could get a job directing traffic if you needed to.

And you uh, point out you are wearing a clown suit, which is pretty awesome.

That's a strong choice.

You know, I'm a generator to be be an independent filming.

Well, Sam, going back to process, 'cause you were talking about

how you work with your editor.

Yeah.

I have to admit something else.

I'm very, every time I watch one of your films or your live documentaries,

which I want to talk to you more about in a minute, I have this feeling

like, oh my God, I want to make that movie, and I don't necessarily know

how to start making something like that because it is such a personal.

Exploration That feels like, I don't even know how you would get started.

So how do you start a project is the question?

Well, like I'm, I'm making a movie about trees now.

Yeah.

And I just started editing and I just took some of the footage for one shoot I did.

And I kind of wrote out a story that I liked from it and recorded it, and

then I put it with some images and.

And then I did some music and another part, and it's just a sketch and it odd

art, it'll never end up in the movie.

But you know, for me, I get like 25 sketches and start to put 'em together

and to see what, okay, what's there?

I the sequencing like.

Like a musician?

Yeah.

Records.

Yeah.

An album.

Yeah, A lot.

I mean, with the oldest person in the world, that was the hugest challenge.

How to.

Because a lot of those pieces are in, in a lot order, but a lot are not.

Right.

So figuring out how to, the order was super challenging, so.

But in something like the case of the Trees film,

I have a habit of making movies that sound like they aren't gonna be that

serious or taken very seriously.

You know, like, uh, about a comedy duo that's pranking

morning news shows, for example.

Or a classic underground tape of outtakes, right?

Yeah, exactly.

And I have written lots of grants in my wild,

yeah.

Yeah.

And those ideas do not get grants?

No.

In my experience.

Yeah.

So when you started projects and it's about something like trees, for example.

Yeah.

How are you?

How, and you know, I, I'm asking this 'cause I see at the end in your credits.

Yeah.

Do you have like eight foundations that are giving you supported here

said yes to the oldest person in the world and thank goodness they did.

But I'm just curious, like, how do you.

How do you approach that if you, if the idea is still kind of a sketch?

Yeah.

And you're still sort of finding it as you go.

That's hard.

It's just like a built in challenge.

Especially if you don't know like trees.

I don't know how I'm gonna do it still.

Yeah.

I'm doing it and I don't know how I'm gonna do it.

That doesn't inspire sort of cook.

No.

But you had a track record at this point.

No movies.

I know.

I can nail something about trees.

Right.

So.

Okay.

And so, but you're obviously like projecting in the applications like

what you think the importance will be.

It's an impossible at this point of like,

yeah,

I never hid in grants anymore.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Well how was the oldest person in the world put together

a lot of markets, like, so a lot of equity money.

Alright, we are hopping off Main Street.

So now we're uh, we're walking.

Into the more serene, yeah.

Quieter kinda side streets that make Park City

to follow up on that question.

Yeah.

One thing that we talk about a lot, Sam, is that we hope this podcast is

for people who were like us in our twenties, who are like maybe just starting

out and like falling in love with the art form and wondering how to do it.

And we also.

That goes hand in hand with sort of talking about the state of the industry

and there's a lot of doom and gloom.

Yeah.

And talk of new formats and new ways to do things.

And I feel like you are such an interesting person to talk to about

that because you pioneered sort of a way to make docs that feels

like it's fresh and new and able to

wanna walk in the street up the hill.

Or should we just go down?

You know, I think down is gonna be trickier.

That was gonna

tricky.

Whereas if we go up, there's not as many people, but we will pant.

We will pant.

We're tough.

Let's pant.

Yeah.

Anyways, I'm making this question too long.

My question is,

what is the question babe?

You, what do you think, think of this state of

watch, your step state

of, of doc filmmaking and how are you wrestling with that?

Yeah.

And with an eye to younger people.

Yeah.

Emerging factors.

I don't want to be discouraging, but I'm,

I emphasize and feel for anybody trying to get into making documentary films now.

Yeah.

It's hard.

The world is much less hospitable.

Yes.

And it's a bummer.

So, but I do think documentary had this sort of like spurd of money and.

Streamers and there was like every movie in the world was getting funded.

And in some ways I think people got used to that and thought that

was normal, but that was a blip.

Yeah.

That's never really

been the case.

It's always been hard.

Yeah.

And there's been no money and people did it 'cause they loved doing it

and they figured out a way to do it.

Yeah.

And so,

yeah,

it's sort of back to that and I don't know, I mean, young people.

The great thing about being yelling at least, is that you don't, you're not

tied to old ways of doing things and you can figure out new ways and new

ways to make work and make a living.

And I think people who are serious and committed will do it, but

Right.

I don't really have a good tip for how to do it.

I think a new tip is always right.

Find a way.

To speak out and, and make your voice heard, find a way to be,

make your unique voice heard.

And that's something you've done in a couple different ways.

But the way that I think is perhaps the most exciting and a little confounding

for me is the live documentary experience that you've pioneered.

Yeah.

Can you go back to the birth of that idea?

Yeah.

And, and kind of describe it.

So live cinema that you're mentioning is something I've known since 2010.

And it's kind of all the elements of a movie, but it happens a lot.

So I narrate on stage, I show a bunch of images on the screen,

and a band does a live score.

And I just totally happened into this form.

It wasn't anything calculating.

I was making a movie about utopia, like three.

Four different parts woven together, and I thought it was great and I showed it

to people, a rough cut, and everybody said, this makes no sense whatsoever.

And I was completely crushed and I was stuck.

The material wasn't saying what I wanted it to say.

And Craig Baldwin in San Francisco said, Hey, will you.

Do a presentation about your project And I said, yeah,

like a fundraising presentation.

No, no, no.

Just like, will you talk about your project?

I said, cinema.

Okay.

And I said, yeah, I'll show some clips and I'll talk, and

that's sounds really boring.

So I'll get somebody to do live music.

And I did all that.

I explained like, here's what I'm gonna do.

And then I showed a clip and here's, and my friend Dave Serv made

live music and it totally worked.

It worked just the way I wanted the FEL to work.

And then I kind of was like, ah.

And somebody else asked me to come to a film vessel in Portland

and do this presentation.

And so I said, made it fancier.

And I did it and it really worked.

And I was like, maybe this is the form this movie should take.

'cause I guess part of it was I didn't wanna do a voiceover movie.

Hmm.

Voiceover movies.

I grew up or started making work at a time when voiceover movies were the worst.

Yeah.

They had sort of a negative connotation.

Totally.

I remember when I was starting too.

Yeah.

You just avoided it at all costs.

Well, and Rainbow Man and Weather Underground don't have, they have

a little bit of narration.

They do.

Okay.

But, but if you listen to somebody talk, that's a different thing.

Yeah.

So I was like, okay, if I'm nerves narrating.

You're not gonna be bored in the same way.

So I just started, you

may still be bored.

Yeah.

But just, but on the same new style.

So I submitted that live documentary to Sund and it got in and we did it here.

And I felt that would be the only time we did it.

But then all these film vessels started saying, Hey, would you do your live

documentary here in a, it was so fun.

We traveled all over the world.

It was, I've never been in a band.

Yeah.

Uhhuh.

And

I think it was as close to being in a band as.

I could be and that was fun.

Hey

Sam.

Hey Dan.

How you doing?

This is Dan.

Congratulations on your here.

I heard it was unbelievable.

You cam, they were sobbing and they were so be such.

I'm So

we're gonna come be later of the week.

The

last out.

Good.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Great to see you.

Hello?

Hey.

I swear I wasnt talking you, Dan.

I came over to film to pray for Snow Sign and I looked over and there you were.

This is Ben Sebar.

Do you know?

Hey, how you doing bagel man.

Hi.

Nice to meet you.

Yeah, thank you.

How is, uh, how's the festival tree you have?

Well,

this is Sam we should be talking about.

Let's talk.

Yeah,

we're

deep

in the same, I took it back out.

possibly do.

Have y'all work together?

We're mutual fans.

I was.

I had, one of the most powerful experiences I ever had in Sundance

was a twofer, and one of them was Sam's film with Curtis Quartet.

Thousand dollars.

Yeah.

And I saw that film and I'm trying to remember what the other film that day, and

it was like a high and a low of emotional in intensity in the same day in film.

And it was like, that's what Sundance is.

I'm trying to remember what that was a few years ago.

I remember you wrote a email I programmed,

I wrote Tabitha about that.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, did she send that to you?

Yeah,

yeah.

It was just like, it was just a very special day.

So, yeah, with Sam Speed Egyptian, it was at the, the Egyptian, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was two films at the Egyptian.

Yeah.

And it was like just a very intense experience.

all these memories.

Yeah.

Well, I, I mean, yeah.

Were you at that thing last night?

Which it was a red for gala thing.

Oh.

So the more of the same.

And

like, listen, I wouldn't have had anything without Sundance.

You know, like so many of us

there.

There's nothing.

There would be nothing without Sundance and a thousand different ways.

Yeah.

Well, we're all here to appreciate and celebrate what this means, the turning

of the page next year in Boulder.

Do you have any, any thoughts on what that might be like?

I think reinvention is always good.

Yeah.

I feel like I am in constant reinvention of what we do.

I'm reimagining what we do every few months and like how we do it and how we're

successful and what happens when we fail.

And so like, I think that's healthy.

Yeah.

So like I'm not against it and I think like, let's, let's use it as

an opportunity to make something new.

New

chapters are great.

I was, I was actually really, I chuckled because Eugene, at our screening yesterday

said, the governor's here and I was like.

Honestly the governor of your talk?

No,

the

governor

of Colorado.

Colorado.

Oh, because he was at these other, he walking around the Canada.

This was like, I am asking you, doing like a victory lap,

spiking the ball or something.

You know, it seemed the train actually just honestly it

was a little swaying, a ball.

But you know, he's sorry.

guess he's cool.

He's a democrat.

He is a Democrat and they legalized psilocybin in Colorado too.

So he is pretty progressive.

Okay.

They can make that part of the festival in the merch.

In the merch store.

Hey, that's a good, I heard here first.

Uh, well, we wanna be tree and and step on whatever it is.

You're, you're up to here, Dan.

I just, he said I came to pray for snow and instead I gotta see an old friend.

Dan Cogan, producer, executive producer, a move maker extraordinaire, awesome.

Of course at the head of Story syndicate with his wife Liz Garvis.

And so instrumental in the lives of hundreds of filmmakers

for the years that he spent at

Impact parties.

Keith, I gotta tell you, literally two weeks ago I was talking about Tower.

Oh, I

appreciate

that.

We're,

and we were talking about like how you do storytelling without AI and

without footage, and I literally was like, you have to watch.

Tower and you have to watch how it unfolds.

You have to watch the moment when the real people come in and it fucking

blows you away because you've been hearing their voices, but you don't

know if they're alive or dead.

Like you don't know where those voices came from and you don't know what

happened and you have to watch this movie.

Well, thank you Dale.

I appreciate it.

We're coming up with 10 years since that film came out, and I am feeling old.

This year Polish.

You should do something for that.

Like you should do a special screening or you should do something.

I think Keto lba we're gonna do, Ken Lba is gonna put it out on

screens across the country again.

Good.

And I'm hoping we come up to New York maybe to film for him again.

If we do, I will bug you and I'm gonna bug you for your own hour long dock walk.

Where Sam could come and crash.

Yeah.

But it is lovely to see you.

I saw you on Main Street yesterday and I wasn't sure if

you saw me across the crowd.

did not

see you.

But I wasn't gonna let another moment go by without saying hello.

Thank you for saying hi.

Uh, I owe so much to Dan.

Dan is the executive producer of Dear Mr. Brody, and one my favorite, uh, surprise

pitch meeting of all kinders experience.

Man, that was when we sat across the table and I sl those.

Letters across to you and I saw your eyes light up the way mine

did when I first heard that's,

that was fucking magic.

So thank you Dan.

There are, there are a small number of films where that happened where something

just like magic like that happens and those, that was just, that was magic.

I appreciate that you, bye.

Best, Liz.

I will,

yeah, we'll let you get back to whatever you're doing and uh, we'll see you end.

See ya.

Take it easy, man.

Um, he is documentary.

You never know what's gonna happen.

A hundred percent.

We couldn't have

scripted Dan Kogan with a guest appearance.

No, we could not.

What?

Ben and I are gonna be making our way to the Texas barbecue.

Oh, wow.

Which, if you don't have plans, then why after this walk you were invited to

experience, then tell Hill about the,

it's my favorite barbecue in Austin.

Uh, it's called KG Barbecue.

Uh, and this guy is from Cairo, Egypt.

Was a banker had, he's a young guy, so it wasn't a midlife crisis, but

basically stopped in his tracks and said, I don't want to do this.

I want to move to Texas.

And start making barbecue.

Awesome.

And he basically apprenticed with like all of the classic Texas barbecue chefs

and then opened his own Egyptian inspired Texas, but do it doing like a popup thing.

He has a still a trailer, not a big mortar in Austin, but he's been featured in like

Bon Appetit and he's like on the move,

the film commissioners around the state of Texas always throw this party

and they always bring a great chef.

That's great.

To kind of, uh, cool.

Remind the world that we, at least for us from Austin, we're a

little Blue dot and a big Red Sea.

Yeah.

And we're, we're welcoming despite, despite the politics that we're bath.

Well, you know, we were, we were deeply, uh, connecting over this, over

the, over the subject of live cinema.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I, I came up with this form and then I really loved it.

It's so fun.

It, it, you know, this is not why I do it, but it.

Is a different economy.

That's actually a very favorable economy.

Yeah.

For

artist,

well talk about that.

'cause you're not showing your film, you're not playing

these at movie theaters.

You're playing it like the bass concert hall when you come to Austin.

So it's more like performing arts,

performing arts world.

And that's a totally different world that that still has money.

Right.

And they pay people good.

And I make a living doing those shows.

And so it's, again, it's not why I was drawn to it.

Not why I do it primarily, but it is important if you're a filmmaker

to figure out how to make a living.

Yes.

And a lot of people teach and some people have trust funds.

Right.

Actually, a surprising number of people have trust funds and a lot

of cover, you know, some people have hustles doing commercial stuff.

Yeah.

That's my story.

You

gotta figure it out.

Otherwise it can't work, so.

Right.

Well, I'm underst in the performative part of it because if you start

thinking voiceover is bad.

Yeah.

Then you start using voiceover.

Yeah.

Then arguably being the star of the show.

Okay.

Like you are in live documentary is a whole other level of

it.

Yeah.

So is that something that you've sort of felt like you've took

on and slipped right into?

Or did it take some like getting used to being the,

I always

the star

thought of myself.

When I was young, I was a shy person.

And I still, you know, in some ways you still think of, if you were a fat kid,

you still think of yourself as a fat kid.

I still think of myself as a shy person, but when I started doing

these things, I did enjoy it.

I, I, but I like being nervous.

I get so nervous before a show even

still.

Oh yeah.

And I like it, you know, that's like invigorating and you pull

it off and it feels great.

But there's like, it's funny because my girlfriend Katz, who's now my wife, Katz.

Is a choreographer and showbiz person.

Performance person.

Yeah.

And so early on I said to her, cat, there's this crazy thing.

Did you know that when you're on stage you can feel the energy of the audience?

Wild.

And she was like, you know, performing Arts 1 0 1.

But I had not understood that.

And that's such an interesting thing because I think as filmmakers, we make

a film, but we never really consider.

The rule.

Yes.

The experience of it.

And it always sort of, we didn't even puzzle me that we think of

Avatar on an iMac screen and Avatar on your phone as the same movie.

Right.

When it's just so much of the movie is the context in which Sure.

Experience.

So I like all that stuff.

And is there something important about it being, uh, not able to be replicated?

Oh yeah, I like that too.

You know, the ephemeral nature of it, you know, it something sort

of like that resonates with me.

That's what our lives are like.

And you know, there's something cool about that also, just.

Now in an age where you could see any movie anytime.

Sure.

I, there's tons of stuff.

I'm like, yeah, someday I'm gonna watch that.

But,

but

you ever get Yeah.

Yeah.

If you really gotta watch it, you know, or you're never gonna have

a chance again and you do it.

And so you don't sell DVDs necessarily of the live,

I mean, I'll send somebody a link of it 'cause they have a video, but Right.

I don't distribute.

Well, that's, I'm

glad you do because I saw the credit quartet film.

Yeah.

a link.

I saw 32 sounds at the Paramount Theater in Austin.

Oh, yeah.

Thinking I was gonna get a live experience and then being told,

oh no, no, Sam's in Italy, but, you know, put on these headphones.

Yeah.

And the experience thing, and as much as the, I've never experienced

the ephemeral live performance, but, and I know it's different.

Yeah.

But getting those links, getting a chance to, yeah.

Sit on the screen.

I, the, the hook is baited and I am, I, I salivated the idea of

being in that live performance.

I I wanna ask you about the performance though, because then, and I returned

on this last night, 10 years ago when my, my, I had a film come out

and I went to a festival and the filmmaker brunch was up against.

My screening and I thought, well, I wanna meet these filmmakers,

so go to the filmmaker brush.

And Barbara Oppel was there and she grabbed my head and she

said, I'm gonna see your movie.

What are you doing here at the brush?

I said, oh, well I wanna meet you and meet her.

She's like, no, you have to go see a movie.

And I'm going too.

Oh.

And she said, she looked at me and she said, never pass up a chance to

watch your movie with an audience.

This is, this is what it's about.

And that's great.

And I've taken it to heart and, and she's right.

And she's right.

But I'm curious for you, like, what is the difference between.

Last night.

Yeah.

You were sitting in the arms hearing the personal story that you unfolded

versus being on stage presenting.

Ah.

Well,

when you do a live thing, you do it over and over and over again and it

can't exist without you're doing it.

So it's sort of part of it.

Whereas a regular movie, you have an option to just go

have a drink or something.

Yeah, and I'm still this movie, I wanted to sit through it twice

to make sure the DCP is good.

Right.

I may stop going to it, but I once was talking to Tom Powers about this question

and he said, oh, there are two filmmakers that always sit through their own films.

One is Alan Berliner, and the other may be Barbara Co.

Okay.

Wow.

Was he and was the next thing on his mouth and their fucking ego mans,

because then you have Woody Allen who famously never watches his move.

It's like, doesn't wanna see him, doesn't wanna be reminded

of what he could have done.

Yeah.

I mean, are you like me?

Like I watch the movie.

I don't, I mean, I haven't watched my own films in, in the comfort of my own home.

But if there's a screening, I will sit, I take Barbara's work to heart.

But like you, I am monitoring the V two B. I am tech checking.

I am also editing, tweaking, beating myself up, kicking myself in the shins.

Yeah.

Do you do that or, or do you release?

Well, I feel like I, this is sound funny and I don't mean, I

hope this doesn't sound weird, but I always get all my movies.

I work on them long enough so that I kind of love every shot and every edit.

So I don't, I often, they're like old friends.

I see 'em and I'm like, there was this great Louis Armstrong quote, which I wish

I could really remember, where somebody asked him if he liked his records and he

said, I'm like an old crow with it's kids.

They're all white as snow to me.

Huh?

Something like, you know, he sees his own self as great, even if,

yeah.

I can tell you Ben really doesn't like it when we talk about birds on this podcast.

It's, oh shit, it really sticks in his crawl.

But

it's good.

Do crows, I guess Crows get birthed A little white

little.

Oh, they're little black crows.

And the joke is like, you know, are all is white of snow to me.

I see.

Um.

Well, the patron Saint of Austin, just to finish this stop, Willie Nelson is

famous for listening to only his records.

Wow, that's great.

Great.

He hosts a like weekly poker game.

Yeah.

The only music playing it up in the game is his music.

That's

so good.

I have a quote that I love that maybe apocryphal.

I, I, I think it probably is right that Willie Nelson said recently, I think

the young people these days should really consider the world they're

leaving to Keith Richards and me.

Yes.

No, that's true.

They should think about Willie because he can.

I like all of us, those two guys,

we could keep talking on and on, but we are close to where we began and

we know that you have a busy slate back to ease and you know, whatnot.

Ben likes to end these episodes with a lightning round of questions.

Okay.

If you've got it, I'm gonna hit you with the first one.

What is the Gateway Drug Film?

What is the documentary or nonfiction story that like caught a spark

in your eye and made you say

for me, I wanna do

that for you,

salesman.

Oh,

nasal

salesman.

That's a great one.

And why?

And

also San Sole.

Ah, we were talking about, we were talking to me about that this

morning.

Yep.

So talk about that because it obviously, well, I, I went to journalism school

and I was gonna be a newspaper reporter and I took this documentary class and

I never had watched movies as a kid.

I'd never watched documentaries.

I only knew documentaries as like boring PBS stuff.

And so in the class people, it was so long ago, people would circulate VHS tapes.

Yeah.

Bootleg things of movies.

And so somebody gave me salesman, I'd never seen anything like it.

It was so.

Cool and beautiful and interesting.

And then somebody gave me San Soleil and I, I took it home.

I got high and I watched it and was just like, what the fuck is this?

This is working on a level of communication that I have

not experienced in four.

Yeah.

So I watched it again, not stoned, to see if it would just been

that I was stoned and it did the same thing and I just was so.

In love with that way of making something that moves people in a way

that's not just talking, you know?

Right.

There's, it's such an odd magic.

Yeah.

Kind of cinematic magic.

So those two movies,

he's making such unexpected associations.

Oh, yeah.

Between things and that movie, and he's doing it in like, what was

that, the late fifties, early sixties or something where it was like,

yeah, seventies, I think.

No, it was in the sixties.

See, it was early enough to buy, nobody had made something like that before.

Yeah.

Where he was taking archival film and commenting on it in his way.

That just felt totally new.

As we've mentioned, this is a podcast for people starting out in documentary.

Yeah.

Falling in love with it.

Yeah.

What would your advice be to somebody who is starting out

ah, that wants to make films?

Yes.

Oh, try to you that you, I would say two things.

Make small projects.

Don't take on some huge five year project where you need hundreds

to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars, because in the beginning it's

all about making things and learning and making sure things and have fun.

It's so fucking hard.

If you're not having fun, it's not worth it.

Yeah.

So.

That is something I would say the through line of your movies is

that they, they feel very playful.

Like you're working with your friends, it feels like, and you're having a good time.

Like I'm thinking of the sins in 32 sounds when like you and JD or

someone just playing around with the microphone and that just looks

so exciting to be there, you know?

Yeah.

Sweet.

I mean, it is fun, but there's a sweetness that comes from your heart that I think

is, I really appreciate, you know,

or like the handmade signs that you make, right.

This person in your world, you know, it's like, there's just a sort

of innocent playfulness about it.

Yeah.

And then the last question is, uh, what is the thing that you cannot

stop thinking about right now?

And it doesn't have to be film related, just what's, what's rattling

around in your brain right now?

So I have been living in Venice, Italy for Wow.

Okay.

And.

I am a different person there.

Oh,

hmm.

How so?

Well, just you go in a new environment, you become, so I, in Venice, Italy, I,

I've built people that I've taken on an older ego named Sam to Sam Green.

Okay.

And so I've never been in a sport.

It's, but in Samuel today is into the Venice soccer team.

It's a professional soccer team.

Oh, okay.

And they're awesome.

They're kicking ass.

And they won this morning, five to two.

I watched it at 7:00 AM You

got up early

watch seven.

You're officially a soccer

fan.

So that's what I've been thinking.

That's in my mind.

I'm embarrassed to say it's, you know, I, uh, baby off brand for this.

No, it's unbranded.

I don't mean to be like a unrepentant ambassador for Austin.

That's usually bedr.

But the soccer club in Austin, Austin fc, their, their slogan is so most bare day.

So we're

gonna

send

you

a hat.

I'm gonna get you a hat up to you.

That is true.

I think we're remiss just a little bit in talking about how it's the end of.

An right here at Sundance.

So do you just have any like final thoughts maybe about like

what this, what this means here?

The last

Oh, I do.

I mean it is the end of an era and you know, it's like I think

the film world has changed.

The world has changed.

Think about it.

We're li we're, we're heading into a very different world.

And so in a way it makes sense we're starting a new chapter and that's good.

And I hope personally, and for you guys too, not to be too old to

get with this new, new time and new chapter.

I want to at least, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

It's exciting.

It's the future.

Future growing.

Well, like you we're, we're dads of young children and we know that

those kids have a responsibility to Willie and Keith to do, to rape

them, to make a world for them.

We know they are part in that too.

Yeah.

But, but I will say like, you know, yes.

Things.

Can feel sort of overwhelming and dark.

But then I see a movie like Your New one and it's like, reminds me of everything

I love about this art form and why I decided to do this for a living.

And like I am sort of reminded of the beauty of being alive

and I, I'm so appreciative that you made that kind of work.

So thank

you.

Sweet.

That's alright.

Cheers,

Tim, thanks so much.

Really

appreciate it.

Thank

you Keith.

Enjoy again.

Thank you.

This episode is sponsored in part by the Austin Film Society, the 40-year-old

film institution founded by Richard Linkletter, Austin Film Society supports

nonfiction filmmaking year round through its monthly doc nights series at a FS

Cinema, along with its annual documentary film festival doc days held every may.

Learn more@austinfilm.org.

This episode is also sponsored by the Longtime.

The Longtime is a one of a kind event space located in Austin, Texas,

hosting everything from Sandlot baseball to commercial film shoots,

art exhibitions to surprise weddings.

It's the perfect home for your next creative gathering.

The time is the home of the Texas Playboys Baseball Club.

The host of the Annual Wizard Rodeo and available for private events year round.

Learn more@thelongtime.com.

Next time on Doc Walks, we are still at Sundance, at least

as far as these episodes go.

We're taking it to the streets main street.

That is Ben and I will greet the people.

We will track down filmmakers, film fans, film programmers.

Anyone really willing to step up to the mic and share their thoughts on

this year's Sundance, this year's slate of films and this year in

independent filmmaking coming up.

So please join us next time.

And Doc Walks.

Doc Walks is created, produced, and edited by my friend Ben Steinhower of the Bear.

Hello and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for tuning in.