EP030 – I’m With the People (and the Butterflies) w/ Rena Effendi

11.13.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 30

Meet Rena Effendi—National Geographic photographer, and first-time filmmaker whose SEARCHING FOR SATYRUS just won the top doc prize at the Austin Film Festival. This walk is pure magic—seemingly in honor of her butterfly-hunting film, monarch butterflies flit all around us like they know something the rest of us don’t. Rena’s film traces her hunt for one of the world’s rarest butterflies, named after her father—a Soviet-era lepidopterist who collected 90,000 specimens before his untimely death. This unique species flies only once a year, on a mountaintop, above 10,000 feet, and along the militarized border between Azerbaijan and Armenia—two countries at war for decades. Just five people had ever seen the Satyrus Effendi—and that’s when Rena enters the story.

She’s got a lot to say about complicated family stories, layers of secrets, and life in the collapsing Soviet Union. Rena unpacks her jump from medium-format still photos to motion picture storytelling, building teams vs. working solo, and why neutrality matters when you’re documenting war—even when it’s your own country.

Plus: a cowboy guitarist on a bicycle, honky-tonk dancing at the White Horse, and why documentary photographers make fearless filmmakers. A woman of the people, and of the butterflies, Rena Effendi is the real deal.

DISCUSSION LINKS: SEARCHING FOR SATYRUS (2025) | PAST LIVES (2023) | HONEYLAND (2019)

TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Introduction—Budapest or Istanbul? 01:00 Searching for Satyrus and the Austin Film Festival Win 02:00 Monarch Butterflies and the Rare Satyrus Effendi 04:00 First Time in Austin, First Film 05:00 From Office Job to Photographer—The Magnum Moment 08:00 Collapsing Soviet Union and Standing in Food Queues 10:00 Father’s Death and Choosing Butterflies Over Geology 13:00 The Craft of Pinning Butterflies Like a Jeweler 14:00 Early Photography—Documenting Mahala’s Transformation 16:00 City Symphonies and Capturing Disappearing Identity 18:00 Story Arcs in Still Photography 19:00 The Dying Mother—Last Picture in the Series 21:00 Austin’s Transformation and Tech Bro Architecture 24:00 Birth of the Film—Googling Her Father’s Name 26:00 The Butterfly Named After Her Father 27:00 Discovering a Half-Sister at Age 14 30:00 Healing Through Art—Looking at Father Through New Lens 32:00 2020 War and Gaining Access to Habitat 33:00 Building the Team—Producers and National Geographic Grant 36:00 Leadership Challenges of Filmmaking vs. Photography 37:00 Mom’s Resistance and Opening Up 40:00 Kevin Andrew—Picking and Pedaling Through Austin 43:00 First Impressions of Austin and White Horse 45:00 Growing Up in War-Torn Culture 47:00 Neutrality and Non-Judgment 49:00 Artists vs. Journalists—The Blurry Line 51:00 Speed Round—Past Lives, Stay True to Story, Kill Your Darlings 54:00 Where to Find the Film

Okay, so Keith, where are we and what are we doing?

Well, we are crossing a not very busy intersection of downtown

Austin on an early Tuesday morning.

We are on the heels of Austin Film Festival and I am thrilled

to present to you the winner of the documentary competition.

Rena Afendi, who is here visiting from her home in Budapest, no.

Istanbul.

Istanbul, not Istanbul.

Constant, noble, sorry.

Her home in Istanbul, by my mistake.

I think you just wanted to say Budapest.

I love saying Budapest because I say Budapest, but I'm also from Kansas

and Oklahoma and live in Texas, so I pronounce everything incorrectly.

I say Budapest as well.

I don't see, I don't that that, but in Russia it's Budapest.

Oh, baboom.

Yeah.

Score points on the Russia.

Rena, welcome.

Thank you.

Very happy to be here in this beautiful city.

I am very pleased to hear that you think it's a beautiful city.

We obviously also agree, but is this your first time in Austin?

first time in Austin.

I've been to Texas before.

I've been to Houston for a day.

This is my first proper introduction to Texas, I guess.

Okay.

Alright, well watch the scooters right here.

This is a great introduction.

Let's let these guys scoot by us here.

Hello.

How

you doing?

Hello?

So do they have scooters like that in Azerbaijan?

Azerbaijan, probably not so many, but definitely in Istanbul, although it's

a hilly city, so it's very difficult.

It's kind of a death trap.

If you take a scooter up the hill, going down and hitting the highway

would be, you know, oh yeah,

you don't wanna take them.

Problematic.

Yeah,

problematic.

So, but yeah, they, we do have scooters along the sea.

People take them along the sea, where, where it's more flat.

Ooh, look at that.

The Monarch.

Okay,

beautiful.

It's not just that we're stopping and getting a butterfly in

our shot here with Rena, but

beautiful.

That couldn't be more appropriate for Rena's.

Beautiful film.

Searching for satis.

Yes, that's right.

And you left

are listening to Doc Walks with Ben and Keith.

Searching for Satis Austin Film Festival winner, Nat Geo supported documentary,

personal film, and a film all about the quest for one particular butterfly.

Not that beautiful monarch,

not the beautiful monarch, but much, much, much more rare than the Monarch.

In fact, the opposite.

AKA Monarch is one of the world's most common butterflies that travels.

Thousands of miles migrates from one area to another, so it's seen in all

these places, whereas the butterfly that I've been on the search for is

an endemic species and it lives in one place, tiny habitat on the border

between my country, my home country, Azerbaijan, and its neighbor Armenia.

Two countries that been at war for now, close to four decades.

It's a militarized border high in the mountains, and it's one of the rarest

butterflies and one of the most critically endangered ones, and only five people

in the world had actually seen it.

Unlike the Monarch, which we just encountered here in Austin.

That's right.

Yes.

That is the polar opposite.

Yeah, absolutely opposite.

Although sometimes it does feel like we're in a militarized zone being in Texas right

now with our politics the way they are.

I think

you are.

I think you really, you really are.

Somebody described it, what is it, A blue.in the Red

Sea or something like that?

Yes.

Yeah.

We're a blueberry in the tomato

soup.

Blue

blueberry.

Yeah.

Uh,

well, searching for Satis is a film in search of a butterfly, but

it is also a film in search of.

Lost family history.

It's a film layered in metaphor.

It's a beautiful film, visually, and it's an emotional film.

Thank

you.

And it's a personal film.

It's all of these things.

And Rena is a first time filmmaker and I don't like that, to be honest with you.

Why?

Why, why not?

Oh, too many, too many good things.

All in one package for the first time out.

So tell us how you got your start.

You were, you're a

photographer first.

Yes.

So I've been a photographer for about.

I guess over two decades now.

I started in early two thousands.

Funny story there.

I was working in an office back then for a US Embassy, and there were two

invitations that came to my desk.

One was for the opening of the first McDonald's restaurant in my country.

Here's another Monarch, and the other one was for the opening of a, of a photography

exhibition called East of Magnum.

Which documented history of Soviet Union after the collapse

by Magnum photographers, by

famous magnum photographers.

Nice.

So guess where did I choose to go?

So all my friends went to Magnos and I thought, you know, there's something

interesting about this exhibition.

I'm gonna go.

So I went to the exhibition, and for the first time in my life I saw photographs

of my reality depicted with the emotional, artistic eye of these masterful.

Artists, photographers, and journalists.

And that was the moment when I thought it was just one of the wow moments.

I stopped and thought I could do this.

I picked up the camera, couldn't put it down.

I went to the streets and that's how it all started for me.

So I became a storyteller with the camera.

So there was the visuals first.

Really the the visuals.

I encourage you to tell stories.

Well, I think it's, I think it's not the visual so much as the relationship, like

the context of seeing her life depicted

these photographers.

Yes, yes, it was.

It was true because the way we remember our history is very bleak.

Right.

It was a very bleak history.

It was very tumultuous spirit in our lives, especially the last few

years leading up to the collapse.

It was.

You know, economic stagnation.

I remember standing in queues for food, for basics like butter and meat and milk.

With my mother.

My mother would scribble a number on my palm, like 140 or something

and, and keep me in that queue, and then walk over to the other queue

and queue up for other basics.

And 140 would be, I would be the hundred and 40th person in the queue.

Wow.

Standing and waiting for basic things.

And we had Russian cards so we could only buy this much butter, this

much meat and this much, you know, flour and milk and basic goods.

We didn't have water for, for, you know, weeks at a time, no gas.

It was, everything was collapsing.

And we watched, uh, the country collapse in front of us.

And then of course the war,

and I'm sorry, and I'm sorry, this is in Azerbaijan.

This is in Azer.

Azerbaijan was part of Soviet of Soviet Union.

Right.

So that's how I grew up.

And in these years, also towards the late eighties, you know, early

nineties, up until the 91, when the US CS R finally dissolved, it was

also the year when the war began.

With Armenia.

So we had communal violence, we had Russian tanks on the streets, you

know, so we had, uh, I cross the you wanna fight you this, or you

wanna just kind of work our way back to the park?

We kinda,

or we can walk, we walk back.

Just, yeah.

Flip around.

Yeah.

This is so nice down here.

It's fascinating.

Kind of hearing your story of, of growing up.

In a time of war, in a time of like massive upheaval in the fall

of Soviet Union in 19 90, 19 91.

Yeah.

This is also the same time when your father passed away.

My father, exactly.

So my father was sick and, and dying slowly of, of cancer.

And so watching all of that as a child, as a teenager at the time when you know your

hormones are playing a trick on you and, and when everything is falling, falling

in front of you, uh, and collapsing.

So that was, that was very bleak.

So for me, when I saw these photographs, there was something very emotional

in them, the way these photographers were able to depict that reality,

but in a very emotional way.

Also, you know, I grew up in Soviet Union.

For us, photography was used as propaganda was used as state

propaganda, and we only saw.

Pictures of success, you know, happy pictures, picking up hay and,

and doing this like agricultural labor or workers, strong workers.

So it was all, none of it was true.

So these pictures, for the first time I saw emotional moments.

Personal moments, truthful moments, and that was something that

struck me as, you know, you can actually do this as a photographer.

You can, you can go out there and you can tell stories by laying out

the visual narrative with pictures.

You know, with still images, right, that have this power to arrest reality.

To arrest the moment, capture the moment, freeze it.

In a, in a way that can touch people, you know?

And your father, who was a famous scientist mm-hmm.

Which is what your film is about.

Yeah.

And he studied butterflies.

Yes.

Ops.

What was his reaction to you wanting to be a photographer and then a film

back?

No, back then when I, so when I became a photographer, he was already

gone by then, so I was, I was just.

14 when he passed away.

He passed away in March 91.

Oh, I'm sorry.

That's that been so hard.

Yeah.

So by then he, he wasn't around.

Let's go here.

But it's a good question.

I always wonder what he would've thought.

I think maybe he would've probably supported it because he also so sort

of chose a very ridiculous profession.

Right.

You know, as a student, he went to university to study geology, which

was a very lucrative field because.

Azerbaijan had a burgeoning oil industry.

So as a geologist, like that was sort of a logical thing for someone to do

to study geology, especially for a man.

It was quite in demand, that profession among men.

I love

that.

We are,

I just wanna point out like we are surrounded by, by

butterflies being followed.

So we're surrounded by beautiful flowers as well.

I mean, look, look at dragon.

Some flies.

Amazing.

He is like, you see?

What is that?

This is, I I That pink flower

looks fake.

Right?

Like that's not real.

This

is so beautiful.

These a lot of flowers, I guess.

Seems like it.

That's so gorgeous.

I never knew I would encounter this kind of wilderness in the middle of the city.

It's lovely.

She's got a camera.

He's got a camera.

I've got a camera.

Nothing.

Yes.

So, yeah.

So, but then in the middle of geology, in the middle of his studies, he

turns around and says that's it.

He quits and he joins biology, narrowing himself down to lipid doctorate,

which is butterfly science like, and everyone, like all his friends.

And I guess his parents were like, what?

You're gonna be a butterfly scientist?

Like what?

It's not a job for a man, you know?

So that everybody, right.

Even, you know, whenever he presented himself as a butterfly scientist, like.

People, you know, even my mothers didn't think that was a, a good choice for her.

So of course, when I became a photographer, when I quit my day job

with my monthly paycheck with stability and everything, my mom was shocked.

She was like, are you crazy?

She almost disowned me, and I think my father in that sense, because

he has done the same thing, he would've probably supported me.

That's what,

yeah.

I'm imagining.

Yeah.

It seems like he was a man built for adventure.

was a dreamer.

Yeah.

And you have to do that to, to, to be a photographer.

'cause you have to be able to, to drop in a situation and kind of connect dots that

other people aren't connecting and see,

yeah,

see the humanity in the people there.

See the beauty in the landscape.

What were you gonna say, Ben?

You have to

be, I was gonna say, you have to be a dreamer and not listen to people

telling you that it's unrealistic.

That's

crazy.

a photographer, a documentary filmmaker.

Yes.

To study butterflies.

And so I guess it sounds like you had that sort of gene you I think so, yeah.

You, you were exposed to that at an early age.

And did that sort of help you?

I don't know, become more fearless maybe in your profession?

I think maybe, I mean, watching my father, how dedicated he was to

how devoted he was to his craft.

I call it craft sometimes, because the way he pinned the butterflies

and spread the wings, it's almost like a work of a jewelry, you know?

Like it's very precise with, you know, very steady hands.

Also, he drew them very beautifully, like with scientific precision,

like the butterflies came alive in his drawings as well.

So, yeah, the way he.

He dedicated himself to, to that work

was like an artist.

It was, yeah.

It was, it was a form of art.

And, and I always admired that.

I admired that dedication and I wanted to have something in my life

that I could dedicate myself Right.

In the same way.

And, and up until I became a photographer, I didn't have that.

You know, I, I, I just, I, I had a job, you know?

I was just kind of going in, punching in hours, and then that's it.

Talk to us about the early days of your photography and kind

of like what drew your eye.

You know, the kind of the first years was literally walking around the

neighborhood where I grew up as a child and around the house where I grew up

was this area called Mahala, which from, if you translate it from Arabic, it

means neighborhood, but it was this kind of rundown area, almost like a slum.

Mm. Which with the in infusion of oil money that came in,

sort of mid to late nineties, started transforming, developing.

So what happened was the, it was, it was in the center of the city.

So, you know, you all know gentrification, right?

Look around.

Yeah, look

around.

So it was, it was, it was in the middle of the city.

So it was good real estate.

Yeah.

So what they did was they started buying people out of their.

Old homes and wiping out these beautiful old traditional homes and cultures.

And I, for four years, I walked around documenting that change, the urban

transformation of my city all around,

what city is that?

Rena?

That's Baku.

Where I, where I was born and raised.

So, so that, that became basically my first big project.

I, I saw how the face of the city was changing.

So it was, there was a lot of issues with that.

Yeah.

And I documented it as a social documentarian.

I, I went after that kind of subject.

You know what's interesting about, about that is like the history of documentary,

there's a whole genre called like Symphony cities or City symphonies.

Yes.

Where, uh, it was a lot of Russian filmmakers, honestly, who started

doing that and just basically making like a portrait of their cities.

But they were doing it with, with motion man, with the camera Russian, the camera,

which is man with the movie camera man.

With the movie

camera.

That's right.

So did you feel like when you were getting started that you were capturing.

Uh, independent moments or were you putting together a broader story?

Did it change over time as you were?

I was putting together, uh, a portrait of my city through

portraits of the people that were no longer part of, of that landscape.

You know, they were pushed to the edges of the city.

Their homes were destroyed.

Uh, they were disappearing.

I was obsessed with capturing.

A, an identity.

Mm-hmm.

A cultural identity of a place that was transforming and disappearing

in order to preserve it.

For posterity, basically.

Yeah.

Or for myself, you know, at the time I had no idea what, what's gonna

be with, you know, where, where I'm gonna go with this photography.

Crazy job of photography.

Right, right.

I just started taking pictures.

and, and so how, how old are you in this period?

I was, I was in my early twenties.

So this is 2001.

When you're working in, in like the documentary idm, which you did

with, with searching for satis.

Yeah.

You know, you're, you're basically working off of a.

A conceit that's been established over decades and decades.

Right.

90 minutes or so is a feature.

Mm-hmm.

Beginning, middle, and end, three x structure, character, introduction,

resolution towards the end.

How do you approach photographic portraiture of a community through

all these different facets when there isn't like these kind of clearly

delineated boundaries of like when a story is beginning, when it's

ending, how you know you've gotten it.

You know, for me the arc was the end of the neighborhood.

They end the, the loss of culture.

And literally, I'll tell you that story from Mahalla, from that

neighborhood, the way it ends.

I was walking down the street with my camera and I have a very funny camera.

I work with a fl. It's, I don't know, is that medium format?

Medium format.

My camera kind

of, you look down into the, with

fl look down, looks like one of these, you know, this, it looks like

a music organ, little box, you know.

So I, I walk with that camera and then there's a man, an elderly

man, he comes up to me and he says.

Can you come with me to my house?

And I asked him, okay, I'll come.

Why?

He said, it's my mother's last day of life.

She's dying, and I want you to photograph that moment.

I said, okay, because, because he said, I want to have a memory.

So I walk in with him, we, I open the door of his shack and there she is.

She is lying in bed.

There's this light streaming from the window.

It's this, she's breathing really heavily.

And I remember my, myself, like holding my breath like.

Kind of, I felt like if I breathe in, I will somehow breathe in death.

I don't know.

It was my first time seeing a dying person like that on the last day of their life.

So close.

Wow.

I stood frozen and I was not alone.

My photography teacher, 'cause I was just beginning, was with, with me,

and he saw my super and he's like 2.8 15, like aperture and shatter speed.

Wow.

So I, I, I did 2.8.

2.8 15. I studied my hands, I held my breath.

I took a photograph, I walked out.

Next day I developed a print, you know, gelatin, silver print in the dark room.

I walked to the neighborhood, found the man in his house, mother was gone.

So that was, that's the last picture in my, in the series.

That's

of that mother dying and, and that house disappeared and that house

was knocked down a few months later.

Everything has, has this natural arc, you know, if it was just a sort of collecting

pictures, it would be just a portfolio.

Right.

You know, it's not a portfolio, it's a story.

Well, I love the fact that the, not only does the story have an

arc, but the storyteller gets to decide what the arc is for them.

Of course.

And so for you in that moment, yeah, the story and you met together and,

and that realization came through.

This is, yeah, this is complete.

Absolutely.

And every single story I've ever worked on has that kind of last picture moment.

Sometimes it just happens naturally.

Sometimes you have to think about it, but it always needs to conclude somehow.

And that, I think that informed my.

Storytelling as a, as a filmmaker as well, because it's sort of like

the basic rules of storytelling.

You know?

Rena, let's stop here for a second, because I'm, I'm so taken

with the idea that like you're.

First project as a photographer was documenting the transition of the city.

Yeah.

And we're in a really interesting place for that in Austin.

Yeah.

So if you look over here, that's the state capitol.

Yeah.

Right.

It's, I can see it's like arguably one of the oldest buildings here in this skyline.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

And then as we sort of like pan across, we're in this park

that what Keith has built like within the last five years or so.

Wow.

The Moody amphitheater and.

Yeah.

And then if you come over here, then you start to see tech bro.

Architecture.

Tech, bro, architecture,

tech, bro.

Architecture is the name of the game in this town lately.

Yeah.

We are sort of in an interesting, like almost inflection

like pivot point of Austin.

Yeah.

With the capital framing, the kind of anchoring the whole thing.

Yeah.

It, it reminds me of Baku is basically this kind of hodge spot of the, the old

architecture from the middle, the middle ages, you know, the, the fortresses and.

And then outside the fortresses, you get this European architecture

because I don't know if you know anything about Azerbaijan.

Well, you, I know as Texans, you'll probably relate to it.

The first commercial oil fountain gushed in my country.

Okay.

So some of the investors like, no, the Nobel Brothers Rothschild.

They made their money in Azerbaijan with First Oil that was turned of the century.

So that's where oil history comes from, and I'm

sure they turned that money right back around into the

community and supported everybody.

They

did Well, they, they actually kind of did, no, I'm not sure about Russia,

but the, the local oil magnets, uh, that became rich with oil money.

They built hospitals and schools.

Okay.

They also built mansions like European style mansions because what happened,

they started traveling abroad to Europe.

And seeing all this architecture, and they wanted to bring that spirit back home.

So outside the medieval fortress walls, you have this incredible

art Novo European architecture.

It was literally like an oil.

Barron would travel abroad with his wife, and the wife would

say, I love this Venetian palace.

And he would build it as a surprise.

There was one who built an OK Opera because he wanted to impress an

opera singer, you know, so it it, these were the stories of the city.

Outside of that, you get Soviet.

Blocks, cinder blocks.

Right.

The misery, right.

Kind of like looks like that, right?

Like this, whatever that is.

Parking lot.

Yeah.

So we have all the star architects and that's, that's come with the new

oil, the influx of the new oil money.

you get multimillion dollar buildings, sky rises on the edges of the city

and sometimes in the middle of the city taking over old neighborhoods.

Yeah.

So, you know, we have the old building, you have the park, you have this new.

So you feel right at home

way?

I feel kind of at home.

Yeah.

We are here like smack dab in the middle of a butterfly migration and obviously

that tee up searching for satis.

Can you talk a little bit about the birth of this film and kind of how

you got started wanting to tell the story and the first steps that you took

the birth of this film, I guess?

Um, that came about on that day when I've looked up my

father's name on the internet.

I searched, I put his name in a search in a Google search bar, and I discovered

there's, there was a Wikipedia page about him and I started reading it and

at the bottom of the page there was another link leading to the link of

this butterfly called Rozi, named an owner of my father by his best friend,

a fellow lipid doctor called Kuka.

He was Ukrainian.

And I started reading about this butterfly and realizing where, you

know, the, the characteristics of this butterfly, where it flies.

So it flies again on the border between Armenian Azerbaijan, two countries at war.

The border is high mountainous, uh, terrain over 3,100 meters above the sea.

I don't know in miles how it's about

10,000 feet.

Yeah, it appears only once a year for two weeks, then disappears.

The, the, the, the season of flight shifts, it's one generation butterfly,

not like the monarch monarch, you know, several generations throughout the year.

This one only once, right?

The caterpillars of this butterfly feed on a very rare endemic plant

that only grows in the, in that habitat and nowhere else in the world.

Oh my

gosh.

So this is like one of the rarest species,

one of the rare species of the butterfly.

So I started looking up like, who knows this butterfly?

And I found this Russian scientist.

Who wrote about it, who apparently collected some specimens from the habitat.

So I get in touch with him and he writes back, wow, I can't

believe you are the daughter.

This has been the butterfly, my obsession for five years.

And I, nobody believed it existed.

Everyone, all the scientists thought it was a myth that it's not real.

Like my goal was to dispel the myths to go out and find it.

And I did.

And as he did, he went to this exclave.

That is sort of surrounded by the militarized border, and he was arrested

for being a Russian spy because he wasn't supposed to be there and interrogated.

We, we have to stop for a second and just explain what we're walking through here.

There's some kind of, uh, children's dance party happening under this

beautiful, very cute live oak.

If you're in Austin on a Tuesday morning, Waterloo Park may be the

place to be If you're a 4-year-old.

The spot I wanna get, I wanna recenter here, Rena, because you

were 14 when your dad passed away.

Yes.

And when was it that you woke up one day and said, I'm gonna do a Google search?

Oh no,

sorry.

So obviously in 91 there was no Google.

So, and I was quite bitter as a teenager when he passed away because

he led a very difficult life.

That brought a lot of pain to, to me, my mother, our family.

So I was, I was really bitter with him for many years.

I would say probably the first decade.

I didn't even wanna think that I had a father, but then as I

became a photographer, I started encountering people who knew him.

Yeah.

Other photographers who traveled with him.

When he went butterfly hunting, they photographed the butterflies

with him, and they all started telling me stories about him.

Like what kind of man he was, how amazing he was, his great sense of humor.

You know, how charismatic he was.

So I became curious about him, and that was also the time right

before my father passed away.

I learned that, um, he had a parallel family, uh, that he had another daughter.

So I, I met, I met my half sister for the first time.

Wow.

Right before.

Wow.

Right before my father passed, he passed

away

right before my father passed away.

And you were 14 And she was

She was 14.

So we were the same.

We were nine months apart.

Parallel family is a, is a, is a very kind way and a generous

way to describe that situation.

' cause I have to watch the film to figure out what, what went on.

I'm not gonna.

I'm not gonna disclose more details.

No, I appreciate that.

And I wanna say like this is a film, it's easy to kind of get sucked into talking

about butterflies, which are beautiful and mysterious, and the photography of the

butterflies really brings them to life.

Yeah.

But what spoke to me in the audience mm-hmm.

Is the family story and the layers and the personal.

Discoveries that you were making, the kind of adventure you go on

almost in parallel to your dad's.

Yeah.

Collection of, of butterfly knowledge.

You're collecting personal family history.

I'm picking up breadcrumbs he left behind.

Yeah.

Through the people that knew him, that encountered him.

The other people who loved him.

That's how it started.

So it led me to, it kind of expanded my curiosity a bit, and I realized

like I could heal from all the trauma.

Oh my God.

Look at this tree full of butterflies.

Sorry, this is just, just crazy.

Yeah, I got Keith.

This is so beautiful.

We made a

couple calls,

sorry.

Once we booked this, we were like, we need to do something a little extra.

That's amazing.

Wow.

Look at this.

This is pure magic.

I realized that the way to heal from the kind of the, the trauma.

That he brought upon our lives is to look at him, not through the lens of an

embittered daughter looking at her fa failing father, a father who failed her,

but through a lens of an artist looking at another artist and looking at his

life and what drove him and looking at those aspects of his existence, because

there were many, you know, incredible, remarkable things that he had done even.

For the caucus for my region, he was considered the preeminent

authority on butterflies.

So that had to account for something.

So I, I became curious about those aspects of his life and learning about them more.

And that led to me looking up his name, uh, realizing there's a butterfly.

Then becoming obsessed with the idea of finding this butterfly.

Finding people who knew about this butterfly, of which there was one,

Dimitri, the other one was dead.

His friend who named the butterfly after him was already had already passed away.

And then, uh, setting out on a journey to track it down.

And so that's how the idea was born.

How did you start this journey?

Like what was your first step, uh, in development?

first step in that year that I found about the butterfly, this was 2017.

At that time, we were still in a state of war.

We are still in a state of conflict with Armenian.

Back then, it was a frozen conflict, but the lands around the habitat

were still occupied by Armenia.

So I had no access to these lands as another Virginia couldn't go there.

Right.

It was under military occupation.

Right.

So in 2020, Azerbaijan waged.

Another war against Armenia and recaptured those lands, so they've become accessible

to Azerbaijanis, and I was able to actually travel and follow the path.

My father always went on from Baku across this region of Nagorno Carrabba.

I don't know if you're familiar with this conflict.

Armenian Azerbaijan fought a war over this region in enclave called Naor.

Which was, um, within Azer, within Soviet Azerbaijan, but populated by Armenians.

Mm. Okay.

And they voted to unite with Armenia, and that's what sparked the war.

Okay.

the 80, in sort of, in the early nineties, late eighties.

So I was able to actually travel across the terrain now, and in 2021,

I got a small seed grant from this.

Sort of initiative by the World Economic Forum called The New Narrative Lab.

Mm-hmm.

So they gave me, I think, $28,000 Alright.

To roll out and, and do my first research trip.

So I was able to do that and I did a teaser with which I then

applied for further funding and, and then got that funded.

And so when you're in the process of, of getting started

because you've had 20 years of.

Photography experience.

Mm-hmm.

And you've worked with, you know, powerful institutions like Nat Geo.

Who did you build out your team of collaborators with?

Tell me about that.

I called up, uh, a producer called Matt Fletcher, with whom I worked

on a few National Geographic projects, and he became my producer.

And then I was chatting with my friend and colleague, another

wonderful filmmaker, la.

Who made a feature documentary that premiered in hot dogs, and we were

talking about filmmaking and ideas, and I told her about my idea and

she's like, I wanna be involved.

I said, I want you to be involved.

So she became my producer.

So these were the two people, the first two people that I was in touch with.

And they've become, they've come on board since then.

They've become producers for the film.

And uh, yeah.

And then I applied.

For a grant at the National Geographic Society, uh, a storytelling grant.

And I was lucky enough to get it and get fully funded.

Well, so much, so much of our audience is emerging filmmakers and they're people

who have a story they want to tell.

They're trying to figure out those first couple steps and you know, I was

surprised when I saw your film at how.

Pro it really felt and came together.

It didn't feel like a first time filmmaker.

It felt like somebody who had really put together a great concept, a great team,

and had made like a lot of wise decisions.

And so it, it stands out not only as a great film, but

as a great first time film.

I'm curious, like before we move on, like what did you learn.

That was different than your experience as a photographer, especially in those

early days, like in the first year or year and a half of the project, as

you're just trying to figure out, is this thing, does it have a chance to be real?

Oh my god, so many things.

I mean, it's, it's so, it's such a different process.

First of all, photography or photo journalism is a

very kind of lonesome trade.

You often end up alone, or maybe 2 1 2 people on the road.

I did a lot of work alone because.

My first years, I was exploring my own surroundings on my own.

I didn't have a fixer, I didn't have a translator, I didn't have a driver.

I just literally walked around on my own.

Traveled sometimes on my own.

But, you know, you do work in a team, but it's probably like

two to three people, right?

With this, in this case, you have to work with a, a big team.

Yeah.

And, and you have to work with people who have emotions, who have disagreements,

who have, you know, their own opinions and you have to balance all of that.

So it's, it's kind of.

It's like a leadership challenge, you know?

Yeah.

Aside from being, you know, creatively involved, you have

to be sort of navigating these like, uh, you know, team dynamics.

Right, right.

So, which is, which was something that I had to learn on, on the go.

We should stop right here and frame up a beautiful shot of you and the capitol.

Alright, because

the, this is pretty amazing.

What do you, uh, think of when you look at that building there?

Oh my God, I don't know.

Should I have emotions?

You're allowed to,

don't,

you don't have to.

don't know.

I mean, it's beautiful as, as a building, as, as.

As you know, architecturally, it's beautiful.

I don't know what goes on inside.

I have no idea.

That sometimes is less beautiful.

I, I

grew up, I, you know, I grew up not believing politicians.

I grew up in a, in a, in Soviet Union where there is, there's

a wall between reality and what they're trying to tell us.

Right?

Right.

And we, we, we, we learned not to take their awards for granted.

You know, so I guess that's become part of my DNA and I'm always very mistrustful of

Yeah, I'm right there with you.

Trust

everywhere in the world.

It doesn't have to be my home, but everywhere else.

Right.

So I, I'm with the people, basically.

With the people.

That

might be the name of the episode.

Yeah,

right.

I'm with the people, but she's also with the butterflies.

And with the butterflies.

The team aspect was, was something like a big learning curve.

And another thing is I was in the film, I was directing the film.

And also producing, because I, I raised all the funding for the film, so it was

all these new roles that I've never kind of, I mean, aspects of it, I guess as

a photographer, as, as you know, all of us, we're all hassling for funding.

We all right, have personal projects, ideas and passion projects that we need

to raise funds for so that those skills, that skillset like that came in handy.

Writing proposals and things like that,

I'm, I'm curious about whenever I see a personal film, I am always.

I, I'm really curious about the conversations that happen around it.

Mm-hmm.

So your dad is no longer with us, and the film is, in a way, a daughter's

journey to find her dad and connect with him in a, in a new way.

Yeah.

But what did your mom think?

Well, yeah, that's a good question.

At first, she was quite resistant to the idea of the film because,

you know, for many years she kept certain things hidden from me.

Because she wanted to protect me from certain information, certain

knowledge that she didn't, she thought might hurt me, right about my father,

about her and about their life.

So when I decided to make a film, she was, she had that sort of

fear that is gonna stir up some things that she wanted hidden.

So she was resistant to the idea, but in the process of the film, she opened up.

Hmm.

And that took about three years.

Right.

And many conversations, and many interviews, many conversations

off camera, not just on camera, but me and her talking off camera.

Sure.

Trying to make her feel more at ease with the whole idea of

coming forward with the story.

And I think the end result was she felt like her.

I think in the end, that burden of secrecy has been lifted from her chest.

Yeah.

And she felt a lot lighter.

The

truth, she'll make you free.

Something like that, I guess so.

I don't think she regrets being part of it.

I think she's proud of it.

She's been telling me how proud she's, she watched the film,

she liked the film very much.

All her relatives have seen the film and called her and gushed about it, so.

Wow.

She felt

happy.

Yeah.

Did it

give her a new appreciation for your dad?

Like was she able to maybe not for dad, see him?

Maybe not playing.

Hang on, hang on.

That is a, oh, I

love that.

That is a guy wearing a cowboy hat and playing guitar.

Playing guitar, writing a bike, a bicycle.

I know.

What was that slogan?

Make Austin weird again.

Take a picture.

Go take a picture.

Sorry, I Go ahead.

Go,

go talk to him.

We'll wait back here.

Yeah.

Okay.

I, but I took a video of you playing, sir, you're so wonderful.

You can do a few loop down there.

Or, or, I'm from Azerbaijan.

Yes.

Let's do, let's do a selfie first.

Yes sir. Yes ma'am.

Abaza.

Exactly.

I'm the first one, right?

Yes.

That's nice.

That's amazing.

That's why I like Austin.

Yeah.

It's lots of weirdos around here.

Ain the, but it's wonderful.

Enjoy the day.

Sure.

All right.

We're fair using this.

I see all the way.

see you Wakes lightness.

I see that.

That's so amazing.

Picking and pedaling,

picking and bedding.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

You're wonderful.

Well, we're getting back towards your hotel.

You're flying out today, but you're sneaking in a

barbecue lunch before you go.

I am.

So you've been doing Texas, right?

Yes.

Uh, I did Texas Sori yesterday.

I went to the White Horse.

Yes.

I loved watching people dance in the

music.

One of our best spots, what is it?

Honky Don?

Honky Don Honky Don, I loved it so much

because this is your first time in Austin.

Yes.

I'm dying to just hear your overall impressions of our city.

Well, look, it's funny because I had a friend when I was 19 who was from Austin.

And he was telling me all these amazing things about Austin and

how wonderful it was, how cool.

And all the coffee shops and jazz music and bars and, and the whole vibe.

Right.

So I've always had this kind of impression of Austin, of being a very special place.

Yeah.

And it was, it kind of had, the magic was already implanted in me.

And when I came, I did see it, and I know he's, he's still here.

And he complain, complains that it's been taken out.

It's

changed, it's all over here.

It's changed and

gentrified and this and that.

But I, I still got to see, you know, that's right.

Snippets of it.

And, and I, it's okay.

It's enough for me.

You know, I, I, I don't have a sense of perspective.

I don't know what it was like before.

I just have an idea, but it didn't disappoint.

I have to say.

I mean, I, I had most amazing food.

The people are incredible and I think what, what makes a city is the people.

And, you know, watching these kids dance, like young kids, a lot of them were

queer young kids dance in cowboy boots.

It's like.

Honkytonk Texan music.

I thought they keeping this culture alive.

That's very cool.

And Austin's always been a place where cultures converge.

That's the thing that makes it unique because that makes beautiful, the

hippies and the rednecks get together.

Exactly.

And appreciate the same music and was,

yeah.

There was this 60 plus guy with a huge cowboy hat dancing with his lady.

And then these, like these queer kids dancing around him and they all danced

really well, the two step thing.

And yeah, and it was just wonderful to watch, you know?

And, and I think I've been exposed to some of that magic, Austin magic here.

And, uh, you made some

good pictures while you were here.

Did I

was taking lots of iPhone pictures.

I didn't bring my, my,

you bring the rollie,

my big rollie because I only had hand luggage and it just like,

then you have to bring film.

It's a whole thing.

It's a whole

operation.

And I knew that I'd be busy.

In the festival and not have enough time.

You know,

let me jump to the other, back to the other side of the world because as much

as I'm curious about, and I'm thrilled that you had a good time and a good

experience here in Austin for the festival and yeah, and your time here, but it's

not every day that we get a chance to, to talk to somebody who kind of grew up.

Surrounded by political upheaval.

Yes.

And lived through the fall of the Soviet Union, have been living and working in a

country that's been an active conflict.

Yep.

With its neighbor.

Yep.

For most of your life.

Most of my life

actually.

And what have you learned living in, in kind of a war torn culture that you

feel like impacts your storytelling?

Patience.

I think patience, because often you have to spend a lot of time

waiting for things to, to happen.

You know, if people think of war as something very active

and happening all night.

Kinetic.

Yeah.

And

kinetic, but it's not, it's waiting for access.

You don't get access to places.

You have to wait, you have to go through hoops.

You have to go, you know, talk to this commander or this, uh, government

official, or that, like for me, in order for me to, to come to

Armenia, because I'm from Azerbaijan.

Right.

So Armenia is basically, we are, we're calling each other enemies, right?

So in order for me to come to Armenia with a butterfly net and a camera,

I had to ask for permission from the Armenian Ministry of Defense.

Wow.

The State Security, the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

So that took months of negotiating access.

I landed in the airport and the policemen took me inside into the

room to interrogate, what are you doing in Armenia or Azerbaijani?

So, um, so all these things.

So patience is one.

Being, but that, that applies not to just conflict, but in general to photography

and storytelling is being non-judgmental.

Mm-hmm.

I think if you, if you start judging, if you start taking sides in the

conflict and applying your own judgment, then you become partisan.

And I, as a journalist, we learn not to be partisan.

We will learn to be observers.

Right, right.

Very neutral observer.

So neutrality is very important.

How

do you, how do you apply that kind of neutrality?

When you're discovering hidden secrets within your own family

that challenge your very identity?

Well, I mean, I had to apply a lot of nut neutrality towards my father because

some of the things he did, I should judge him for it in the film, but I didn't.

I didn't judge him.

I let the others speak about him.

I expressed my feelings maybe, but it wasn't judgment, you know, I

let the character kind of unfold.

You know, without me really pushing it down your throat.

Another thing about my father was you only see pictures of him because there's no,

he died and I don't have any video footage of him, so he, he's almost like a ghost.

He has like that ghosty presence in the film.

I really let it to the, let it out for the audience to make judgment,

and that's always been true to my own work as a documentary photographer.

I don't make judgements.

I don't put captions that will form opinions.

Yeah.

I will inform the public, but I will not tell them how to sing.

Is there a time, because it's a personal story when you put the

camera down or you walk outta the edit room, or you walk outta the theater

now that the credits have rolled.

Yeah.

And you allow yourself to put that neutrality aside and, and feel

like the full spectrum of, of, of your own experience or, I mean

that, I don't think that neutrality necessarily precludes you from feeling

like you can still feel emotions.

You can still feel things.

But you could, you, you just have to try and be open-minded.

I think that's maybe what I mean by neutral.

You have to be open-minded.

Like, like there is, there was a moment in the film where I interviewed a soldier

from Armenia, from who fought in Urba and, and we're sitting in the graveyard

where his mates died and, you know, and who died in the war were buried.

And he, he's a soldier sitting next to me and Azerbaijani Zer, Baja soldiers.

Mm. You know, killed his mates in the war.

Yeah.

So I'm his enemy.

Right.

Three.

And he sits there and he tells me both sides have suffered and he's Right.

Right.

That's what happens in the war.

Right.

You know, both sides suffer.

I feel like we in our country could learn a lot from what you're saying about

being less judgmental and more curious,

more curious, more open-minded.

Uh, I think that goes a long way in the, kind of, in the line of work that we do.

Yeah.

You know?

Wow.

' cause when we start forming opinions, we stop being kind of journalists, you know,

in that, in that sense of documentarians.

Where, where is your sense of self in terms of being a journalist or an artist?

Are you both, are you one with the other?

I see.

I'm both.

I see it as both.

I think the line is very blurry.

Between the two.

What do you think makes them different?

Uh, artists and journalists?

Yeah.

Honestly, I mean, I think, I really think that it's very intermeshed now.

You see artists, you know, even painters or installation artists or sculptors.

The kind of works that, that really kind of keeps me engaged

is, is social commentaries.

When you see social commentary in, in art.

Right, right.

When it's not just aesthetic for aesthetic pleasure, but it's actually

has some kind of meaning to it.

So same for us.

I mean, as a journalist, I try to make pictures that evoke emotion.

Right.

They tend to be aesthetically compelling, you know?

Hmm.

So you're doing that while also telling a story?

Yeah.

I'm definitely aware of how I compose my images and what.

What sensations they can vote.

So let's wrap up with what we like to refer to as the speed round.

Yes.

Okay.

We're not always great at being speedy about it, but we're working on it.

I'm gonna mix it up a little bit and say, what is a movie that you have seen

recently that has really impacted you?

Oh my God.

Wow.

That's, that's that I need to, I need to really like remember

some of the last films I've seen.

Because we've been so reminded of this film in this, uh, festival here, 'cause of

the presence of the director Celine song's past lives and made a huge impact on me.

How she was able to portray the very deeply human emotions, but without,

without being grandiose about, but being humble about them, you know?

Yeah.

And that humility.

Really comes across in the film

Past lives.

In past lives.

Yeah.

So for me that was, that was very special.

What would your advice be to a young filmmaker just starting out?

Well, I'm a young film maker.

I'm the old young film filmmaker that's starting out stay true to your,

uh, to yourself rather than trying to pander to whatever is in demand.

I think staying true to yourself, to the story.

Mm-hmm.

Stick to the story.

Stories matter.

You know, you have to nail down the story aspect of it.

Yeah.

I think that's the most important you.

You see sometimes films that are beautifully shot have a great

cast, but the story is not nailed.

I think focusing on the story aspect is the number one thing

that you have to do as a filming.

You know, you have no idea how many Dialings I had to kill

just to keep the story intact.

You have the beautiful footage, you have this and this scene, but that

scene will take you out of the story.

Sorry that you know you can't have it.

Right.

Yeah.

So be brutal.

Tell us, darlings,

tell us about an Eastern European classic that we should be aware of.

Oh, a film that really spoke to you when you were coming up.

Either a dock or, or a film that really captured Oh yeah.

Honey Land.

I don't know if it's just in European.

yeah, we've seen that.

That's

beautiful.

Honey

Land is amazing.

That is, I love that film.

It's about a beekeeper.

It's

beautifully.

Photographs.

I'm drawn, photographed to stories.

I'm drawn to quieter stories like that.

There's no.

Sort of like crazy drama happening.

It's not like, you know, one of those gripping tales.

Yeah.

But I, I, I really, I'm drawn to, I get hypnotized by stories like this.

That makes sense as a photographer that you'd love that film because it

is so gorgeous.

It's

very beautiful.

Yeah.

It's beautifully shot

when a wrapping it up.

I know that, uh, searching for satis is searching for distribution,

searching very, very much searching.

So people are gonna check this podcast out.

Yeah.

And they are.

Going to fall in love with you and they're gonna fall in love with this story.

Wanna know?

I hope so.

Wanna know the story of your dad?

Wanna know the story of these butterflies?

How can they find your film?

Either out in the festival world or how can they support you on social media or,

well, I have an Instagram account.

It's at Rena Fend my name, Rena Fend Photo.

So they can find me on Instagram.

All the information about the film is gonna be on Instagram

is constantly being updated.

And do you have festivals lined up or, or screenings coming up?

Uh, so

we do have a, a couple of festivals in Europe, but we're not allowed

to, to announce yet because they haven't been publicly announced.

So,

secrets.

Secrets.

Secrets and Secrets.

This is all.

We've

had a great time here.

So far.

Oh, that's great.

Well, thank you so much for giving us your time.

Thank you.

And making this beautiful film and, uh, looking at

butterflies with us this morning.

Thank you so much.

That that was one that was the highlight.

Yeah, it was another highlight, just another one, the bar yesterday and the

butterflies and being with you guys.

So that was Rena.

That was Rena Afendi.

She was fantastic.

I really admired just how clear she was and I feel like I learned a lot.

From an artist who has been through a lot of heavy things in her life,

and it was really cool to hear her perspective on that and to still be so

clear and so positive at the same time.

And that carries across in the film, you know, like she's a

photographer who's digging into her own family history while meanwhile.

Hiking to the top of 10,000 foot plus peak of a mountain to go search for

these very special butterflies that only literally live for a handful of days.

Wow.

Once a year.

Wow.

And she's got a Roloflex camera in her hand the whole time she's doing it.

So she's making great pictures, she's making the people she's talking to,

comfortable and she's experiencing her own story as it unfolds.

Wow.

And I just really enjoyed the film.

The Austin Film Festival jury did too.

She was awarded the Grand Prize, but like so many great films out there right

now, this is a film without distribution.

And so I don't know when you guys are gonna get a chance to see it,

but I, I hope it's not too long and I hope National Geographic steps

up and takes it for their channel.

They, they funded it, but not through the streaming platforms mechanism, through

the National Geographic Society, which is,

that's confusing.

Yeah.

'cause it seems like a perfect fit

for, for them.

So let's hope that it finds distribution very soon and I

follow her on Instagram and

yeah, check out her work, check out her photography and, and

the work of her collaborators.

I just feel really grateful.

That a filmmaker from Istanbul came all the way to Austin to share her film

and that we got to take her on this

walk.

cool.

Yeah, this is, and that the butterfly

showed up.

And the strumming cowboy who's riding his bike at the same

time, picking and peddling.

This is a really good episode and thank you guys for listening and, uh,

sticking with us next time on Doc Walks.

It's a doc with a walker.

In Ben Steiner, but not with this Walker.

'cause I can't make this one.

That's right.

And so I'm gonna take a walk with Pat Hefe, who is the director

of the new Charlie Crockett concert film slash documentary.

And as a huge Charlie Crockett fan, I'm very much looking forward to this and

hearing Pat tell stories about that.

So his film is $10 Cowboy.

Charlie Crockett is a Texan.

Croner

singer songwriter, who's really experiencing like a whole new

wave of popularity right now.

So I'm really excited to get, to spend time with Pat and to learn

more about Charlie and well, I'm

excited to check out that episode.

Thanks Ben, for putting that together, and thank you, pat.

Pat.

Well,

I'm carrying the load around here as usual Keith, but I'm happy to do it.

Yeah, Ben's been carrying a load.

All right.

Thank you guys for walking with us and for listening and uh, we'll see you next time.

Doc Walks

is produced.

Directed and edited by this guy Ben Steinhower.

Hello.

And my friend Keith Maitland

of Go Valley.

And we have help from, well, we couldn't do it without Dayton

Thompson, our co-producer.

That's right.

And we also have people behind us at The Bear and over at Go Valley backing us

up and making sure that, that we get to bring these episodes to you every week.

We hope that you will comment and join the conversation, like, subscribe, do all

the things, tell all your friends, send recommendations on filmmakers to walk to.

If you're a filmmaker and you wanna go on a walk.

Hit us up.

Let's do it.

We'd love it.

Alright.

Thank you guys.

We'll see you next time.

Next time.

We'll catch you on the train.

Next time on Doc Walks one foot in front of the other.

Stop talking.