EP033 – The Stone Peacock w/ David Modigliani

12.11.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 33

What is it with all the doc-filmmakers turning to podcasting?!? No, not us… we’re talkin’ about David Modigliani—a playwright turned poet turned documentary filmmaker turned podcaster (and Stanley Tucci voice director). This is a fun walk with an old friend at a park rumored to be populated by peacocks!

The director of 2008’s CRAWFORD (about a small town invaded by George W. Bush) and 2019’s RUNNING WITH BETO (a quixotic look at Beto O’Rouke’s life on the campaign trail), David is back in Austin for 36-hours to emcee the Home Slice Pizza Carnival and crash his old improv troupe, so naturally we dragged him through rocky trails and past $10 million homes to talk about his winding path from the Michener Center Grad program to doc-making, to his latest creation: PACK ONE BAG, an investigative podcast about his grandparents’ escape from fascist Italy that premiered at Tribeca in 2024.

David speaks from personal experience (and with his hands) about why improv is basically documentary directing, how hybridized narrative podcasting allowed him to write dialogue for Stanley Tucci as his great-grandfather—and what it means to metabolize democracy’s fragility in this troubled time. Plus: bubbling ponds of coy fish, finding a peacock carved in stone, and David voices his Italian grandparents’ (as he does in his podcast) with glee.

This episode is sponsored by our friends at The Long Time—a 5-acre event-space and playground for your imagination. It’s also the home field of The Texas Playboys (the sandlot baseball team that both Ben and David play for) and an ideal location for film productions!

For more information go to thelongtime.com and follow along on IG @thelongtimetexas.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Introduction and Setup at Mayfield Park 02:00 Shoutouts: Chris Floyd, Pizza Champion & Austin Sayers’ Steve Fromholz Doc 04:00 Finding Our Footing on Rocky Trails 07:00 The Santa Fe Grandparent Babysitting Setup 10:00 From Playwriting to Documentary: The Michener Center Years 13:00 Crawford Origins: Mini DV and Cindy Sheehan 17:00 Improv as Documentary Directing 21:00 The Yes-And of Verite Filmmaking 24:00 Houses Documentary Filmmakers Will Never Live In 26:00 The Grip’s Advice: Get Feedback While You Can 30:00 Branded Content as Film School 34:00 Wounded Warrior Project and MSNBC 37:00 Pack One Bag: Fleeing Fascist Italy 42:00 Why Audio? Creative Nonfiction and Invented Archival 46:00 Writing Dialogue for Stanley Tucci 50:00 Playwriting Meets Podcasting 54:00 The HBO Bus Billboard Moment 58:00 Audio’s Frictionless Distribution 01:03:00 What’s Next: Italian Version and Screen Adaptation 01:05:00 Lightning Round: Don’t Look Back, Linklater Dreams, Fatherhood 01:10:00 Metabolizing the Political Moment 01:12:00 David Does His Grandparents’ Voices

Surprise you guys.

We have a reshuffle where at the end of the last episode we said that we were

going to have Louie and Andy.

Ben walked with Scott Belu.

They had a long talk about all kinds of things, and at the end he said, we said

Louis Alvarez and Andy Coker visiting New York filmmakers here in Austin.

Yep.

And we're gonna talk to them.

Well, Ben is, but not today.

Correct.

Today, because the long time is our sponsor, we are moving up our episode

with David Modigliani, our mutual friend and fellow doc filmmaker.

He's a playwright, he's a poet.

He's on my baseball team, the Texas

Playboys.

He's a podcaster like us, but his podcast is very different than ours.

But don't worry, you're gonna find all about this in our walk.

We had a beautiful walk around Mayfield Park that's right here in Austin.

Lots of hand gestures, uh, lots of animated conversations.

This is a really fun one.

So.

Thank you to the long time.

We appreciate your sponsorship and we're excited to talk today with longtime

baseball player and longtime friend.

I see what you did there.

I like it.

Uhhuh, Uhhuh.

So we appreciate David, we appreciate you.

We appreciate the long time and we appreciate Louie and Andy.

Their episode will be coming up in a few weeks, but for now, let's

go talk with David Modigliani

here on Dock Walks.

On your left,

you're listening to Dock Walks with Ben and Keith.

So we are here at Mayfield Park with former Austinite Current Santa Faite.

Yeah, Santa Santa Fe.

Santa Santa Fe.

Yeah, that sounds better.

Yep.

David Modigliani.

What are you doing back in Austin?

Well, I lived here for 20 years and we recently moved to Santa Fe

to be close to my wife's parents and we had our first bambino and

I am back this weekend because.

The home sliced pizza is bringing back its Carnival of Pizza, which

involves competitions of like box folding and dough throwing and then

ends in the pizza eating competition.

And I had long MCed that and I would often show up in character as my buddy

Nanos long lost Italian cousin and they asked me to come back and so,

wait, what's this character's name?

David Ani.

I love it.

You know that's a reach that sounds strikingly similar to some

characters from your podcast.

Pack one bag.

Yes.

Oh, that's true.

Well, we'll get there.

We'll get there.

We'll get

there.

Yeah.

Before we get any further, I just wanna send a quick shout out to Longtime

Pizza Eating Champion Chris Floyd.

Hey, he's a personal hero of mine watching him scarf down pizza

after pizza year after year.

He won the home slice five times, I think you said?

Yeah, I

think he's a five time champion.

Five

time champion.

That someone should make a movie.

But here we are.

We're in Mayfield Park.

This is a little different for us 'cause this is a rocky path.

I was gonna say, I think Ben's got a nice shot of it.

Yeah.

I need to talk about where we are.

We normally walk on paved surfaces, so the fact that we are hiking today is a first.

It's a duck.

Duck.

First dock hikes.

Yeah.

This doesn't really roll off the tongue the way

Doc hikes.

While we're throwing some shout outs, I just wanna go ahead and acknowledge

the t-shirt I'm wearing in support of first time filmmaker Austin Sayer.

Upcoming documentary about Steve from Holtz.

Okay.

Austin is a frequent doc walks listener.

He, like many people right now, is waiting to hear when his film will

be premiering at what festival.

I threw this shirt on this morning.

It was a Kickstarter perk.

Hi.

I don't normally take the perks when I support films 'cause I know

that's just a pain for the filmmaker.

But this is a pretty good looking shirt.

Yeah, you're you're, it's a good looking shirt.

You're an

ambassador, you know, and you're spreading the word.

I am wondering if we need to, if we need to reconsider this here,

we're deep in a wild de Austin.

There's no way we're gonna be able to walk three across Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And get our normal Yeah.

Shots.

Okay.

Doing this.

So let's apologies.

Let's give it a little, let's get, let's you know.

No, here, let's, uh, let's have you guys come on through, sorry.

Get some b

roll of this, of this path then while we're walking, what's the liability,

uh, waiver situation on Doc Fox?

I'm sure you guys have a robust policy.

How did Keith blow his knee out?

Yeah, no.

Yeah.

This is like a, this is a real kind of

apropos.

This is like Santa Fe.

This is

very Santa Fe.

Yes, it's true.

We live right near some trails and I'm, yeah, I take the guy in the backpack.

Just any guy or specific guy.

Oh no.

J You my little guy.

Oh, my little boy.

Marcello.

Yes.

He's 16 months.

Should we look at this map?

Should we look at Oh, a map?

Look at this guy.

Just the,

I think so.

Help us.

We are where, so we are at Mayfield Park.

We are back off the beaten path and onto the unbeaten path.

No, the, no.

What's the opposite of the, the opposite.

We were on the unbeaten path, correct.

And now we are on just the gravel path.

We were on the road less traveled, but now good fences make good neighbors.

Uh, empty wagons make the most noise.

I mean, is that a Robert Frost comb?

I was just

trying to keep it frost too past divergent of wood.

There you go.

And we took the modigliani.

Okay.

Ooh, I like that.

I wasn't expecting that.

This is beautiful.

Very pretty.

Oh my goodness.

Look at where we are here,

where we've ended up.

I think we made the right decision, guys.

Yeah.

Wouldn't just do slow circles around the this pond.

Just remember not to harass these fish and we'll be fine.

That could be a great episode.

Title.

Don't Harass the Fish with David Modigliani.

Yeah,

but now Okay.

And we'll keep you on.

We'll keep, we'll keep, I like the one about the Modig speaks s It often does.

Okay, so David, yes.

You and I have known each other since graduate school.

Yes.

You were in the Mitchner program.

Yes, I was in the RTF program.

Yes.

And I knew you as a playwright.

Yes.

And you came over and I remember you took a film class, I think it was an

editing class, if you remember, right?

Yes.

And when we met, you were telling me that you were really interested

in making a documentary that eventually became Crawford.

Yes, I think, or actually, no.

You know what, before that I was about the community center on

the community center documentary.

Yep.

Yeah.

I think, did I edit that?

I think you did a little.

little.

He's going, he's reaching deep Uhhuh.

Check the INDB folks.

I think you did a little polish like an online, I think I had no idea how to do

an, we had shot on like mini DV uhhuh and we had to online the whole thing.

And I remember you switching a shot.

I think you weren't, you spotted an opportunity to add value in like the, a

brief time that you had doing the online.

And so like, what if we put this here?

And I was like, oh, that's much better.

And so Yes.

Yes.

I took yet, this was 2004, so it's, yeah, I moved here in oh four.

I wanna say that was 2005 than fine.

Yes.

Okay.

And I was doing playwriting and poetry at the Mitchell Center for writers like

Keith Moore didn't go to film school.

More of a writing background.

Well, I'm excited to talk about that because I don't have a lot of like pangs

of regret of not going to film school.

Yeah.

But the opportunity to be in a writing program.

Uh, I was in an undergrad writing program here at UT in the English

department, which is a creative writing short story workshop for, for three

semesters, and it was honestly changed the way that I approach storytelling.

What, for our viewers, uh, what is the Missioner program?

The mission program is a part of UT Austin.

It's an MFA writing program.

They take, I think 12 writers a year across four primary focuses, playwriting,

poetry, screenwriting, and fiction.

Mm-hmm.

And what makes it different from a lot of other writing programs

in the country is that instead of two years, it's three years.

Because they ask you to not just do a thesis in your primary genre

that you're accepted for, but also to then choose a secondary genre

and also do a thesis in that.

That's super cool.

Um, so

that's where the filmmaking, that's

what opened the door for me because I started, I came as a playwright.

My secondary genre was poetry to start, but around after about

the first year that I was there.

We went out to the town of Crawford, Texas where George W. Bush had,

that had sort of called at his home, this 700 person, one stoplight town.

And I thought I was gonna write a play about it and I was interested in

the sort of like, oh, we'll interview these people and we, we will use

parts of their, those interviews.

And then I even started thinking maybe it'll be multimedia.

So I convinced a friend to come out and shoot some stuff.

And the whole time it was just so clear I was this kid from Boston and

I had these like very stereotypical, preconceived notions of what

small town Texas might be like.

And these folks were just incredible, three-dimensional.

Colorful storytellers.

Right.

And it was so obvious that like fictionalizing or abstracting from them

in any way would be a total disservice.

And it was like, oh, this really, this wants to be a film.

Right?

So then it was like, well, how do I do that?

So I switched my secondary genre from poetry to screenwriting so that I could

take an editing class with Ann Lewis and Paul Eckler's, like doc production class.

And they let me come in with some of the film students.

So I only took two film classes, but those two classes, learning how to edit then

allowed me to edit that footage together.

Right.

Cut together a little teaser.

And then we were kind of off and running on a what eventually

became my first feature doc,

which is, which is the time that we met.

Yeah.

Right when Crawford came out.

Yeah.

eight.

I wanna say

you had played South By Okay.

And Eyes of Me was the very next year.

Okay.

And I saw you as like, oh, this guy had just done it.

You were having a great time at the festival.

I was like stressed out and trying to figure it out.

First ever festival appearance with a feature.

And I remember just seeing you like everywhere I look.

You were, you were having a great time.

It was like you were riding that kind of Crawford wave.

It was a great feeling.

I, I thought that film like made such a great statement about like, what?

Thank you.

Thank you for the applause for Crawford.

Uh, thank you so much.

Glad you guys have seen it.

It's almost 20 years old now, so I'm glad it's still out there.

It,

it is such like an interesting way to say, make a comment on a political moment with

a film that looks at a community that was like so deeply impacted by that political

moment in a really non-traditional way.

But when you think about it, like every president and every senator and

every governor has this backstory.

Yes.

This like other place, this second home.

You know, like, I always love going out to the l bj ranch

Yep.

The origin story.

Right.

And w you know, kind of glommed onto this like all hat and no cattle kind of

like story in the small town of Crawford.

Yes.

Where very real Texans lived.

Yes.

What did you learn from making that film?

I learned a lot.

I learned in part, I learned how to make a film.

It was really was in a way like the film school for me, just learning by doing.

I was interested in ways to capture a political moment through intimate

personal stories and that like through the lens of these folks in these

characters, if you cared about them and what was going on in their lives.

Then their view of the Bush era as his neighbor might illuminate.

Um, some of the like bigger narratives and bigger moments such as the war in Iraq and

then Cindy Sheehan showed up and Right.

I heard you recently talking about not knowing the third act, you know,

and that was, I think the case in part for us was like, that something

interesting is happening here.

Like, this guy couldn't run for president from the governor's mansion, bought

a home six months before he announced his candidacy, won the presidency,

turned it into the Western White House.

What do these people think about this place and the internal dynamics of that?

Town as they became thrust onto the world stage when Cindy Sheehan, we had already

been shooting for a year, and this woman who had lost her son in Iraq came to

basically want to talk to W and her idea was like, I'm just gonna show up at his

ranch at the fence and hope he comes to explain to me why did my son die in Iraq?

Right.

And then people started joining her and then the counter protestors came.

And in August of oh five, there was one day there were 20,000

people in this 700 person town.

Oh wow.

And they had become like ground zero for this whole national conversation.

And all of our characters that we'd been following there they were.

And they were in the midst of it.

So, and it was also a lesson I think in like.

Pointing your nose about something you're curious about.

There's something here, let's start, you know, digging into it,

developing relationships, filming, and then that gave us a real sort of

third act, you know, element that we could not have predicted going in.

I wanna A stroll.

Yeah, I wanna walk, walk across this little, um, rock bridge here.

Okay.

Uh, but I wanna say it's almost, it's not exactly a, if

you build it, they will come.

'cause you didn't really know what it was.

Yeah.

But it was like, if you show up, you will

find Yeah.

Story.

Yeah.

And there a lot of those characters lives were impacted during that, that period.

And transformed in ways that we could not have necessarily predicted.

I think we shot for about two and a half years and then made the, the film.

And

so how was that similar or was it similar at all to playwriting for you?

It's a good question.

Yeah.

I think the editing process was a big, was wa is always, feels to me similar

to writing in some way that you've got x numbers of hours of footage.

You could tell this story, you could tell 20 different stories, you know,

out of what you got on your hard drives.

And the question is, what is exactly the story you're telling?

How is the footage that you have gonna support that and constructing and building

the world and building that narrative.

This sort of dramaturgical exercise felt similar to, to playwriting

when you're talking about that.

Like editing as a playwright, editing as a, as a screenwriter, editing as a poet.

Yeah.

Like the process is subtractive.

Right.

But when you're making verite doc, you start with an additive process, right?

Where you're just collecting, you're, you're spotting people,

you're spotting characters, you're, you're shooting moments.

How did your experience up till.

Crawford informed that part.

Identifying character, identifying potential story.

Part of it.

I think when I was in college, I actually, I was in an improv comedy group.

Ooh.

And I hadn't thought about this so much until recently, but I do think

that in some ways, directing a doc is an exercise in improv That's right.

In which only one side of it, depending on your filmmaking style, but for me, for

largely one side of it's being filmed.

Right.

Yeah.

That's a great way to say it.

'cause the yes and yeah is so foundational to improv.

Exactly.

Is is exactly the attitude you need to take is a document.

Exactly.

I think documentary filmmaking is a medium, entirely built around trust.

Winning over the, the trust of your subject such that they can ideally, you

know, be fully themselves, open themselves up to, to their moments being captured on

camera, such that you're passing those, that feeling of trust onto an audience

who then can experience it as well.

And I feel like improv was, was, is largely in that way of, of

co-creating, co-constructing.

So I think like my ability to, and the sort of, I would

call it maybe like spontaneous dramaturgy, right, of improv right.

Where you're like figuring out what the scene is as it's happening.

Yeah.

Is also similar to when something's unfolding in doc production and you're

like, well we think it's kind of gonna fill this, but oh, but this actually

seems to be about this other thing.

And, and so sort of recognizing.

What the conflict or the heart or the joke or the joy of a scene is

as it's unfolding and then trying to like work to further heighten that.

Bring it out.

Capture it.

Yeah.

I feel like some of the improv instincts fed into that.

I love that.

What was the name of your improv trip?

It was the Immediate Gratification Players, and then when I first

came to Austin Istic had a group called the Knuckleball now.

Oh, baseball rounds.

And it was like the, you know, the knuckle ball could go any,

any, any moment at any time.

Yeah.

And you trying to be presence and all that.

And that improv group is still around and has a show tonight.

that right?

Really?

Yes.

Are you jumping in?

Are you I

try to go straight from home Slice and, uh, haven't done

improv in a very long time, but they were kind to invite me back.

What a big what

a big weekend.

It's a

lot in 36 hours.

Wow.

You know, dock walks, home slice.

I mean, I just call quits

after dock walks, but.

We're peaking early.

That's right.

That's the episode.

Uh, no, that's, that's not fair.

Peaking early with David gl peacocking early.

Oh.

Now that, well, we gotta see if we find it.

Yeah, that's right.

This, this park is famous for its peacocks.

We have yet to encounter any, any pea fouls hunting.

So wrapping up the mitchner Oh yeah.

Of things.

Yes.

Like I said, I'm jealous when I think about the idea

of spending three years Yes.

Focus on writing.

What's, let me

assure you that at age 24, I basically was no more able to truly get the most

out of it than you were at age 21.

Gotcha.

Um, and, and I do think about, you know, gosh, what a privilege to be

able to have all that time to write.

When I spent so much of it sort of fretting about like

how to, how to use the time.

Wow.

We gotta get a, we gotta, yeah.

Get a shot of how the other half

lives over here.

I was more looking at this tree.

Okay.

Look at this wild tree growing down over the water.

That is just a

incredible live oak inaction.

Man that is gorgeous.

Should go sit out on a limb there.

So out on a limb with David moi

out on a limb with David Mouli.

Uh, we got a beautiful live oak across the street from, I'm

guessing an $8.5 million home.

I dunno, maybe 6.5.

I would maybe go a little higher.

Oh, okay.

I bet that's maybe in the tens.

Ben's got an offer to make.

That's a beautiful Cyprus.

Uh, belied up to it really is the pool there.

Yep.

And a nice little offshoot of Lake Austin, which is right out here.

Houses, documentary filmmakers will never live in That's dock walks

to be a whole, a whole, it really

could be the home store.

Yes.

You know, we

basically all inadvertently took a vow of poverty, I think.

Well, you know, it's funny about vows that we've taken and

back to this writing program.

Yeah.

Summer to my sophomore and junior year I was interning for the Muppets up in

New York and I had just gotten into.

This creative short story writing program in the, in the English department.

Cool.

And I was a double major RTF, but getting into this writing program,

I felt like I had a choice to make.

If I stayed RTF and I did this writing program, college

is gonna take me five years.

And I, especially that summer in New York, told me I was ready to be

out and so I had to decide, do this writing program or stick with RTF

production, which would require spending some money I didn't have access to.

Keep me in a program that I had always wanted to be in, but hadn't really

delivered for me yet in the two years I'd been doing it and a grip on the

Muppet program that I was working on gave me this little piece of advice.

He said, if you have the opportunity to write, hmm.

And somebody is, has to read your writing and has to give you feedback.

That is the most valuable thing you could get at this point in your life.

Because as soon as you are out of this program, nobody will

want to read your writing.

And if they are willing to read your writing, they certainly

won't give you honest feedback.

Oh, that's good.

Yeah.

And so if you have this chance to get honest feedback, you're being

prompted to write and somebody will respond to it, you need to take that.

And it's, I think it's one of the most impactful piece of advice I ever got,

but I didn't follow it to its next level.

Yeah.

Which is where you are.

And I appreciate you saying like you didn't feel like you were as mature

enough, but do you agree with that advice?

Yes, I do think that, I do think getting and being in a cohort of just sort

of like, like-minded folks that are working and, and reading each other's

work and being forced to not only read other people's work but provide

constructive feedback, I think is always useful of like, how do I take

this story on its own terms and give feedback or notes that are constructive,

not like how would I rewrite this, but what's the style that this person's.

Going for.

And so the, I think both receiving and giving, having to read and

give feedback was constructive.

Um, around story, around style, around perspective, all those things.

Yeah.

So then, like, I can only imagine like the conversations sort of happening

in your mind, and maybe even with your parents or you're close friends,

like you're, you're a playwright who goes into poetry, who then goes into

documentary and film making, who does, who

does baseball themed improv on the side.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, are your parents, like, are you actively trying not to get a job?

Is that exactly, are you just making yourself like

the most unemployable person?

Yeah.

Like, are, were you sort of thinking at all around any of that?

Like how, what is this gonna add up to?

Or were you more sort of in this great position where you were like, I know this,

these are all gonna come together at some

Yeah.

Point.

It's a good question.

I think in part the, the.

Security that I had the program, the mission center program.

And I knew I had those couple of years where I had to do these writing things.

But then once we started shooting the Crawford thing and I kind of

became most passionate about that.

At least I knew I had like this window of time that I could

try to, to knock that out.

And honestly, I think after editing together the first sort of sizzle

reel from the Crawford footage, I saw that it was getting traction

and response and that I was actually able to raise money to hire folks.

'cause I had not, I didn't know how to shoot and I was able to bring some

crews out there and keep doing stuff.

So I was getting at least some degree of like market feedback from sort of

politicos in Austin and, and film folks like, Hey, this is an interesting subject.

This is a film we'd like to see.

And I think that gave me whether true or not, like the, the sense of like,

okay, like there could be success in this, there could be a living in this.

We made the film, it got into South by.

Um, we've get, you know, screened it at the Paramount three times,

like going from shooting on mini DV and having only ever seen the

thing in our little editing suite.

And then walking in for the detect check the day of the premiere and seeing

it on the screen at the Paramount.

I'll never forget that moment.

Yeah.

So it was initial feedback and we sold that film to Hulu just as the time,

at the time that it was launching.

Mm-hmm.

Which was really interesting around like, digital distribution taking off.

So just in that first year, I think I was fortunate to get the sense of like, I,

I might be on, it's not the right path, like a path, sort of like this, you know,

like, like, uh, this kind of looking path.

Like, you know, let's get back to this kind

of looking path.

Okay.

So you made Crawford Yes.

On the heels of all these decisions between poetry, improv, playwriting,

and then you were out, uh, you, you know, you had to confront reality

and you were a documentary filmmaker.

Yes.

What did that mean to you and what were your steps after, you know.

Well, part part, um, of, of how to sort of continue getting reps and making work

was kind of identifying, this was like 2009, 2010 I guess you would call it.

Cause marketing sort of like companies recognizing that, telling stories about

the positive work that they were doing or their partnerships with nonprofits

would be valuable to their brands.

And I started making work for hire basically short form

docs, brand supported content.

Right.

And in the very early days of that and had a couple partners had an agency.

And the benefit of that was, you know, in addition to income was because

I really had only made one film project, which was this feature doc.

The opportunity just to get reps of taking the shorter three minute, five

minute, you know, pieces and going soup to nuts on them a bunch of times was

really useful to me in terms of learning.

Making stuff, finishing stuff.

I also learned a lot through the process of working with companies or nonprofits

where you've got folks that may not be the most creative minded and you're

trying to teach them an objective process for an inherently subjective endeavor.

And so just putting together processes like, okay, you're gonna get feedback

at the rough cut, fine cut, and final cut stage, and you're gonna provide

that feedback in writing, and then we're gonna discuss it together and

then we're gonna, that seems horrible.

Shepherding groups of like stakeholders, right?

Right.

Lack of a right, nicer work.

It kind of all culminated.

The last big project was for Wounded Warrior Project, which

is a veteran's nonprofit.

We did a 10 part series and they were in for that, for their 10th

anniversary, 10 short films each about a different young veteran

coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan, and we cut the trailer together and

then pitched it to M-S-N-B-C, who.

We will make a TV show out of this if you make 12 instead of 10.

Wow.

So we went back to Wounded Warrior Project, they said yes.

And once a month they would do like, show the film and then have a discussion

in the second half of the hour.

That was led by a congressman who was like a former, who was a veteran.

I think at the time.

Again, the politics and documentary are sort of Yeah.

Coming together for you here.

Yeah.

And that was the sweetest spot where Wounded Warrior Project really took

our lead that, hey, the least amount of branding that is in this as possible.

Right.

The more likely it will actually reach a mainstream, uh, audience or

be appealing to like a distributor.

Right.

Um, that will just see this as like quality content that

they didn't have to pay for.

And then since then I've been fortunate to be working independently

on, on films and, and projects, but I do think that period was helpful

just of like, as I say, just, just.

Getting reps Absolutely.

Learning stuff.

Yeah.

And so building confidence is, uh, like almost impossible to do without

an outside guide of some kind.

Right.

Like somebody setting boundaries and somebody kind of creating, like either

laying a path or telling you like what not to include, where to step out of it.

And so then your most recent project that I'm aware of is Pack one Bag.

Yeah.

Which is a, which is a film podcast.

Yes.

I'm so curious to talk to you about that because you are our

first guest who has made Yes.

A podcast.

Yeah.

We're all

fellow podcasters.

Thanks for joining me in the podcast space.

Well, it's very, I I,

we keep waiting for Stanley Tucci to show up, but it

hasn't happened yet.

I, I know from listening to it that it's very different than what we're doing.

But tell our audience about, uh, PAC One back.

My grandfather happens to have won the Nobel Prize in economics.

I was always a lot more whose grandfather has no big deal.

Come on, move a little on

Woo.

A lot.

I was always a lot more fascinated by the love story that made it possible.

He was this 19-year-old Jewish kid, uh, growing up in Rome when Mussolini

passed the racial laws against Jews.

And he sort of was on the fence, didn't know what to do.

His own mother was a fascist and thought everything would be fine.

Wow.

And he was so lucky to have fallen in love with this outspoken girl from

Bologna who saw things a lot more clearly and whose parents had been putting

together a plan to flee the country.

And I knew that they had ultimately escaped Italy through Paris and

onto the last boat out of mainland Europe before the war broke out.

And I'd always been interested in that story.

And, and I'd always thought that one day I'm gonna like sit my

grandparents down and like film them telling this whole story.

'cause they were great characters and they reminded me of like the couples

and when Harry met Sally that are being interviewed by their love story.

Right.

And I was like, one day I am gonna do this.

And I, I procrastinated in and I put it off and they died.

And I never had those tapes that I sort of told myself I was gonna gonna make,

but when they died, they left behind this kind of trove for the grandchildren,

which was their love letters.

From that period, I had had them, and they'd sort of been a little

bit of a source of guilt and sorrow that I hadn't like done more.

But during CVID some people were making banana bread.

We were all doing, getting around to that thing that you like

weren't, and I was like, okay.

And, and we, I took out these love letters and started diving in.

And I expected this sort of faded, like black and white

mementos of a time gone by.

And instead, like their discussion of rising fascism, what do we do?

All felt like very fresh.

Right?

This was even in 2020 to me, and I thought, man, like maybe their story

has some answers for how I, I'm thinking about my own current moment.

Yeah.

And so from there I went back to my dad's house and started asking him

questions and he was like, well, let's go down in the basement.

We have these 19 boxes of, of their documents, some of

which he had never opened.

Started open those up and then we're finding letters from Mussolini

to my grandmother's father.

And I started like, man, this story is much bigger than I thought.

Right?

And so we went back to Italy, dove into the archives, reconnected with family

there, and ultimately told this story about essentially the love story of

my grandparents fleeing fascist Italy and the story of the brother that he

left behind during the Nazi occupation.

Now why audio though?

Is it?

Yeah, yeah.

It's your question like, okay.

But that could, and to me it was basically like we didn't have the assets.

My grandparents were no longer with us.

We had photos, we had stuff, and, and you could have made a doc that

would be, let's say, Ken Burnsy in nature, which no disrespect, but

just is not as much my cup of tea.

And I was a huge consumer.

I listened to audio all the time, listen to podcasts, investigative

audio, love, sound design.

Always loved the sound design part of even doc filmmaking, which I think is hugely

underrated, which we can talk about.

And I thought, man, maybe telling this through audio, you could actually have

a listener feel more immersed and make this experience they went through feel

more immediate than like a kind of black and white photo doc that could

make it feel like at a safe remove.

And so leaned into the, the audio component of that.

And even like some of the, it's funny, it's, you're we're connecting dots myself

here on doc walks, but the little bit of the improv and performance aspect of it.

Yeah.

Right.

Because I had made that, you know, we made this film running with Beto about

Beto O'Rourke's campaign for Senate.

We made these that I was never in on camera involved, you know, at all.

Like we said before, two person scene, but you're only filming one side of it.

But in this case, for audio, as you guys know, you're much more involved and to

be the host of a personal narrative, you know, investigative podcast, it's much

more personal and much more involved.

And so there is a performative element of it.

Well, and literally you perform because you are playing the character of Yes.

My grandparents.

Yeah.

Of your grandparents.

Yeah, i I Your grandmother and your grandfather.

I do my grandparents' voices.

Yeah.

Because I always remembered.

How they spoke and sounded to me.

And I wound up working with a production company of more audio experts.

'cause this was my first rodeo, right?

And I did the, I was like, no.

So it was like, my grandfather, you know, would say, you know, Franco, stop it.

It's not bothering he, what's the problem?

It's not.

And I would like, I was like, you know, they sounded like that.

And then they're like, well, you should do that.

And I was like, no, no, no, no.

Like we should get actors.

We'll figure out how to do that.

And he kept coming back and they were really.

They in general push me to like, you gotta be more personal.

You are the vehicle, especially in audio of like how the audience is

gonna relate to the story and also your recollection of your grandparents.

Sure.

It's like imperfect, but it feels authentic.

Like it feels like we feel your real love for your grandparents.

Yeah.

And therefore it's better than us doing it with actors or whatever.

Well, so they, they just really nudged me off the cliff.

And it is a personal journey film.

'cause you set it up as this is me.

Yes.

This is why I am doing this.

Yes.

Come along with me.

Yes.

And then you're the surrogate.

You're, you're totally, you're the one who leads us through this story, even

though it becomes about your grandparents.

Yes.

And so that we sort of leaned into the creative storytelling aspect of it.

And so in addition to normal interview tape of like my grandfather's niece

and nephew that were little children during the war in Rome, and we wound

up interviewing the prime Minister of Italy who had been a former student of

my grandfather's and all real interviews.

We also have what we basically called invented archival.

And that was me doing my grandparents.

And then ultimately my grandmother's father was known as the king of

the books and was this guy that had this big book distribution business.

And he was the one that really got them outta dodge and had both the

resources and the information to kind of in a plan to get out of Italy.

And I had always thought that he was sort of like I, when I heard about him, I

pictured him as Stanley Tucci in my mind.

really?

And, and so.

Then I had been fortunate to be in touch with Tucci on an earlier thing,

and we were leaning into this and it was like, well, what if we just inve,

we had invented archival footage with, with Tucci as my great-grandfather.

Um, and so we have these, so we interview him as my great-grandfather

and we show all that to the listener.

We're not like trying to pull it off as though it's

something other than what it is.

Right.

It's all an open hand trust and building the trust and teaching

the rules of the thing as we go.

But, so it ultimately blends together normal doc conventions, story convention

stuff with a little bit more of this like imagined invented stuff.

Right?

I mean, what I wanna know is like more play.

How much fiction is in this nonfiction and do you consider it a straight documentary

or do you consider it a hybrid?

Or, or

That's a great question.

We were trying as close as possible to tell the true story as best.

As I came to understand it.

Sure.

And so with my grandparents, you know, like the dialogue that's from

my grandparents and, and as though I'm interviewing them, that's all based on,

my grandmother wrote a sort of memoir.

My grandfather had an autobiography, we had all these love letters.

So it's all informed by their facts and, and the memories that they had shared.

And same like with my great grandfather, based on his letters,

what we know about his life.

So I think the term at one point was like new Historicism.

I mean, it's like the specific turns of phrase and conversation that is invented.

Right.

The underlying like facts and perspectives are all true, and

the story fundamentally is true.

So I would call it using some creative storytelling.

I would call it creative nonfiction.

Creative nonfiction.

Okay.

Well that's, I mean, there's an idiom in place for that, right?

There's a language and a grammar in creative nonfiction, especially

with historical stories.

In books.

Yes,

but filmed, should we gonna tuck into a corner?

Maybe that's in film documentary, they like to use the word hybrid,

but I always find that word to be a little off-putting because they

never really know what it means.

Yeah, I agree.

And it's hard to see like the edges of what's real and what's not

unless it's made, you know, clear.

Yes.

I think in best cases it is.

But you're working in a, in like a new old medium, right?

Because it's like in the sense you're making a podcast, but you're also

kind of making like a radio drama.

Yes.

Right?

yes,

but we grew up, we're about the same age, all three of us.

Like we didn't grow up in the days of radio drama.

So as much as we could say it's like a radio drama, we don't

really have that experience either.

Right.

So was that freeing for you to work in a format that like the rules

were not in place?

I really enjoyed working in audio and.

The, there was both the freedom of the creative nonfiction element

of like, boy, I really wish my grandfather like had said it this way.

And it's like, oh, well I'm doing his voice.

I can just fucking say it that way.

We have all spent so much time cutting together verta scenes doc

sequences, and you're thinking, do I have the visuals that can match the

timing that I would like this to do?

And the fact that you don't have to worry about anyone's lip flap, you don't have

to worry about anyone's faces and you can make these moments and timing and

music and sound design all have the, the Mario netting of, of timing and

feeling is much more wide open to you.

And that was super exciting that you could really have the moments happen

in, in the sequence and in the timing and the way that you want unconstrained

by the visuals that might be there.

And the more that that you did that I really like think, I mean

know it's creative nonfiction, it's also I think investigative

podcasts, audio in any way is a.

Is a guided meditation of sorts.

Like the folks that are listening to this and not watching, right?

Wonderful camera work are perhaps hearing the sound of the breeze, the

people in the background, and they're building a world in their mind.

And it, and that experience, I think is a lot more like reading a

book where you're constructing via the instructions, basically like

the world in your brain, right.

That you're picturing, imagining.

And sound design of course just heightens that.

Yeah.

Enormously.

And so leaning into all that of just thinking like, how can we best help

the listener build this world as realistically, intensively, emotionally

like as possible through the sound design was a super fun thing where

the visual is totally absent, right?

And it's all, but process

wise, you're still going, like, I remember the scene where

you and Willa fly to Italy.

Yeah.

And then you go and you meet the Prime Minister.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like you were.

Physically going to these places Yes.

And interviewing these people much like you would Yes.

Making a documentary.

Totally.

The only difference being that you don't have a camera, you

have a mic and headphones.

Yes.

Because was that, was the process similar in that way for you?

Yes.

The process for sure of doing interviews, of visiting locations, uh, and even

of sort of scenes, um, some scenes kind of unfolding in real time.

We've, you know, recorded Rosh Hashanah dinner with my Italian Jewish family in

Rome, which was so loud and caco that like it was no chance it was gonna make it no

matter how good our, our audio work was.

But the research aspect of it, I would say it was more, was different

in that like we went into the archives, we had all these documents.

I dunno if it's Mr. Brody esque Exactly.

But just like, there was a lot of like text and historical research

to understand, to then also simplify for an audience and explain.

So it was less like in comparison, for example, to like, okay.

Betos on the road for a year.

Were following him and his family and these characters,

and were mostly just reactive to what is unfolding in real time.

There was a reconstructive element to this because it was historical

that felt very different.

I see.

And then thinking about how to use these letters and these moments to build scenes

and bring to life some of those moments.

So there were the real time verite we're on the ground, shit's unfolding.

Right.

But there was also moments that were fully reconstructive that required kind

of the research and then the sort of scene building through sound design.

Well, and the way you describe that and the way that it comes across right, is not

that different than if you were writing a play about this or if you were writing

based on a true story fictionalization.

Yes.

And so it's exciting to me because it feels like you, you got an opportunity

or you created an opportunity to walk.

New territory, but pick and choose like the best elements from your playwriting.

Yes.

Your improv, your documentary, you said back there a couple

moments ago, connecting dots.

Yes.

You know, like this feels like you had a chance to connect every dot.

Yes, that is really true and you're totally right about the

playwriting component of it.

And, and at a certain point I realized like, oh, I'm writing

dialogue for Stanley Tucci.

Like, here we go.

But I'm just hearing his voice and my grandfathers and great-grandfathers.

And it was all came very naturally, but it definitely was, and

building, working in an episodic nature, which was new to me, right.

That we had 10 episodes and the narrative airplanes not just doing

one flight, we gotta do 10 puddle jumps and they all are gonna be,

gotta be additive and cliffhangers.

And, you know, thinking in that way was, was super dramaturgical

and, and playwright I think in nature screen writey for sure.

Yeah.

I feel very grateful.

It, the idea that like, I, I sort of drew on every tool that I could.

F to also for the first time tell a personal story, which I had

never made anything personal to me.

Right.

In any way.

And so it was like, okay, is my family's story.

It feels relevant to this moment, and I got to try to or create an opportunity.

You're generous to say it's true.

We tried to figure out what's the best way to do it and to use any tool

that I had that I thought would make this land and be most compelling.

Well, there's one tool that you did not include.

Okay.

That I have been en raptured by on this entire walk.

You are the greatest hand speaker I have ever.

Italian.

I'm getting, I mean, yeah.

I mean, look, I'm half Italian.

I, I like, I like a little hand use, but like.

Maybe it's these, these big long arms, but like, you're so demonstrative

with, with the gesticulations, I mean

Italian and Jewish together.

There you go.

That's what it is, right?

Yeah.

There's a lot of personality

there.

And so if you're listening on Spotify, you might consider jumping over to YouTube

just for, he used the term Mario netting.

Yes.

And I would say, like, I would, I would not be surprised if like your

next thing is at the Modigliani Marionette theater with, with just

these two big arms and, and, and puppets of, uh, Stanley Tucci and Nana.

And, and I love that.

Well,

and that transitions nicely into, we skipped over your documentary about Beto.

Sure.

That was, he stuck it

in there a few times.

That

was on work HBO that you did previous to the podcast.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And that for a documentarian, like making an indie doc and selling it to

HBO is often like the pinnacle, like that's about as like good as it gets.

Yeah.

It's exciting.

And so then for you to go and make an audio only podcast is very personal.

Yeah.

Is really interesting.

I'm curious.

It's like a two part question about what you're doing next and then how you're

thinking about our industry evolving.

Yes.

Right.

Because as you evolve

Yes.

As you evolve because into

Mario netting.

Well, and it's so interesting to go like from basically a big

success with the sale to HBO Yes.

To then go into Yeah.

A podcast.

Yeah.

And then in a way, like your trajectory sort of rhymes with or matches the,

like, direction of the industry in a way where everybody's, that's interesting.

You know, listening to things on their phone and watching

things very personally mm-hmm.

Or going to the theaters, which projects aren't getting financed the same way.

One

more lap around this, this pond while we talk.

So I'm, I'm wondering where you're Yeah.

What you're working on now and where your head is at in terms of like Yeah.

How to tell nonfiction stories in this current climate.

Yes.

I will say, it's a great question.

I'll say first it is true that the, the Beto ride, the filmmaking

itself and getting to travel Texas.

To all, all of these places I had never been before and selling the

film, I had never had the experience of selling a film before the festival.

Oh wow.

Um, you know, finding distribution before the festival.

And we did that and I will never forget my mom and my sister, they had been Keith,

you were remembering like, you know, south by and Crawford premiering there and Yeah,

my mom and my sister, I had enlisted them in passing out flyers for the screenings

and everything and they showed up ready to work and they showed up at South by, which

is where we premiered the, the Beto doc, but we had already sold it to, to HBO.

So my mom, they're we're sitting down getting a coffee, they just

get into town and my mom's like.

So where's like the, the cards and the flyers and my sister points across

the street and there was a bus that HBO had put the ad like a a, an ad on

the side of, and my, my sister's like, mom, I think they got it taken care of.

And it was just a wildly different experience.

And it was, I just wanna pause that moment.

I never, I was like, this is, this is, this is will never happen again.

You know,

I, I just wanna pause that moment, that moment of sitting there with

your mom and your sister and the bus.

Billboard going by Marcello's children are going to make the most incredible hologram

podcast telling the Modigliani story.

Okay, good.

And that moment is going in and that bus is gonna flash

in front of all of our eyes.

Yes, yes.

I've never had a moment like that, you know?

I dunno if you've ever had a moment, well, you probably have had a moment like that.

I've

had billboards all over.

Yeah.

That's been pretty cool to see.

Super cool.

Yes.

Yeah, it's really, that's the moment where you're like, oh, I've made it in some way.

But the funny, my, my version of that story is that I was having

a brunch with my Hulu exec the day that our show came out.

Yeah.

And he was telling me how successful it was and how Yeah.

It looks like we're gonna go to season two.

And he shook gear up.

Yeah.

And then six months later, totally Disney reorgs fires half their team.

Yeah.

And our show didn't get picked back up.

So with the extreme highs come totally extreme lows.

And, and I think I was very grateful that that particular

project arrived at, in my life.

I was like 37, 38 when we started it.

That.

I knew, first of all in the making of it and then the distribution of it,

that it was something very special was happening and I was old enough

to appreciate and to just try to be present and like enjoy the ride.

Whereas if that had happened 10 years prior, I would've been like, oh, this is

just how it's like, you just, oh, it's cool and then you do this, and then that,

that, and like, I would've been so just focused on what was unfolding, but I was

like, new, like we've caught a wave here.

It's a beautiful ride that we're on.

And I was able to some degree, more than usual to like to be present

and to know that like a few months later, this thing will be out and, and

we're on the next and, and who cares.

Yeah.

Well if any could anyone could teach you that

lesson, it's better or work

Exactly.

Um, anyway, so, but to your question, from there to audio, I really do

believe that for me, if I find a story that I'm start to get passionate

about telling, then the question is like, what is the best way to tell it?

And the medium is part of the answer to that.

It has been super, a growth moment to get to do the podcast because I

didn't know what the fuck I was doing.

Right.

And I, it felt good, scary, but good to be like pretty uncomfortable right here

in middle age and trying some new shit.

And you know, I am by no means a master documentary filmmaker, but I had a

decent sense of like how one might go about making a feature doc and like

felt relatively competent at that.

Mm-hmm.

So to do something that was totally different in a different medium and to

find an audience in some success in that I think has been, feels like empowering.

Yeah.

Even at the same time that our general industry feels a little depressing

when we think about funding and distribution and where things are going.

I at least feel empowered of like that trying new mediums or new ways

that is still ultimately documentary storytelling or non-fiction storytelling.

Right.

And what has been totally different versus filmmaking is.

With a, a film, you know, you like, it's, there's a frictionless, it's frictionless.

The, the audio just in terms of like how the thing can fly around the world.

Like, so when we make, make a film and you're like, come to this screening,

or it's on this streaming service, you know, like, do you have this

streaming service or it's gonna be on at this time and trying to get

people to go and see the thing.

Yeah.

And audio, because of the RSS feed, because it is on, can be on all

the platforms around the world.

Right.

And that truly, someone can just text it to like, they like it, they

text it, there's a word of mouth.

That even when someone sees a great doc and you're like, do you have, it's Keith,

I want you to watch my friend Ben's film.

It's on Roku.

Send me a link.

Yeah, it's on KU thing and here's the Vimal.

Sit down.

Can you come to this screening and sit down?

Exactly.

As opposed

to someone gets through the link, but I can't get it onto my TV and

I don't wanna watch it on my phone.

As opposed to with audio is like, just check this out

while you're doing the dishes.

Yeah.

You know, or while you're like driving to, you know, or going

shopping for food or whatever.

And so the frictionlessness of how, of the distribution nature of audio,

as well as the consumption nature of it, I found that I have gotten so

much more feedback from the audio.

In part, it's different that there's not the in-person vibe

of like a q and a at a screening.

Right.

We've done a few events, but the online, like as far as the reviews, like on

Apple podcasts and just like how people are responding about their own, what it

made them think about their own story or this political moment or whatever it is.

It's been, I've gotten much more feedback from this project than any other, and

I've found that it has found an audience.

We had downloads in 182 countries, and you're, and the data also is crazy rich.

Like with a film, you're like, okay, it's yay.

It's on HBO.

And it was amazing.

But it's like, okay, some people watched it, but like most platforms,

as you guys know, they're not really sharing a lot in the weeds with you.

Right.

And in some cases may not have it.

Right.

Whereas with audio, you can see where, like down to what platform it was listened

to, you know, at, at what time and how far into the episode and all this stuff.

And so there was a richness to that data and sense of where the thing

actually went that felt like Right.

You know, exciting.

Incredible.

At the same time, I'm rambling here.

I'm, and I'm really gesticulating now.

The, I don't know that.

High quality Investigative, creative storytelling podcast is

necessarily like any more freaking sustainable than doc filmmaking.

Because was this moment in like 20, when we started this project?

Mm-hmm.

When like Spotify was acquiring narrative podcast for, you

know, four or five, $600,000.

And I was like, oh, this, this seems great.

Let's go for that.

I could see how that could go.

And it was a moment for them where they're acquiring these things.

'cause then they see the derivative rights in them.

They wanna be part of IP and IP play and Meredith, and

you give up 50% of that right, by making the deal.

It's something like that.

And we wound up making ours independently.

And we could talk about that and why, but that moment really

largely seems to have passed.

Yeah.

And that limited series in particular, as opposed to

always on series like doc walks.

Mm-hmm.

Where production costs are low and where you can build an audience because it's

going on every week or so for a long time.

A limited series, you've just got docent episodes and so the ad inventory

that's there is fairly limited.

Right.

And so for these distribution entities, they seem that we're kind

of wildly spending for a while.

That wave seems to have passed.

We made this independently and raised money just like we would

for a doc, a normal doc project.

And that allowed us to hold onto the ip, which is interest in part the

question about what's next issue, which is that we are making, gonna

make the Italian language version of this podcast with this Italian company

called Cora Media that wants to do it.

Talk about hands are, are you gonna be performing?

I'm gonna be in Italian co-hosting.

We're working with them now.

It's gonna be conceived a little differently because my accent in Italian

is, would be tiring for the whole jam, like my English American accent.

Right.

So there'll be a kind of co-host it.

It's almost like maybe a little bit like there's an Italian journalist

who'd be like, I met this American that came back to uncover his family story.

So I become more of like tape and a subject.

Okay.

And so you're not voting up

Duolingo and like carrying them?

Yeah, I am doing some of that.

Okay.

Because I'm gonna have to answer his questions in Italian and do that, but.

So we're doing that.

And then I have been working with Tucci and his production company to

try to adapt this for the screen.

Wow.

And we've been looking at both at limited series television or at a single narrative

feature that would tell part of the story.

And that is a much slower role.

And I hanker for the doc process where you can roll the snowball.

I see why people talk about development.

Hell and like, just like how that pro, how much slower that process

is and how much less agency you have than, than doc making.

Right.

But that's part of where, you know, we're headed next.

Gotcha.

I wanna wrap up.

Yes.

Our time in the park here, I stopped to see her so that we can

pay a little homage to, uh, this beautiful carved peacock because

it's the only fucking peacock we saw.

The only pea we found is in stone.

Yeah.

Stone, peacock.

Just like pea.

The stone peacock.

Exactly.

The stone peacock and us.

Uh, on this beautiful Saturday morning, which might be the name

of the episode.

Could be the stone.

There's a lot

of good, I think it's connecting the dots, but maybe it's the stone peacock.

I like it.

The stoned peacock.

Connecting the dots makes the most sense, I think, based on

what we've been talking about.

But here, uh,

hey, this has been like creative therapy for me.

You guys really held these

pieces together.

That's the great thing about that is our copay is low.

Um, you take Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Uh, I take it, I don't know what to do with it, but I'll take it.

I know that we like to end our episode with a lightning round.

I, you told us that you listened to several episodes in prep of this, so

you know what those questions are,

what questions are coming.

So we're gonna hit you fast and hard and then get out clean.

'cause I have to get back across town.

Happy birthday, Theo.

Yeah.

And hit my son's birthday party.

As a matter of fact, I'm on my way to pick up a cornhole set on the way home.

Fun.

And so, I'm not

sure we can say that on the podcast.

This, we might have to beep that

part.

This is our, this is our world and we can, we can cornhole as we please.

Hey.

Yeah.

Hey.

And you think you're busy.

This guy has to go do improv.

He's got, he's got

pizza.

He is got improv.

This has been a great start to the day.

I really feel like I figured out who I am Oh, here on that box.

So now I'm, I'm much more prepared for the day.

That's gonna be, that's gonna be a pull quote on the DVD box.

Yeah.

figured out who I am on Doc Watch.

Yeah.

Um, so what was the first film that was like the gateway drug that

made you feel like, you know what?

I can make documentaries, so I wanna spend my time thinking about how to do that,

that I made or watched, watched, watched.

I don't look back.

The DA Penny Baker so great.

Uh, was, it was a, a all time favorite and I didn't realize how much until

later when we were making the Beto film.

In a way, the idea of sort of like this truth teller on the road that went

from an unknown to becoming a huge.

Sensation, it sort of mirrored that arc. And I went back to that film

and actually got to, um, in New York, my friend said, we're just

doing a little feedback screening.

He said, I'd like to bring someone, do you trust me?

And I said, yes.

And DA Penny Baker was 91 I think way, and came and I got to meet

him and he watched a rough cut and it was like a real special.

We need to get Chris, hes on here.

Uh, I did a panel with Penny and Chris, Sarah and I, my wife and I

did a panel with Penny and Chris, creative couples working together.

And it was like, oh, great.

Blew my mind to be on a panel with them.

And what was even wilder was there was only about three people in the audience.

It was a, it was like a Sunday morning at the Montclair Film Festival.

And so it became just like a round table conversation with the audience

hanging and Penny and Chris.

And, and you know, he, he, he passed shortly after you

worked with him, I'm sure.

Yeah.

Twin, same time period?

I don't think so.

Oh.

We were sorry to mean to bring the podcast down.

The Pope died.

Yeah.

The

death of the death of the industry.

The death of the industry.

The death of the Pope, the fascist grandma that can't bring it down.

But don't kill Da Pennebaker.

Don't kill Penny.

Come

on.

Okay.

Alright.

So dream collaborator.

If you could collaborate with anybody right now.

Uh, living or dead, who would it be?

Do you know?

What just like popped into my mind.

I don't know why, but it's like I know that we all really res love and

respect Richard Linklater and I don't even know what I would collaborate

with him on, but I just am so amazed by his storytelling and pushing

the bound and, and from boyhood to the new Mary Lee We roll project.

Have you seen

Blue Moon or Nova?

No, I

wanna see

both

those.

He is on top of his.

Awesome.

It's on both of those movies are, I'm gonna see

Nova V on Wednesday if anybody wants to join me.

Okay.

Like the, the end of the day screening.

It's so

good.

Maybe that's more of an answer to just like, whom do I most sort of admire?

But I love how the way that he's always trying new stuff.

Yeah.

And that he's skirting his own independent voice and the market at the same time and,

and that he stayed here and built up this and what he's done, done

for a FS, which are getting to do rough cut screenings there for,

for Crawford when I was just moved here and you know, all the things.

And we've all benefited and we're all playing into his playground.

Yeah,

exactly.

He's

the man.

What's the thing you can't stop thinking about right now?

I'm gonna stop thinking about right now.

The honest answer is my son, because it was my first time being away.

Yeah.

So it was like this morning, waking up and being like, oh.

I go, oh.

And like, I went back to sleep for 20 minutes and it was

just, you know, unbelievable.

But I, I, I'm thinking about him a lot.

I guess in a broader sense, it's, it's, it's hard not to be thinking, or

I'm wrestling with how to metabolize our current political moment.

Mm-hmm.

And on the one hand, to be reading these, you know, pieces and getting the sense

of like, are we frogs and boiling water?

And feeling like some sense of alarm about the intensity of the question

of democracy in this country.

And at the other 10, like.

And walking with my friends through a beautiful Saturday morning

stroll and everything's fine.

And I think like that sense of deep concern and a sense of alarm while also

life goes on a pace is like, I think about that a lot and like how to metabolize or

reconcile those things like on a daily basis of just how do you integrate them.

We were just talking to somebody on a walk, I think last week.

These things are such a blur.

And we were talking about the, the political storytelling isn't about

recognizing what's happening that moment.

It's being able to kind of see what's gonna happen in the next moment.

Because these things take so long to make that by the time they come out.

Yes.

Like yes, raw frogs in a pot.

And when you realize that, you get real frustrated and you look around

and you're like, God, this moment, this world, this life, right now you're

looking at this moment right now.

Do you have any sense of what's coming next?

Please tell us.

Well, it's funny because in some ways the making of Pac one

bag when there was 2020 and.

I had this feeling like these fascist neofascist forces at

work aren't going anywhere.

And it took four years to make the project.

Right.

And in retrospect, you know, we released it in July of 2024 before the election.

And in retrospect, with a crystal ball, I actually would've waited until like

this past spring because I think that even more people would feel like, oh, I,

I am interested in like, how do you know when to flee a country and how do you

confront fascism and all these things.

So there was this, I had that sense of like, this, this

story is gonna be relevant.

Then where are we going now?

I mean, uh, I, I, I wish I had something insightful to say.

I do believe that narrative matters and attention matters to your

questions, you know, about our industry and format and forum, but just.

Finding stories and narratives that can break through.

Mm-hmm.

Um, particularly when there is just so much political attention grabbing,

going on feels, feels urgent, but I don't, I don't have a strong sense of

where we're, where exactly we're headed.

Well,

that's okay.

You know what,

and you know what?

We didn't either on this dock walk.

Hey.

That's right.

People will, people will tune in next week to get the answer of what's

coming next from our next guest.

Next time, it'll,

it'll be like, yeah.

Our, our walk today down many various paths retracing some steps.

Yeah.

Ultimately ending in the shade, in, in brotherhood and democracy.

And we did see a peacock there.

Right.

Even though it wasn't, we set out to see, we did see one.

Yes.

Which is in some way kind of lifeless.

The

third act brought a peacock.

It just was stoned.

Well, thanks for doing this, man.

This has been a treat.

It's a treat for me.

And happy

birthday Theo.

Happy birthday Theo.

Appreciate y'all.

I'm off to Theo's birthday party.

We'll catch you next time on Doc, on Dock Walks.

Hey.

Oh, when you do an Italian.

I am Serena Ani.

Thank you so very much for listening or watching on the

YouTubes, uh, of Dog Walks.

And I'm Franco and uh, I just want to say we are very appreciative.

Please rate and review the podcast because we really want to reach more listeners.

Thank you so much.

Uh,

thank you so much.

That was, that was David Mauli.

I, I love that episode.

I thought that was hilarious being he talked with his hands, but

also, I like that we got lost.

We tried to go down a trail that was too rocky.

We turned around.

There was like some kind of madcap.

I wanted more peacocks, and it's the only thing, my only

complaint about that episode.

I've, I have all, nothing but positives about that episode.

Except next time I'm gonna call ahead and order the peacocks.

Um, yeah.

Oh, please do that.

Yeah, more

episodes,

more peacocks, more peacocks coming.

And

thank you to our sponsor, peacock from NBC Universal.

It just sounds that natural rolls right off the top.

But we do actually have a sponsor for this episode.

We've been sponsored this whole time.

But the long time, which is it full time, a concert venue.

It's a, it's a baseball venue.

It's where my wife and I got married.

It's where David and you played baseball together, where we play baseball on

the Texas Playboys, my hat I'm wearing, you can rent it for commercials.

My company, the Bear is shot out there lots of times.

So big shout

out to Jack Sanders and the long time and all.

Very grateful that have supported this episode.

If you're a new listener because the long time sent you here, thank you.

Please stick around when we're not talking to baseball players.

That'll be the true test.

So this has been a great episode.

David's podcast

pack one bag.

Pack one bag is fantastic.

For those of you who haven't heard it, please go listen to it.

It's eerily apropos for the moment that we're living in, and David

does a fantastic job playing all the different characters.

That's which you get a piece of at the end of the episodes.

Not enough.

I would take more, I could, I I want that guy to do my,

uh, my outgoing phone message.

So thanks again, David.

Thank you guys for being here next time on Pod.

Pod walks, pod walks.

Oh boy.

We need to cut on dock walks.

Yeah, we'll keep it rolling.

They know what I meant.

They're still here.

Um, next time on Dock Walks, we're gonna wrap things up for 2025.

It's our Dock Walks year in review.

That's right.

Hopefully it's the first of many years in review, but this

time we're gonna focus on 2025.

That's that's right.

And this is the end of our first year.

We have made upwards of 35 episodes like that, and we're gonna look back at them

and talk about our what, go with some ups, some downs, some in the middle.

Things we could do better,

but we're not gonna do it alone.

We are inviting long time friend, long time listener, and first time full,

full-time caller, full-time filmmaker.

All around.

Great human being.

Sally O'Grady is joining us.

That's right.

For this year in review.

She's got opinions and she's going to share them.

And she's also got a film that she's gonna share, Sally's film.

The trouble I see is, is coming to a FS Cinema on January 14th.

And coming to digital platforms all around America on January 16th.

Yep.

And Sally's a gem.

She is just so full of good energy and I am, uh, just thrilled to get to know

her better talk to her on the podcast.

She was there at the beginning when we, uh, started doing this.

We went to Sundance and she's gonna

last us all also.

Yes, she's the best.

So this is gonna be a great episode.

stick around next time for a year in review.

We hope you've been having a happy holiday season.

We hope you're staying warm.

We appreciate

you.

I appreciate you.

I appreciate you Keith Mail and I'm grateful.

I'm grateful we get to do this.

And thank you guys for listening and uh, we'll see you

next year.

Dayton Cue, the music doc walks is produced, directed, edited by me,

Keith Maitland, and him Ben Steinberger and co-producer Dayton Thompson.

We'll catch you on the trail next time on Doc Walks one foot in front of the other.

Stop talking.