EP034 – High, Low, Buffalo, Mitzvah w/ Sally O’Grady

12.18.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 34

As we close-out of our first year of doc’in & walkin’ it’s time to take stock in what this podcast is all about. We’re excited to welcome self-proclaimed number one fan and Australian-born doc-maker, Sally O’Grady for a year-end, Year in Review episode. This nature-walk snakes through the wilderness behind Sally’s North Austin home as Ben intros us to a game of “High, Low, Buffalo, Mitzvah” (a Steinbauer family dinner game) and a chance to reflect on the ups, downs, weird little moments and the true mitzvahs of our first 33 episodes. We’ll catch up with some favorite Doc Walks bits, dig into what’s working, get schooled on our Bechdel Test failures (eight women out of 33 guests—Sally came with receipts), and navigate the eternal tension between preparation and off-the-cuff authenticity. And Sally shares her 10-year journey making THE TROUBLE I SEE, a film about incarcerated fathers and their daughters, premiering at AFS Cinema on January 14th (tix on sale now!)

Along the way: a surprise encounter with an 86-year-old Vietnamese general-turned-crossing guard, a sit-down at Sally’s Pond™, and a chance to commune with a magnificent blue heron who refuses to fly. Through the highs, the lows, the birds and the buffaloes, every step we’ve taken together in 2025 has been a mitzvah… happy holidays to you, and thanks for walking this road with us!

Discussion Links

THE TROUBLE I SEE (2025) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2010) | TOWER (2016) | HIGH HOPES (2024) | PEEWEE PLAYS HIMSELF (2025)

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction and Sally O’Grady arrives 01:05 Sally as “number one fan” and Doc Walks origin story 02:00 Discovering Copperfield Nature Trail in northeast Austin 03:00 Sally’s journey from Sydney to New York to Austin 05:00 Year one reflections and holiday episode setup 06:30 Do Ben-and-Keith-only episodes work? Sally weighs in 08:30 “Gardener Not a Carpenter” and useful documentary wisdom 10:00 Ben’s vulnerability about prep vs. free-jazz conversations 11:00 Keith on wanting episodes to feel more like real conversations 13:00 The magnificent blue-painted live oak 14:30 High-Low-Buffalo-Mitzvah game explained 16:00 Sally’s HIGH: Diane Quon’s sensitive interview and Megan Gilbride’s “make fucking cinema” 18:00 The title debate: why “Make Fucking Cinema” got vetoed 20:30 Keith’s HIGH: Matt Wolf episode and overcoming fears about solo Ben episodes 23:30 Ben’s HIGH: Celebrating Maureen Gosling and Les Blank’s legacy 26:00 Sally’s LOW: The Bechdel Test reality check (8 women out of 33 guests) 28:30 Ben and Keith respond to diversity critique 31:00 Ben’s LOW: The off-camera conflict moment with Keith 34:30 Keith’s LOW: Wanting guests to recognize them as fellow filmmakers 38:30 Buffalo: Matt Wolf’s vanity and Ben’s “tugboat” gaffe 40:00 Keith’s Buffalo: Birds and describing the world 42:00 Ben’s Buffalo: Embracing new formats amid industry change 43:30 Meeting Sally’s neighbor Bowie, the 86-year-old Vietnamese general 46:30 Keith’s mitzvah and development deal announcement 47:00 The blue heron finally appears 50:00 Sally’s film THE TROUBLE I SEE and 10-year journey 54:00 Working with editor Sandra Guardado 57:30 Sally’s next project: MA’AM and scammers targeting women therapists 1:01:00 Closing reflections and 2026 preview

And I'm rolling.

You rolling?

Geez.

Oh my goodness.

We have with us today, Keith, tell me Ben self proclaimed professed number one fan.

Mm-hmm.

And friend who was there from the very beginning of the podcast.

Sally O'Grady.

Hi.

So I'm just, I like the coffee, but I'm just putting it away.

Sally o Grady may be our number one fan.

I'll let her attest to that or not.

Although it is self-professed.

She told me that.

But I like to think of Sally as documentary filmmaker extraordinaire,

commercial production company owner.

Strong minded, not afraid to tell you her opinion.

Good friend, who I sometimes walk with and, uh, love rub that in.

And an alumnus of the A FS Doc Intensive Laboratory, which is where

we met probably five or six years ago.

Mm-hmm.

that right?

Do, how was that intro?

Did we do a good, John?

That was a great intro.

I really liked it.

All right.

That's, that's a, that's a good episode, folks.

We'll catch you next time.

What did we miss in that intro?

Because Sally, I understand that you and Keith are longtime friends.

Oh, man.

I feel like I'm walking through posing Poke right here.

Oh.

Or Ivy.

Yeah, I

know.

I think it's fine.

I agree.

Famous last words.

Yeah, no, it's fine.

I walk, I walk here sometimes twice a day.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, so I'm, yeah, no worries.

Well, I was saying just don't rub your face in it.

Oh boy.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walks with Ben and Keith.

Where

the

s are we?

So this is technically Walnut Creek, I believe.

Pretty sure that's what this is.

It's called Copperfield Nature Trail.

Oh yeah.

And

it was like a sort of crazy massive chaos until some of the neighbors spent a lot

of time creating a path and a trail.

Sometimes we do little cleanups here.

This is northeast Austin,

correct?

Yeah.

And this is

a cool trail that I've never been on.

Yeah, same.

I have never been over to this area and so this is awesome.

We're getting a, we're getting a peek into Sally's life here,

this breaking new ground.

This is fantastic.

Mm-hmm.

But I didn't get the story of, you obviously have an Australian accent.

I don't know when you came over.

I don't know any of your backstory, so could you please

tell me a little bit about that?

Oh,

this is a fake accent.

This is how I, this is how I make friends.

This is how I network.

You're actually from Denton.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, that's right.

You know, I don't wanna be too long-winded.

I could tell you so many details about my life.

But you may not wanna know.

Well, I mean, this sounds pretty juicy.

I think I'm already very interested.

you like that as a little tease?

Yeah.

Okay.

So yeah, be careful friends.

Yeah.

This is, uh, we are hiking here on dock walks.

Um, okay.

So I, I grew up in Sydney.

I had a life there.

I lived, I was interested in film from an early age, but then sort of pivoted a bit

to getting more interested in social work.

Yeah, I read that you worked with who it was like sex workers and,

and people who had drug problems.

Exactly.

So that was a great interest of mine, but that's a very hard field.

I just realized truly I was interested in film and I moved to New York in 2003.

Apart from Sydney?

From Sydney, yeah.

Interesting.

' cause I had a good friend who'd moved there and she said, you should move here.

It's really easy.

Much easier than you would imagine.

New York.

I mean, in the sense of just for something so dry, as in Australia,

they're really strict labor laws.

You can't just rock up to Australia and get a job.

You know?

You have to, you have to have paperwork.

Whereas in New York, I just was able to work as a waitress and I

interned at a documentary production company and just kind of realized

that I liked documentaries.

I initially went to New York wanting to do cinematography.

Oh, okay.

For features and narratives wasn't, wasn't necessarily documentary.

Right.

Okay.

And I find that very hierarchical and very difficult.

Mm.

And I didn't like that world.

So then I just sort of, I had a little bit of experience working

as an archival researcher, and then I just worked in docs.

I met my husband in New York and we lived there for several years.

And then it sort of.

It became a bit too much freelance life.

Mm-hmm.

And I got pregnant and then we moved to Richmond, Virginia.

Okay.

To be near his family.

Yeah.

Oh, of course.

And then Richmond, Virginia was sort of too small,

kind of like a Goldilocks, uh, metaphor baked into the story.

Right.

So then eventually we just ended up in Austin and which was

just Right.

Truly just right.

Aw.

Yeah.

So there's, we we're gonna get into more about who Sally is and

Sally's work, and we're gonna talk about Sally's new film, but mm-hmm.

Before that, we should take note of what time of year it is.

It is the holiday season.

It is the end of the year, and it is about 35 episodes of Doc walks in the books.

Mm-hmm.

That's

right.

And so

this is, this is our year

end episode.

We're calling this, this is the Doc walks year in review.

Mm-hmm.

And originally it was gonna be just me and Ben.

Mm-hmm.

And just kind of reflecting on the year.

But Ben doesn't like it as much when it's just me and Ben.

That's true.

Yes.

I feel very vulnerable and it's just me alone with Keith.

Do you wanna talk

more about that for a minute?

Well, actually, you are the perfect person to ask about this because as our

self proclaimed number one fan, I feel like when we do the episodes, just the

two of us, that it, it feels a little self-congratulatory maybe, and that it's

not as interesting to people as when we bring on other filmmakers mm-hmm.

And learn about them and talk about their work.

Mm-hmm.

It, it is, there's some version of like, I don't know how valuable that is to others.

So that's my continual concern about doing those episodes.

Mm-hmm.

Well, one thing I just wanna clarify, I, I am your num, I do think I'm your number

one fan, 'cause I've listened to every episode except one, but it's also a bit

of a turn of phrase, just so you know.

Number one,

true.

And I am a great consumer of.

Things and culture and I am a bit of an obsessive, but yes, this is,

well you're saying this isn't your whole life and then she's not stalking you, Ben.

And people out there didn't get the wrong idea

about Sally.

Right.

And also you were there from the beginning because that's true.

We shared a condo at Sundance.

That's right.

And literally that was like our second episode say ever do.

So you literally saw it, like saw as it was becoming, I was like,

these jokers are not gonna get this done kicked.

This is never going

anywhere.

I know that.

You're very, very fixed, exceedingly competent people.

So yes, to answer your question, I love the episodes where

it's just the two of you.

Oh, sorry.

To break your little heart.

And the rea part of the reason is 'cause the reason I love Doc Walks

is 'cause it's very refreshing and it fills a hole in the docu, in the podcast

space where it's authentic, relatable content about documentary filmmaking.

But there's also often.

A surprising, useful fact.

Mm. Which I don't, I listen to other podcasts about documentaries

and they're not nearly as good.

And I think the, the, the episodes where it's just the two of you,

you really get those facts.

Like one of my favorites is Gardener, not a Carpenter, which

is one of the early episodes.

And that was just the two of you, right?

Yeah.

And I think it's lovely and I'd never heard that phrase.

And I, I think about that quite a lot.

So these kind of phrases can't come up when you're bringing

a new person into the fold.

You're talking to them, you've gotta get their biography, which,

you know, sometimes we could just look that up on Wikipedia, you know?

So I'm just, I find the conversation between the two of

you very unique and I love it.

I just don't want it to feel self-congratulatory.

Well, I will say us filming ourselves and talking about that

wise, we are, that's a good quality.

That feels,

I, when I, but I think that that's a great note.

And I think we are self-congratulatory too much because, because we only

do it for like, these kind of like quarterly kind of reviews, right?

And so now we're talking about.

That thing that we already did and which is what we're kind of doing this episode.

So maybe we'll take that note for another episode.

But what I love about the episodes of just Ben and I is I never know

what Ben's gonna say, and I don't think he knows what I'm gonna say.

'cause he can't, 'cause I don't know what I'm gonna say.

We don't usually know what we're gonna talk about.

True.

And so like, it's an actual authentic reaction moment.

Yeah.

And when I am saying something, it's in reaction to what you're saying.

When you're saying something, it's in reaction to what I'm saying.

So it's actually a conversation.

And that is what my favorite thing.

And, and honestly from the beginning of the podcast, what we sought to do is

replicate the walks that we take, right?

Mm-hmm.

Where we have good conversations that sometimes challenge each other Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And often bolster each other.

I think we both leave feeling emboldened and, and strengthened

and optimistic typically.

Yeah.

Or, or at least heard and commiserated, uh, in our misery.

Yeah.

And some of the episodes where we interview other filmmakers, which I

think I, I, I think they're interesting.

But we, we fall back into the mode of interviewers.

Yeah.

Which we do professionally.

Yeah.

And it's less of a conversation.

And so my goal would be to find, and has been, and I think we'll

continue to be, to find the way to make the con the, the episodes

with guests more of a conversation.

Mm. And to make the episodes with us.

Mm-hmm.

Not trigger those feelings in you.

Mm-hmm.

Like to make them more comfortable for you.

Yeah.

So that they don't feel like you're doing something you do, do you don't

wanna do or that you're doubting.

Yeah.

Because, and maybe the thing is preparation, because I'm a preparer, I

like to have the presentation of what I'm gonna say, and then I'd like to

then sort of go perform it in a way.

And so when we just sort of free jazz about whatever the

topic might be, it, I'm not.

I, I can do it.

I just don't know how valuable it is.

And so I don't want to get in the mode of like, well, we can just,

you know, fart this out and people will listen to it like I want to.

And I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting.

I just more like that's my mindset about like, I want to prepare and

know what we're talking about and have something to offer if we're

asking people to give us their time.

Well, I think we can do both.

I think you can.

I feel like I might Do you wanna walk down here?

Let's shoot it.

Yes,

let's do it.

Let's do it.

I don't think the heron's here.

I haven't seen the heron.

Sally promised a heron.

Oh, it was on the menu of likely.

Uh, be careful.

I've just

got kind of, but then

she started backtracking in preparation of this walk that

I think that is a fantastic name for the episode.

Sally promised a heron.

Wow.

This is really pretty.

Yeah.

This, this, yeah, this.

There's another little pond where you can see the back of my house.

You wanna see that one?

Yeah.

Just maybe keep walking.

Well, I don't wanna boss you guys around

you.

Oh yeah.

Stop bossing us around.

Okay.

So the point of this episode is a year in review.

Yeah.

And I feel like we've done a as good a job as we can so far of bringing a mix of, of

film filmmakers with brand new films out on the circuit or in in current release,

and filmmakers who have walked a path sometimes in the recent past, sometimes

in the distant past, sometimes a literal

path

as we're

walking right now, almost every

time.

Pretty light.

That is so pretty.

Yeah.

The sun coming through the, the trees.

Look at that.

There's some weather phenomenon happening today.

Sorry to digress.

It's a solar flare something.

Something

Solar flare something,

yeah.

Really?

Ah, how adventurous are you feeling?

I'm always up for an adventure.

All right, let's do it.

Okay.

So we, like I said, Ben likes to prep or as he said, he likes to prep and he

did prep for this conversation sharing a game that his family plays that I

don't know anything about and I don't think Sally knows anything about.

But before we do that, can we please just talk about this fucking amazing tree?

Yes.

This is the tree.

Okay.

I know not much about this tree, but it's beloved.

We love this tree.

Yeah, this

is really fantastic.

Look at this.

Yeah,

it's really beautiful.

And if you are feeling really adventurous, which we don't have to be, if we cut

through this trail, this kind of little creek diagonally, that's my house.

So that doesn't wanna

do that.

It not the orange one.

I dunno what I'm, anyway, this is so sometimes I can walk through the back.

Climb over the fence.

And

she's a real Reed Harkness over here.

I strong.

You really are.

You're about to kick your shoes off and get in that creek, aren't ya?

Oh, I really love that episode.

Read's the best.

He was.

Oh my goodness.

That's one of my favorites.

Okay.

But I don't wanna, I do.

Look, some people are listening to this show and they don't know

anything about this fucking tree.

Yeah.

And we just said it's great and it's beloved, and I'm sure it is.

But let's describe this tree.

Let's do a round robin.

Okay.

Of words that describe this tree.

And I will start out by saying this, it is spray painted blue, which I

don't love, but at this moment, I am

glad.

Sally, you wanna go next?

Oh,

it's gnarled

Gnarled.

It is a, and I will finish up by saying it looks like it has been

here for an exceedingly long time.

Yeah, yeah.

And it has these sort of beautiful tentacles that go in all directions

that have different degrees of green branches coming off of them.

And this tree looks sort of magical for that

reason.

Mm-hmm.

Well, it is a not very healthy, very old live oak.

And the reason why you could tell it is not very healthy is because

most of these neural branches do not have live green leaves on them.

Mm. But a couple of them do up top, which lets us know that it is a live

oak, which is the, the tree of Austin.

And, and almost every time we stop and admire a tree, it's a live oak.

It's a live oak, yeah.

Um, because the arms just reach out and grab you.

And they look like they have a story to tell.

They really do.

Yep.

And as storytellers, we, we recognize a good story when we see one.

Yeah.

And sometimes a good game.

And Ben's got a game that he wants to play for a year review.

Uh, what is that game?

That's true.

So at our house, at dinnertime mm-hmm.

I have a 6-year-old and a two and a half year old.

Mm-hmm.

And what we like to do is play this game called High low Buffalo Mitzvah.

Mm-hmm.

And we all go around the table and we say the best part of the day mm-hmm.

Which is the high mm-hmm.

The worst part, which is the low uhhuh or the not so great part.

Yeah.

The buffalo is something funny.

Okay.

Or something interesting.

Cute.

Yep.

That happens.

Yep.

And then the mitzvah is something nice mm-hmm.

That we have done for another person, the earth or an animal.

Aw, very lovely.

So when we were thinking about what could we.

Do on our mm-hmm.

Yearend review.

Mm-hmm.

I suggested we could do high low buffalo mitzvah mm-hmm.

For the year.

Mm-hmm.

The first year of dock walks.

How do we do it?

Do we all do a high, then we all do a low, then we all do a buffalo.

Normally

what happens at our house, and this is not how we have to do it mm-hmm.

Is that it goes by person.

So one person would do all four, and then we go to the next person.

Good.

And the next person good and next person.

But be, I think for maybe our purposes, it makes the most sense if we all, if we

do high and then everybody does their high and everybody does a low Oh, that's, yeah.

Okay.

So we can mix it up that way.

Okay.

Let's hit the road while we do it.

Okay.

That

sounds good.

Okay.

So Sally, since you are a guest of honor, would you like to lead us off?

Okay.

My first high is Diane Kwan.

Ooh.

It was such a good interview.

It was good because it was one of your early episodes.

One of the things I liked about it most was it's was sort of like.

The vessel and the subject were all intertwined.

So it was like we had this moment where Keith, I think, conducted the interview

and she was talking about something really devastating her son dying.

And it was just this really beautiful, sensitively conducted

interview in a crowded space, a difficult thing to talk about.

And I just thought Keith did it so deftly.

And then the result was that it was a really great sort of segment with her.

Mm. So not only just her story's interesting.

Right?

Yeah.

Which do you want me to, she's fantastic.

No, that, yeah, that was great.

So I

thought that was really, really, and I just think it's a really

nice example of what Duck Walks is.

And then I think the Meghan Gilbride episode was so good, and if anyone has not

listened to it, you should, because she covers a lot of really interesting things.

One is, which is kind of interesting for a producer, she talks about how

well she and Keith talk about how.

An artist or a filmmaker is always making the same film over and over again.

And I do think that's the case of a true artist.

Like a true artist has a through line and her through line is

community, which is beautiful.

And, and then, but then she was very funny.

Like she said, five times just make fucking cinema, which was a

You wanna make fucking cinema?

Yeah.

She said it about five or six times, which was just very

entertaining to me and also accurate.

And then there was many more, there are many more good moments

in that, but, and, and ran and talked about the Princess Bride.

She talked about all that jazz.

Like there was just kind of wild, but every point she made was

useful and interesting and helpful.

I think

it's the

best.

I love that.

I don't, maybe not every point

was helpful.

That's a bit supposedly.

Can I tell

you a funny insider story about that?

Yeah.

So that was clearly going to be the name of the episode.

Make Fucking Rum.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And I want you to know that I am the one who said no, no.

Oh.

We are a starting a family show.

We're a family show.

We are.

You

got some pretty light up.

We,

I know isn't beautiful.

Oh, you don?

Yeah, I got the, I got the POV shot.

We are reaching out to sponsors.

Oh, I see.

We are asking celebrity guests to come aboard.

believe I accused Ben of clutching his pearls during

our strong disagreement on that.

And there strong disagreement.

And Keith and I have gotten into a couple of, I wouldn't call them fights or not

even really spats, but we've gotten into, they're definitely not fights.

I just wanna be

clear.

Some strong disagreements.

Yeah.

Well that is

collaborating was,

and that was one of them.

And, oh, but so what?

But I also learned something in that.

I never got a chance to share this with you, Ben.

Well,

I'm gonna, because not only, not only did, did I want to name it,

do you wanna make fucking cinema?

Ben was open to the concept of the name.

He wanted to change it.

Do you wanna make effing cinema with with stars?

And that was my biggest frustration is the censorship.

But this is what I learned.

We would've been fucked if we did that.

Oh,

because, wait, which, which way did the class?

Okay.

Your concern is right, that at least an Apple podcast.

Megan looked it up.

I told Megan about the conversation and she's like, oh, you know,

I've had this conversation before.

Yeah.

And she looked it up.

Apple Podcast will not platform things with With curse words.

With curse words in it.

Yeah.

But they also want platform things with censor,

censored, curse words in it.

Oh, that's funny.

And you know what?

And so you were right.

My argument about it was that, listen, I made Winnebago Man, which is.

Full of obscenities.

And we dealt with this constantly.

And so there was always the conversation around not safe

for work versus safe for work.

We had to make different version.

It was a total pain.

Mm. And so my point was if we want to reach an audience with this show,

which we're trying to do, we should just avoid the issue entirely.

I see.

And name it something else, but that was clearly the best thing.

I didn't like the idea when I found out that Apple wouldn't

make it available to people.

Right.

Yeah.

And now I'm just pissed at Apple and no longer pissed at Ben.

Hey.

So it's a win.

It's a win systemic issue.

So I will just warn you that these are some gnarly little roots.

Mm-hmm.

And I've tripped twice recently.

What?

On my little jogs, so yeah, I don't Oh, you

jog back here.

Wait to just do a little trail run.

Yeah.

Nice little humble brag there.

I like that.

I know when I'm back here doing my thousand

sit-ups, it's my turn to do a high and one of my highs trip is.

The Matt Wolf episode.

Ah, yeah.

Um, and it's high.

It's a high for two reasons.

One, it's a high because it helped me overcome a fear.

Oh.

And that fear was once Ben got a taste of doing so just for those

who haven't checked out, Matt Wolf is the director of peewee plays

himself among many other films.

And Ben had a chance to go to New York for work and he snuck in an interview

with Matt Wolf while he was there.

It was the first episode without me.

Yes.

And it was the first episode where, uh, one of us traveled without

the other, and I think it was our first video episode too, wasn't it?

And it was also That's right.

It was so for three reasons is a high one.

I was concerned that when Ben got a taste of doing the podcast without

me, he'd never come back to me.

Oh, oh, oh buddy.

So it's a high, because then I overcame two is a high because.

Ben's theory about doing this podcast with video cameras, which I am still

not entirely sold on, proved itself out.

And, and Ben got to pat himself on the back and I got to seed some ground in

this argument, but not all the ground.

And, and finally three, because it's a really great episode because Matt

Wolf, you know, that is a guy who has strong feelings, who does the work for

his own reasons, who makes great work.

Yes.

And who connected with Ben, you know, two guys that don't know each other really.

I mean, had met, I think in the festival circuit years ago, but weren't

exactly, you know, buddies, right.

And, and connected at the true core of what this show is meant to be.

And, and, and frequently is.

But in that moment really was, which is two working filmmakers

finding common ground to recognize, you know, a colleagueship.

And, and so what I love about the show.

And I got to experience it purely as a, as a watcher and a listener.

Mm-hmm.

And on top of that, I didn't have to edit it because I wasn't there for it.

And so

can I just tell you that I am shocked that that is your high I love that so much.

And you have just thoroughly surprised me because what I'm here for, because

I know that that was difficult.

Don't look at for you.

And so I'm really, I'm, I'm, I, I'm sort of speechless honestly, that

that's your, that that's your eye.

So that's really interesting.

And I, I love that.

And I would never want to do the show without you.

Part of the whole thing is that we walk and we have this relationship, and that

to me is what I think is interesting and I value, and I wanted to do more of, which

is why I wanted to start the podcast.

Oh,

so self-congratulatory.

Uh, thank you, Ben.

No, it was, it was great.

It's a really great episode.

And, you know, as the year went on and, you know, we're rolling

into award season, you know, Matt had a great year at the Emmy's.

Peewee plays himself, um, made an impact.

Uh, and is, you know, really one of those kind of breakthrough films.

I mean, not a surprise, it's Peewee Herman.

It's a big celebrity doc.

Yeah.

It's got some, some meat on the bone and some real drama and tension.

Absolutely.

And then Matt, of course is, you know, just a great, a great

filmmaker and a great storyteller.

Yeah.

That

really drew him out.

And then he passed away during the making of it.

Not Matt,

the Peewee,

sorry.

Yes.

Paul Rutins.

And they had a like really conflictual, sort of tormented relationship as

two artists trying to work together.

And yeah, the whole thing was really magical.

Real doc walks kind of vibe.

Conflictual, uh, man, uh, look at this.

Good boy right here.

How's it going?

And also a beautiful dog.

Okay, well let's see.

Look at, so mine, my high for this year is, frankly, I'm feeling a

little guilty about it 'cause it's kind of a selfish one in a way.

And you guys both just did such beautiful, unselfish.

Choices.

That's when you prepare.

Now you're locked in.

No, now I'm like, oh, I just came

up with that Matt Wolf thing on the fly.

I get no thought to what my high was until my mouth opened.

Okay.

See, I'm learning.

This is, this is a growth moment.

My high was getting the chance to celebrate Maureen Gosling because I often

credit less blank as being one of the main reasons that I love documentary filmmaking

and that I became a documentarian.

And she is such a huge part of making those films.

And you know, Les gets the credit and we talk about that in the episode.

But frankly, she was there.

She produced, she recorded the sound, she edited the movies.

I mean, she, without her, those films would not be the same.

And I've always thought of those as less blank films.

And the longer I make.

Work, the more I realize it's a team sport and getting to celebrate

her as such an important part of that team really meant a lot to me.

And then there's a moment in it where she gives me this look.

And I think she was a little suspicious of me for a while

because I was fanboying out.

But she gives me this look about halfway through when I compliment her.

And you can really, I, I just saw it land.

I saw sort of like how much the work meant to her register on her face.

And it made me feel great to give her that spotlight.

Awesome.

Yeah.

That was my high.

Another lovely episode.

Let's talk about the lows.

Yeah.

Okay.

Alright.

So Sally, that means you are up.

Oh.

So what would your, what would your low mos Oh

God.

In doc walks.

Okay.

Be,

um.

I'm gonna do, Hey, do you wanna pause?

This is not the best.

Oh, we can just pause it.

Pause.

See, this

is really pretty right here.

Look at this.

How did Ben die?

Well,

nobody knows.

He went on a walk of friends, but they said they didn't see what happened to him.

And his body was never discovered

because we were talking about the lows of duck walks.

He got right handed.

I, I know a dog

walk has been bin, fell off that cliff and we just ran 'cause

we didn't know what to do.

So, do you know what the BeWell test is?

Oh, I sure do.

Oh.

Remind me, I don't think I do now.

Uh oh.

Well, the Bechtel test, it was created by a woman called, I think Alison Bechtel.

She was a comic book artist, and she just created this metric

about the representation of women in film and television and.

goes on a scale, but essentially if a woman is on a TV show in to, to

sort of support the man romantically or to, to kind of develop the man's

character, then it's a low score.

And the only way to get a high score is if the woman is in the production

and she's central character doing all the fun stuff, being a protagonist.

And I think you guys really failed.

I'm sorry to be so harsh.

No, we need it.

This is, we're here for it.

You've, you've

done 32 or 33 episodes.

Yep.

And you have eight women.

Ooh.

You're counting Who are by themselves.

I know.

It feels like more, I know it feels like more to you guys, but it's only eight.

I'm not counting Amanda McBain.

Sorry.

And that incredible woman, Colleen casing ham.

Right.

Because they were there supporting a man.

And also you had three women of color only.

And one black man.

Yeah.

So you just, you just need to, I know it's hard.

I know that you've been trying and I know that maybe it's hard to schedule.

Yeah.

But you just need to try harder and it's not about parity, you

know, we're not going for parody, we're going for corrective bias.

Right.

There are less women in filmmaking.

We just, and any sort of any, we're impacting the culture.

We need to help and you know, also just help people who are less privileged.

Right.

Yeah.

People who don't see themselves represented in the culture.

I hear that.

And that's a fair criticism.

And I will just say, and I don't this offensively, but I do want you to hear,

and I want all our listeners to hear, we try so hard to schedule a diverse roster.

Yeah.

And it's, there is an interesting gender divide and I will be

so bold as to call it that.

Mm-hmm.

Because it is very difficult

mm-hmm

To book women on the show.

Then it is to book a man.

And, and I, I have noticed I'm, and I know you're giving me that

look and I probably deserve it.

Men, when they're asked to jump at the opportunity, women need a lot of coaxing

and aren't necessarily comfortable being on camera or talking about themselves.

And I think that is a, a difference.

And I have noticed it as somebody who is trying to book mm-hmm.

Weekly guests on a show that there is, that that is pretty consistent.

Middle-aged white men jump at the opportunity to talk into a camera.

Without a doubt.

We've had almost nobody say, no, I know.

Let's true.

And the people who have said no are all women.

The point stands and Sally's absolutely right.

We just have to try harder.

Yeah.

And I don't think, like, I don't know the exact numbers.

I'd be really curious.

I think women are much more highly representative in documentary film

than they are in scripted film.

That's

true.

And

it's women, women of color, because

it's lower, lower paid, certainly are.

Yeah.

Bringing up like who we're booking and how we're booking

them is an interesting thing.

It's a good note.

You're absolutely right.

We will continue to, to try.

Keep trying.

Yeah.

please, if you're listening, we would love to host you or other filmmakers

that you think we should have.

And Sally, if you want to give us a list, we would love to

reach out to those people.

I do have that list.

So we are, we're in support of that and actively trying to correct it.

And I will say that our Sundance episode, man on the Streets, both

Sue Kim and Sarah and Mohammad, who made cutting through rocks.

Mm. Which is having a great Yeah.

You know, end of year real moment kind of are people that we would love to get

a chance to do more than three minutes on the side of the road with, like we

did at Sance, and we hope you correct

that.

Yeah.

This Sure.

So that's a great, it's a great note.

I mean, this is what, look, we asked for lows, and I appreciate the honesty.

Let's keep talking, keep walking.

Okay.

So, Keith.

Yes.

What is your low Oh, geez.

After that, what is my low?

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, my, I'm gonna punt to you, Ben.

Okay.

Since you're prepped.

Well,

we haven't, uh, consulted with each other about our lows, so I'm gonna ask you.

Mm-hmm.

How revealing should I, Ooh, uh, should I let juicy the audience

or let this answer be because we have had some off camera moments,

Uhhuh, should we talk about those?

You should talk about absolutely.

Anything you are interested in sharing, talking about.

I have nothing to hide, and all I would say is as long as it

won't hurt somebody, somebody's feelings who isn't here to jump in.

A hundred percent.

Um, yep.

So, okay.

So Keith and I have been longtime friends, but are new collaborators.

That's true.

And there was one moment in particular during a, an episode that will not be

named, and I won't talk about who we were interviewing, but where, um, I

took something that Keith said very personally and I got very thrown and

I sort of shut down for a minute.

And during the actual episode.

During an actual episode.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And I think it's, it's edited around.

And I don't know that even had, we not, I don't think it took a lot

of editing even really necessarily.

But I definitely just sort of energetically all the

wind went outta my sails.

Hmm.

And we finished up the episode and then he and I were able to like, talk through it.

But it was a low for me in the sense that I wish that I would not have been quite

that throne and that I could have not let this sort of emotion of the moment

overtake me and instead stay present.

Oh yeah, watch this.

Well sing here.

Let's, let's thing here.

Yeah.

This

a, this way we can triangulate.

Yeah.

So that would be my low, but in a sense because we were able to talk through it

right afterwards and you apologized and we hugged it out and it was all fine.

I think in that way it was also a little bit of a high, because it was

the first moment of like true conflict between us that felt like, oh, we were

able to resolve that pretty quickly.

So that would be my low, was just the way that I reacted in that

moment.

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I will, I know that's a lot of am ambiguity and because we're

not going to name the episode or the person or the moment.

Yeah.

It's gonna be hard for, for listeners to maybe key in, I'm gonna give just

a little bit more color to the moment.

Ooh, yes.

I used a tone with Ben and shut down a line of inquiry that he was pursuing

in a sharper way than he appreciated.

I apologized for it.

One, because I'm a mature person who doesn't wanna hurt people's feelings

and doesn't want to put people in a situation where they feel that.

I've done that plenty of times in my life.

I will probably do it plenty of more times, and so I'm usually

quick to apologize when I recognize I've hurt somebody, man.

That moment was born out of a difference between Ben and I. Is that

the person that we were talking to?

I had a closer understanding of.

Yeah.

And I recognized that we were treading into territory that

wasn't comfortable for that person.

Right.

The person I thought had given several hints that they weren't, and I had

tried to give several hints to kind of guide us off the conversation.

Right.

Ben did a very strong recenter.

I was like, I really wanna know this though.

And I did a strong shutdown.

It was not my intention to shut him down as strongly as I did.

It was not my intention to make it feel that way.

And so I apologize.

I will also say the energetic shutdown that you experienced, we edited it

around it, but it didn't require much, and I don't think our guests even

recognized your energetic shutdown.

Yeah, I think that's true.

I don't think the guests even really knew.

At least I hope

not.

No, I don't think they did.

And so I love that that's a low for you because it's a low with a silver lining,

which is every significant relationship I've ever had in my life has had.

Moments where we are fine ourselves on opposite ends often because of

my tone of voice in a moment, but sometimes because of the thing the

other person did and every significant relationship I've ever had, we've been

able to find a way to recognize, even if we can't agree to recognize the

humanity in each other and to end up stronger because we talked about it

right.

And didn't let a thing hang in the air.

Yeah.

That's something that's really important to

me.

Um, oh, I'm glad to know that I'm a significant relationship

in your life, Keith.

Well, you're, look at that.

33 episodes are more and going, I don't even know where we are.

I can't keep track.

Dayton will tell us, Dayton, what episode do this?

Dan's like, yep.

That's a good low.

That's I thank you for sharing that.

Absolutely.

And I'm glad that we were able to work through it.

Was that your high?

Pretty much.

Pretty much anytime I kicked him in the knees.

Okay.

So it's my job to come up with a low right now.

And to be honest with you, as a person who is critical of almost all things

in life, I'm having a hard time like pinpointing a moment that I said

like, this is the low point for me of.

This show.

I think Sally Nails probably the number one thing that we talk about

in when it comes to guest booking.

And we've already talked about something that that matters a lot to me that I would

tie to kind of like a low, whereas like the show isn't fully reaching my hopes

and expectations yet, which is wanting the episodes to feel more like a conversation

and less of a pointed interview of a visiting filmmaker who could or couldn't

care that we are also filmmakers.

Right.

I think that's my low, I'm not gonna name names, but there

have been a couple guests.

Where the fact that Ben made a genre defining film that had traveled all

around the world and has had lots of experiences as a grad student, as a, as

a filmmaker, he went on fucking Jay Leno show that, you know, owns a production

company that shoots spots all around the country and has worked with major clients

and he's worked with major musicians.

And the work that I've done that, that gives me any ground to stand on.

There have been a few guests that seemingly either didn't know or certainly

didn't care and just treated us like we were any interested journalist.

And while we certainly are interested, I always make the

point that we're not journalists.

And my goal for the show is that it's filmmakers meeting to

talk shop just like we would.

In the filmmaker lounge at, at a small regional film festival with nothing

else to keep us busy for the weekend.

And so I guess maybe that's my low Whoa.

And it's, and it, it's an aspiration to continue to work, to, to find those

conversations and, and to, and to invite the audience further into the

conversation, which is part of the reason why, I mean, no, nothing diminishing

Sally by calling her the number one fan.

I, again, she called herself that.

But what I love about getting a chance to talk about the podcast with Sally

is there's Sally and there's another filmmaker who we need to book on the

show in the future, Madison Hamburg, who are working filmmakers who are out

there like fighting the same battles we're fighting all the time, who have

listened to a good amount of shows.

And we get to continue the conversation kind of off camera.

And that's what I love is like when Sally and I catch up, uh, she brings up

little things that happen on the show.

We talk about what happens sometimes off the show or behind the scenes.

And I'd love to have more of an interaction with others in our audience.

We just want to like connect.

That's that To me, this is

about Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's a good point.

I think listener engagement, uh, means so much, at least to me, like

to know that people are listening to the show and like it, and that, you

know, ultimately I like the idea of this being like the, the podcast that I

wish existed when I was first starting.

Yeah, I agree.

And so I would love to connect more with people who are

listening to it in that way.

So let's, in the spirit of trying to go a little faster.

Yeah.

Let's do the buffalo.

Is that the funny thing

that's funny or interesting or like, just kind of like a, a quirky tidbit.

Oh yeah.

My favorite was, well first of all I think Matt.

He Wolf is so great, and I didn't realize that he was the first one

where you did a video, but I just love that he was a little bit vain.

It just really cracked me up.

He was like, oh no, I'm not.

I'm not looking my best this morning.

And it just so fucking funny to me somehow.

Can I tell you a funny moment from that that I still cringe at when I hear,

which is so small, but we go across this bridge and it's this beautiful,

I, I guess we're on the East River.

I don't know.

But we crossed this bridge and we're looking out and there's these

beautiful like boats ripping around.

And I go, oh cool.

What is that?

A tugboat?

And he's like, those are fairies.

And I'm like, oh no.

Yeah, of course.

Duh.

Like of course they are like, what's not that?

I feel like that's

Well, I, I know I, that's one of those moments that like, I'm

just like, I'm such an idiot.

No.

Like of course those are fairies.

You're not like, you're like, fairies

isn't like by fairies.

But I appreciate Ben you sharing that.

'cause now I have something from my back pocket.

Anytime Ben seems like a dipshit to me.

I can just say, what is that?

It's Aug boat.

Like what am I living in a children?

I'm gonna jump in to Buffalo.

'cause I just use the word dipshit.

And something that surprised me in the pilot episode of the show Yeah.

Is kind of the tone that emerged.

Like, I hear my voice when I do these things.

I have to edit these things and I hear my voice and I'm like, God,

you're really trying to put on a show.

And I'm doing it now.

I can't even, I can't fucking stop myself when, when the mic is on.

Um, you have like a radio, an on air voice.

Oh, definitely.

Like, I

don't think, like I'm this animated when I'm on a walk.

That's funny because doing this with you, I don't necessarily agree with that.

I'll look at, I feel like, of course we're, we are very aware of the

cameras, but like I don't think that there's a huge difference between

you on camera and off camera.

Okay, well why, what do you think?

Good enough, enough?

Um,

I think there's a slight difference.

I think that you are a little more animated.

Well, anyway, my buffalo was just gonna be about the Thanks.

The buffalo.

The buffalo thing was just gonna be about, if we're talking about

buffaloes, let's talk about birds.

And like what came out on that pilot episode is a lot of talk about birds.

It gave Ben an easy, uh, poke into my ribs.

It's no tugboat.

But, uh, and the thing is like, I like talking about birds and I

also like what emerged from that.

We didn't, neither of us did any planning or any prep, but definitely the

biggest piece of feedback we heard on the pilot was people really liked it.

When we described the world we were seeing, yes, it was great and people

liked hearing, you know, the interaction with the atmosphere and that taking

the show on the road literally.

Had like an effect that I don't think either of us planned for.

It's one of the downsides to me about the video side is you don't feel as compelled

or drawn to explain things because you're looking, I'm literally looking at the

picture of it on my camera right now.

Yes, and I know you can probably see it if you're bothered to look.

That is interesting.

I didn't, I didn't think about that.

Should we walk on the street, by the way?

But that's, oh yeah.

Oh, anyway, that's my Buffalo is, yeah.

I love the tone that the pilot struck

True

and that it brought out us talking about the world and talking about birds

and it's made me pay more attention to flowers and street names and trees

and people's dogs and each other.

My buffalo is going to be very specific to the moment.

Right now.

We are living in what feels like this sort of new era where content

is now more important than movies.

Mm-hmm.

I've never thought of things as content.

I've always thought of them as a TV show or a movie or whatever.

Uh, when we came up with this podcast and started it, it was because I enjoyed going

on walks with my friend, and I wanted to celebrate this thing that I love.

Mm. And I didn't really think much beyond that other than like, I, I love podcasts.

I listen to them a lot.

Mm. I would, I'm curious about this new format, and I want to get into it.

And as our sort of, uh, industry hierarchy is imploding, I am very

excited that I have this new format, these new cameras that basically

we're playing in this new sandbox.

Good.

At least I, I am using it as an opportunity to not be afraid of

the future, but to embrace it and figure out how to tell stories.

Because honestly, the, the heart of the, my answer here

is that people need stories.

That's how I understand the world.

Right is through narrative.

Mm-hmm.

And I, from the early stage, I can remember, have been moved by

storytelling and I want to move others with the stories that I tell.

That's been my entire goal with all of my pursuits, my whole life.

And so I want to keep figuring out how to do that.

You wanna catch this guy Please?

And this is giving us a new way.

Sally wants us to pan right.

just wanna say hi to my neighbor.

Okay.

Go for it.

I'll shoot

you from distance.

Hi, I am Bowie.

How are you today?

Yay.

hi.

Oh, look at this beautiful brain you're doing

at Christmas.

Yeah.

Oh, thank you.

So nice.

Too cold.

Yeah.

Too cold.

Yeah.

That is my friend.

This is, uh, Keith.

Keith.

Hi.

This is nice.

Meet you.

Hello.

This is Bu.

Thank you.

Yes.

All right.

Bye.

So he, he is from Vietnam.

His wife is from Vietnam.

I made friends with his wife and his grown daughter and I was taking his,

he's 86, his wife's 70 and I was old.

He is

86. Yeah, he looks phenomenal For 86.

Uh, I

was taking her to doctor's appointments 'cause he can't drive anymore his eye.

He's vision impaired, but funnily enough he also works as a crossing guard.

So he is like full of interesting quirks.

Anyway, I spent a couple of weeks driving them back and forth to appointments.

It was totally enjoyable, sweet experience.

And finally I said, oh, I'm Bowie, what did you do before you moved to the states?

Like what was your job when you were in Vietnam?

And he said, I was a general in the Army.

Whoa.

Yeah.

So he's really had some life experience.

He's very fit and very tough and yeah.

I'm really curious actually to learn more about his story.

Well, that is a mitzvah right there.

The fact that we just had a chance to meet

on Buie.

Yeah, you're follow mitzvahs and you're taking them to

their doctor's appointments.

Good on you, Sally.

O'Grady, I mean,

well, whatever.

Here's mitzvah.

Can I give you a mitzvah?

If you were listening here in the thirties, episodes 29 through 35,

you will find more Ben alone episodes than, than we have had historically.

And the reason why is because Ben has very graciously allowed me some space to get

down to brass tacks here at the end of the year and get my four different development

projects in front of people, apply for grants, which I hadn't done in a while.

Submit to programs, schedule generals get to pitching, and Ben and Dayton

Thompson, you know are, yeah, I gotta give a shout out to Dayton.

They're silent and invisible spine, and that is a mitzvah.

And it has bore fruit, which is, I had a pitch last week, Ooh.

On my number five project, a project that wasn't even in the hopper a

few months ago, but it's something I developed during COVID five years ago.

And I put aside and then was reminded of, picked it back up, dusted it

off, cleaned it up a little, worked very closely with Govalle intern

Julie Rios to create a sizzle.

And with Megan Gilbride and, and Veronica to get it in front of some producers.

And we are being offered a development deal.

Awesome.

On the number five project.

Good for you.

I found out on Friday and I'm looking for legal paperwork this week.

Who knows what it'll be?

It could be, could be a terrible deal.

Could be something I scoff at.

But I don't think that'll be the case.

I think it'll be a real opportunity.

Do not tell me Sally O'Grady Heron.

She delivered on the heron.

Oh my God.

Then you zoom in.

Okay.

Tell us about this Heron.

I don't dunno much about it.

That it's a magnificent, um, uh, long limbed,

blue heron,

blue heron.

Do they have limbs?

I don't know.

It's just magnificent.

I, it's, it's almost a little, um, cosmic.

Whenever I see this creature, I feel very moved in a way that I can't articulate.

But I love that the heron came on the heels of your story about this cosmic wild

development.

It reminds me of another mitzvah, which was Rena offends butterflies.

Yes,

I was gonna bring that up.

This.

So that's our mitzvah right there.

Look at that.

Blue Heron.

Beautiful.

And a little turtle here on Sally's pond.

Turtle.

Sally's pond here.

It's on Sally's pond.

Um, alright, so we are, where are we?

Are we on our mitzvahs?

Yes.

Okay.

Sally, y'all do mitzvahs.

Well, I'm gonna do mine really quick, which is just you, like you,

you being our number one fan, you doing this episode with us at all?

Like this is, you are.

Well, this isn't a mitzvah that I'm doing for you.

You're doing a mitzvah for us.

So that's my cop out answer.

Sweet And Alex movie.

And I will just say too, that like, I hope this whole podcast is kind of a mitzvah

to like celebrate again this art form that we love and the people who make it.

And so that's my, that's my easy cheesy answer.

Mm-hmm.

Was, oh wow.

That Darren's about to

I got it.

I think my mitzvah was, um,

oh, it's about to go.

It's about to go.

Here it comes.

It's about to go, go, go, go, go, go.

Oh wow.

That magnificent.

Look at that like slow motion, like getting ready

changes mind.

It's gonna stay here.

That was just a yawn and a stretch.

Maybe

I did like that about the very, the pilot episode that I thought

it was part nature documentary, part part Nature Audio documentary,

part podcast about documentaries.

Oh, that's nice.

Well, and look at us now.

We're ending sitting next to this beautiful pond with all

the leaves changing colors.

I mean, this is the most autumnal spot in all of Austin to know.

I know.

Like Austin doesn't really, the trees don't really change colors.

What

It's like we're in Connecticut for a little tiny frame of this.

We're like a Norman Rockwell painting.

Oh,

right.

That's nice.

Sally's pun.

Sally's Pond on Sally's Pond.

I mean, that's another great episode title.

Honestly, maybe from the eighties.

My mom on Golden, our mom loved on

Golden Pond.

dunno if I've ever seen it.

Shane Collie.

It's, you know, I, we always make fun of me and I make fun of myself and

Megan and I, it's something we share in common as small child, a small children.

I've talked about this before, maybe not on the podcast.

I was obsessed with middle age on we and like characters going

through existential crisis.

Well, we

got a lot of that, like cocoon and close encounters.

Yeah.

Like when we were kids, those movies were big.

Yeah.

I love, I love those stories of like, of like couples disintegrating before your

eyes and trying to figure out what's next.

Kramer versus Kramer.

Reconciliable differences

ordinary people.

Totally.

And like Uncle and Pond is like the geriatric, you know, version of that.

It's like coming to grips with the end of life and a father and a daughter who

have never really quite gotten along.

Mm-hmm.

And uh, and the real life, you know, behind the scenes story with Henry Fonda

and Jane Fonda kind of roped into that.

I mean, that movie is.

Very powerful.

Is that what your pun is like, Sally?

Well let's, let's finish on you and your movie that is playing at a FS mm-hmm.

Soon.

Mm-hmm.

one of the things I'm so excited about, well see this is it, every time I get

the microphone, lemme tell you about the thing I'm real excited about, folks.

Uh, that's how I feel.

Like afterwards I'm like, Jesus Christ.

It's a, it's a mitzvah to have Sally on, like Ben said, for a lot of

reasons and certainly for her support and friendship of this podcast.

But another thing that makes it a mitzvah for me personally, is

that Sally's film is finally going to be available to the public.

Mm-hmm.

The trouble I see, which is the reason we met mm-hmm.

All those years ago, five, six years ago we met, we're not sure when.

Mm-hmm.

And you had been working on the film at that point, more than five or six years.

Mm-hmm.

So this is a journey mm-hmm.

From idea mm-hmm.

In Richmond, Virginia.

Mm-hmm.

To.

Lots and lots of ups and downs through the years to finally, not only

finishing a film but having something that you're excited and proud of.

That is going to be up on the big screen

mm-hmm.

Here in Austin on January 14th.

Mm-hmm.

And available digitally all around the globe.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, all around the country.

All

around this country.

Sally's film.

The trouble I see, uh, is a beautiful portrait of families in transition

in families like dealing with one of the most complicated subject matters,

uh, that any family could possibly deal with and a subject matter

that our society still struggles to kind of comprehend and understand.

And Sally does a definitely and beautifully, and there are some moments

in the cut that I saw many years ago that still stick very deeply with me.

Um, but the trouble I see is a film about two men who are experiencing incarceration

and their families experiencing life with a father who is not.

Able to be there in, in their, in their lives in the way that,

that, um, that they intended.

And so I'm thrilled that your film is finally getting a chance

to be seen, uh, by the audience.

I will be there on January 14th.

Uh, I can't wait to see it on the big screen.

Um, how do you feel and, and, and what did I get wrong?

I'm sure I got step right.

Yeah.

How was that?

How was that recap?

was pretty nice.

I did enjoy not having to do the, um, the little spiel, the synopsis.

'cause I am like, I'm really, really so happy that the film is

complete and out in the world.

I am so proud of it.

It has been one of the greatest privileges of my life.

And, and it is not hyperbole.

That is a fact.

To know these families, to experience, uh, getting to know them, working with

them, making this film, it, it does feel a bit like I was constipated for 10 years.

Like, it's a very, very challenging

yeah.

Experience.

And I,

the subject matter seems tough.

I'm sorry to interrupt

the subject matter.

Yeah.

Um.

But also I think, I would just like to say that I would also like to

normalize the time it takes to make a, an independent documentary feature.

It is very common to take 10 years even longer.

And I, I know, absolutely.

I know that, you know, we are career oriented and so you, we may have a goal,

I wanna make a film every two years.

It's just, it's just not the reality for a lot of independent filmmakers.

Right.

It's just really, really hard for all the reasons that probably

your viewers, listeners know.

But, you know, mostly it's, it's funding and then, you know, now we're learning,

once you get, you may get funding, you may complete the film, you may get

all, you know, lauded by your peers and yet it still has no place to go.

So it feels like an immense privilege that it's screening at a FS cinema and

that we actually have a distributor.

So I'm just really, really so happy.

And I just wanna emphasize, Ben said it's difficult subject matter.

It's interesting, you know, part of the thing I'm.

Proud of and happy about.

I suppose having the experience of making this film is, it doesn't feel

like difficult subject matter anymore.

I mean, it's heartbreaking.

Like some of the experiences of the participants is heartbreaking.

Yeah.

But at the same time, when I text them or call them or visit them,

I'm like, you are hilarious.

You are warm.

You know, you are just, you know, it's just, these are just lovely people

trying to love each other in the best way they can trying to survive.

Yeah.

Um, so it's just, um, it's just a sort of, I guess, a very

multifaceted story and experience.

And I'm really, I'm trying to get some of the participants to Austin for a q

and a, so that's gonna be really great.

Well.

Uh, I haven't seen the film.

I'm excited too.

And the thing that I know about you, um, even though you and I don't

know each other that well, is that you have a big, beautiful heart.

And every time that we're together, I feel warmer as a result of it.

And I see you like even the way you interacted with your neighbor back

there and then told us that, you know, you've been taking him to doctor's

appointments and helping out, and your feedback about how it's, we're all

responsible for the way the world looks and you're sort of embodying the idea of

like, be the change that you wanna see.

And I really admire that about you.

So thank you.

I'm excited to see your film and I hope other people go see your film and that,

um, that it's like a rewarding experience for you in the same way that it has been

for the families that are in the film.

Thank you.

That's

really sweet.

I hope it's been rewarding for them.

To be in the film.

I can't wait to see it.

You know, Sally is a shit talker, uh, in some of the best possible ways.

And it's one of the things that I think we share in common.

And I think one of the nice things about shit talkers is they

see through kind of bullshit.

Um, and when you're a documentary filmmaker and you go into a situation

like getting a chance to kind of suss out who people are and who they're not

quickly, and, and let your lens find like the authentic moments and not be,

you know, suckered in to inauthenticity is a, a value, there's a value to that.

And I think that, uh, again, from what I saw, uh, when, when you

were workshopping the film mm-hmm.

You have that, so you made that film as a co-director with Patrick.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Gregory is the co-director,

Patrick Gregory.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and who else was on your, your editorial crew?

I know this is, there's been a lot of ups and downs.

Have there been a lot of different hands in the editor?

Not really.

No.

And I think that's an interesting part of this story.

Um, leads back to my just calling out the challenges of independent filmmaking.

Yeah.

Um, is that, you know, we really were under-resourced, like this was made,

you know, on the smell of an oily rag, just the tiniest, tiniest budget.

Um, so we had a really awesome editor called Tim Chai, who's a known, um, yeah.

Texas filmmaker who now I think lives in California.

He was wonderful, but then he, he moved and, you know,

it's a very unwieldy project.

He was trying to do it part-time.

Um, and then we've raised some money and we got to work with Sandra Gudo

and she was just complete, I mean, she basically, she has a writing credit.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, she just took the film and really, um, uh, you know,

shaped it in a way that we really.

You know, we, we would've liked to have almost spent more time in

post, but we were able to, to do it quite quickly because of her skill.

I mean, she's so incredibly skilled at storytelling and emotional storytelling.

Sandra Gardado is, uh, an unheralded star behind the scenes of a lot of films.

As a matter of fact, she was, um, a significant editorial consultant

for me on my very first film.

Mm-hmm.

Eyes And Me.

She was recommended by Paul Steckler.

You know, Paul has worked with her many times through the years and he

talked about her in in his episode.

Sandra is absolutely somebody that we should reach out to and get.

You should on the podcast.

Well, is there anything that we haven't talked about?

I always wanna make sure that we like, do our guest justice.

Nice.

Saying that you like, feel like we,

I mean, this has been

covered it

so entertaining, honestly.

Um, and unpleasant.

I, um, I don't think I wanna talk about, I mean, I do have some other projects.

Yeah.

I wanna hear about various stages.

Well,

what's, what's going on with?

Can we talk about ma'am?

Sure.

Um, that project is, is one that.

We talked about a couple years ago.

I hadn't heard anything about it in the last year.

And then on my Instagram feed I saw on the nonfiction hot list.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you recently were talking to them about Yes.

So give us, give us a capsule on

Ma'am is a is a FE documentary that I've been developing for a couple years and I

applied for a few, um, grants and didn't get them and just sort of left it dormant.

And one of the.

Um, grants I applied for was not really a grant initiative, the non-fiction

hot list, which is a really amazing initiative, sort of born from this

idea that there's the, um, the Hollywood Blacklist, is it called?

Where the scripts that are so good but don't get made.

Right.

So this is like just the, to kind of break away the barrier to entry

to getting, um, our films made.

Oh, okay.

So they did this whole initiative where they chose, I don't know,

40 films to be on their hot list.

My film was not chosen, but what they did out of the kindness of their hearts was

this other initiative called Fresh Eyes.

And basically people who were, who weren't chosen were got the

opportunity to do a meeting.

And it was just, you know, it's, you just don't need much in this, um, industry

or this vocation, whatever you wanna call it, to get a bit of, um, momentum.

So I did a meeting with this awesome woman called ISIS Maud and another woman who

actually is Austin based called Anna Rao.

Oh yeah, I know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She is

so fucking cool.

So, so we just did a little meeting and, you know, talked about.

Some funding strategies and the project, and I am sorry I did not

explain what the project is about.

I have not practiced my log line for it.

Well, we don't wanna make you do anything you don't want to do.

So.

Well, it's, it's, it's a great idea though.

It's a story about, um, scammers that target women in caring professions.

So they, um, wow,

that is good.

They

call, they look online and they look on things like Psychology today and

they look for therapists who work with adolescents and they call impersonating

police officers and say, you, um, have a bond out for your arrest

because you failed to appear in court.

I can't tell you the details 'cause it was a minor.

So they, you know, it's all very credible.

It's essentially psychological and emotional manipulation condensed into

six hours with the goal of getting money.

Um, but.

No one really knows who the scammers are.

The women are really sort of interesting, not your typical sort of people

you might think could get scammed.

And it's sort of a, it's almost like a Trojan horse to talk

about patriarchy more broadly.

But

anyway,

so I'm excited about that.

But

yeah, that sounds really cool.

I watched that.

Would

you?

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm in.

I keep waiting for this hair to fly away, truly as the end.

But you know, I think the fact that we saw it is, is like bookend

enough and it is our mitzvah.

And you, my friends, are a true mitzvah.

I love knowing that, that you listen to the show and that

you get something out of it.

And, um, and I love that you are our last guest of the year, it seems.

Right.

Aw, that's really special.

Well, this has been epic.

Like how long have we,

we've gone a while.

It'll be edited down, but we'll also maybe let this one be a little

fat for, for, for those who care.

It's a chappy.

Yeah.

Um, you know, we all do our best here.

It's the end of the year.

You gotta give yourself a little space.

Coming up in 2026,

what would you like

to see, Sally?

What would I like to see?

Mm-hmm.

On doc walks or on in the world?

In the world of documentary filmmaking.

the world of documentary filmmaking.

Ooh.

Oh, I just touched my mic.

This is terrible.

Can I say That's a big question and it's 1115.

have a tendency to do that.

Um, all right, fine.

won't do that.

Drop it

up.

I like the question, but I feel like I don't even when have an answer.

Yeah, that's fine.

I didn't really know.

Uh, it

was a nice question then.

Thank very much.

But we should, I'm sorry to do it, but we should wrap because I have,

let's just do it at the bear at noon.

Let me too.

Oh, yeah.

I have a new call.

Also, Sally.

Mm-hmm.

Sally, thank you so much for being on our show.

Thank you guys.

Yes.

How did it feel to jump on the other side?

I was surprisingly comfortable.

Oh, I was a bit, um, unsure 'cause I'm not used to talking, I mean,

on, you know, being recorded.

Okay.

I liked it.

It's great.

I recommend it.

Anyone who wants to be on this podcast, Hey,

thank you.

You heard it here.

Um, okay, so that was Sally O'Grady.

That was the doc walks year interview.

That was 2025.

Next time on doc Walks.

No, no, no, don't go.

It's 2026.

I gotta get's saying 2026.

Sally's

gotta go See you, Sally.

Fine.

But

you, yeah.

You can't do an outro with me.

No,

no, no.

We're gonna do it over.

Oh shoot.

I just, alright, so Keith, that was Sally

O'Grady, that's our friend, Sally O'Grady.

That was the doc walk's first ever year in review.

We have recorded this podcast for a year.

Keith Maitland.

That's right.

We kind of, I don't, we recorded the pilot just.

At a year ago.

Yeah.

Today.

Is that right?

No, I have no idea what day it was, but it sounds nice.

I noticed during that episode that I was calling it a year in review and

you were calling it Year End Review.

Oh.

Who,

uh, is correct team?

Always.

I think a year in review is correct.

We've done this for a year.

We're reviewing that year.

I think we were reviewing the whole year.

It's the year in review.

And we were also, we did at the end of the year.

At the end of the year reviewing.

Yeah, it's the year in year end

review.

So we're both rights.

It was a December to remember is what I think.

Sally O'Grady.

Oh, you've been holding that one back.

The December to remember.

Is that from the, uh, Toyotathon?

Yeah.

The year

year

end.

December to remember.

Review

advertising does work, folks.

You've heard it here.

All right.

Well, thank you to Sally.

Uh, thank you to you, Keith.

Thank you to

you listeners and YouTube, Ben.

Oh, thank you.

Uh, this has been, uh, well, you know, it's a fun conversation.

Anytime we get a, a chance to hang out and it's double fun when you add in

Sally and her critique of our patriarchy.

And

that's true and we are gonna do our best to correct it in the new year.

We hope that you guys listen.

We hope that you reach out to us.

We would love to hear from you on any of our social channels.

And really, Keith, you said it really well just now off camera, we want these

to be conversations between working filmmakers, working storytellers, uh,

working in nonfiction, um, sometimes

even fiction,

and sometimes even fiction.

And we want you guys, the listeners to be part of that conversation, that's for

sure.

And so, 2026 is coming up.

We are taking a break for the holidays, but we're not gonna leave you hanging.

We're gonna drop into the mix two re-release two of our favorite episodes.

Uh, what's up next week?

Releasing on Christmas Day

next week, we have the rerelease of the Matt Wolf episode.

Matt Wolf, the director of peewee as himself, Matt Wolf as himself,

I think is what it's called as is what we call that one.

And I'm excited to re-release that one because we get to rerelease it.

Uncompressed.

So for those of you who watched the episode the first time it came out, we

were using a terrible compression rate.

Uh, the episode looks not great and we are gonna correct that.

Don't charge

Lucas on you with like VFX tweaks.

We've AIed, uh, we've replaced Keith That's right.

With, uh, Julia Louis Dreyfus.

That's about,

we took Sally's note to heart and Keith is now a female co-host.

I mean, Julie Louis Dreyfuss is like the American sitcom.

MVP of all time.

Oh yeah.

Type with Ted Danson as, uh.

Most important sip term actor of our

yes.

And I have a very embarrassing Julia Louis Dreyfus story that I won't tell

you now, but I, it doesn't make sense

to go here,

but I will, uh, tell you later.

That said, we hope you guys enjoy the re-release of Matt Wolf.

We hope you have a, a happy holiday, however you celebrate

it, and we will be back next week.

With more

doc walks.

Doc walks,

doc walks.

All right.

See then Doc Walks is produced, directed, edited by me, Keith

Balin, and him Ben Steinhower and co-producer Dayton Thompson.

We'll catch you on the trail.

Next time on Doc Walks one foot in front of the other.

Stop

talking.