EP029 – What Should We Call This Episode? w/ Chelsea Hernandez

11.06.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 29

We’ve been trying to book this walk with director Chelsea Hernandez for weeks, but she’s just too-busy city-hopping for the PBS music doc-series to hit the trail with us—until now. Chelsea is an Emmy-nominated director, a part of the Brown Girls Doc Mafia, and a great friend!

On a return from a recent shoot in Puerto Rico for CITY OF SONGS, Chelsea found that her living room ceiling had collapsed, turning her life upside down… rather than get down about it, she took it as a sign from the universe. Time to move!

And time, finally, to get moving with us—thru the Boggy Creek Greenbelt in East Austin—on a winding walk & talk through her career. Starting with her early days (at age 9) hosting her own Martha Stewart-style kids show (99 episodes!)—then assistant editing for Ellen Siro and editing for Mario Troncoso—all the way to making her own feature doc. We get the scoop, with a focus on casting BUILDING THE AMERICAN DREAM, her feature debut about undocumented construction workers that’s still painfully relevant today. And she breaks down the approach to co-directing (with Heather Courtney and Princess A. Hairston) for 2023’s BREAKING THE NEWS—a doc that Keith EP’d and Episode 3 guest Diane Quon produced. She makes a compelling case for why three directors may be better than one.

Like many, Chelsea is caught-up in today’s anti-PBS culture war, outlining how the Trump administration just killed her ITVS-funded film (“the movie Trump doesn’t want you to see”). But she’s happy to make the case for why PBS matters. It’s not just art—it’s jobs, community, and the lifeblood of democracy. Plus: why spending time in people’s kitchens beats journalism, that time she worked for the Beto campaign, and how many baseballs are in Ben’s minivan.

Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Guest Announcement 01:00 Chelsea’s Roof Collapse Story 02:00 Walking the St. David’s Community Garden 03:30 Child Star Origins – Kids Ideas TV Show 06:00 Transition from Broadcasting to Documentary 08:00 City of Songs and Traveling for PBS 10:00 CPB Funding Cuts and Trump’s Impact 13:00 Building the American Dream Origins 16:00 Casting Real People – Finding Your Protagonists 20:00 Workers Defense Project and Building Trust 24:00 The Fat Mouse Encounter 26:00 Journalism vs. Documentary – Learning to Take Sides 30:00 Breaking the News – Three Directors, Three Perspectives 36:00 Co-Directing Challenges and Triumphs 40:00 Gateway Drug Film – To Be and To Have 42:00 Dream Collaborator Ethan Hawke 43:00 Immigration Raids and Current Work 45:00 Future Projects – Asylum Seekers School and Ruben Ramos 47:00 Baseball Count and Episode Title

Alright, so Keith, today, today we are talking to Chelsea Hernandez,

my pal Chelsea Hernandez is finally coming on the show.

Yes, we've tried to get her a few times, which we have had to reschedule

because she is in production.

She is in hardcore production where she is traipsing around the globe

on a PBS show called City of Songs.

I'm jealous to be honest with you.

I'm, I'm very jealous.

It's a, it's a neat project.

But Chelsea is a director, she's an editor, she's a

producer and a good friend.

And I think you guys are gonna like this one.

Awesome.

So stay tuned and

enjoy.

Chelsea Hernandez

on your lap.

You're listening to Doc Walks with Ben and Keith

High five each other.

1, 2, 3, marker.

Second sticks.

That's Ben's culture.

It works.

Couple of high fiving white guys and Chelsea Hernandez.

Ooh, that, is that already the episode title?

Definitely not.

That's definitely not, that's a terrible word.

Yeah.

I think I'm your first, uh, Latina on your show.

Oh,

yeah.

That I was, I was scrolling through it.

I think that's actually, unless we missed someone, correct.

I mean, I

don't like to presume.

You might need to fact check it.

Yeah.

Well, we'll take a look.

You're probably right.

You're one of the people.

That I have imagined we would get too faster than this.

And yes, I have also tried to get too faster than this, but you

have said no.

This is a long time coming.

We, it is.

Chelsea.

No, multiple times.

Oh, you

know what?

Let's try this.

Yeah.

This is a fun little zone.

Yeah, we get that.

This look at that look

a garden too or something.

Okay.

So we are walking along the train tracks on this special, private,

mystical garden path with.

Ben Steinberger.

Hello, Keith Maitland.

And right here in the middle, Chelsea Hernandez.

Yay.

think I had it on the calendar for a month,

right?

That's yes, that's right.

Yes.

Yeah, well, did check in.

It's been

scheduled and rescheduled.

Yes.

A few times.

A few,

but that's only because she's in fucking hardcore production.

I was gonna say, that's a good thing.

That's a good problem to have.

Yeah, for sure.

And also her roof collapsed.

Yes.

Ooh, I saw their picture.

That was wild.

It was so weird.

Tell

us that story.

I was coming back from Puerto Rico for filming with City of Songs and just

opened my door and the ceiling of my living room was totally on the floor.

I was having a weird feeling about this place and literally

the night before I left.

I sat underneath this crack in the ceiling.

I was like, I hope that doesn't fall on me.

Oh, and so You almost like manifested it.

Oh,

it's weird.

Yeah.

When it happened.

Yeah.

I, I do follow signs in the universe, like, and I was feeling

weird about this place, and I was like, all right, this is a sign.

It's time to go.

So I'm moving in a couple weeks.

Oh, that is so much better place.

Which I'm super excited about.

Well, we are walking on a gorgeous morning.

I mean it is, this is like the sweet spot in Austin's weather.

It's mid-October.

We've got like a sunny morning, but no clouds in the sky.

Look how blue this sky is.

Yeah.

I'm not dripping with sweat.

And then take a look over here.

You might recall this beautiful community garden.

Yeah, that's so pretty.

Uh, the St. David's Community Garden, we featured prominently in the

Reed Harkness episode of Do Walks.

Oh,

nice.

Okay.

Which

means there is a portal over there, but that's Reed's portal,

so don't try and go through it.

Chelsea,

also, that was another door that was the episode where Portlander Reed Harkness

goes through the portal down to the creek.

Kicks his shoes off and just hops right in.

And I remember going,

wow.

Like internally.

I was like, oh, I don't know if that's a great idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he

was having such a great time.

I wasn't gonna yuck his yum.

Alright, listen, uh, long time, uh, viewers of.

Doc walks will notice I There's jump in

the creek, by the way.

Oh, all right.

Thank you.

know the bacteria that's in there and I'm gonna save my feet.

I know Reed's Portos.

I don't want to know what's going on.

The base to panel.

Yeah.

That's different than Reed's portal, Reed's, Portos, all that said.

Chelsea Hernandez.

Long time Austinite, like way back, long time Austinite.

Yeah.

I, I grew up here.

Child Star?

Yes.

On local television.

Oh, I don't know about this.

Yeah, you didn't know that one.

It's, it's, uh, a trivia point on my IMDB page.

I don't know who put that.

There

wasn't me.

Chelsea is a, is a friend, she is a collaborator.

We've gotten the chance to work together a few times and, and she's somebody whose

career has really just kind of grown.

With each step in the 10 or so years almost that I've known her.

Known you.

Yeah.

It's been about 10 years.

Yeah.

Um, and

you've been a big mentor of mine too.

Well,

I just like to think of us as pals.

Yeah.

Wait, I wanna know about the Child Star situation.

What?

What did you star in as a child?

Well, I hosted my own television show.

No way For

half my childhood.

yes.

Actually I got recognized in Berlin It was so weird.

In Berlin.

Yeah.

We were meeting up with a host friend and she was like, I know you.

And I was like, did you live in Austin?

She's like, yes.

She was like, were you on tv?

And I was like, yes.

It was so random.

What was the name of the show?

It was called Kids Ideas and it was like a Martha Stewart show, but for kids.

So I was a host and I made crafts and I cooked and traveled around Texas and it

started at the Public Access Channel.

Okay.

Where Awesome Public is now.

Which we are probably gonna walk past on this walk.

Yeah, I

was gonna say, yeah.

This is the, the hood, and I did, I started when I was eight years old.

Did that till I was 17, have 99 episodes

and so wait at eight years old, is this your idea or is this your parents' idea?

Um, my, it was a collaboration with my mom.

My mom had a craft show.

This was like back in the nineties and crafts were like a big thing.

Okay.

Actually that's when Martha Stewart, I think was

Crafts are still a big thing to me.

Yeah.

Where Crafting family.

That's awesome.

I love it.

She had a craft show and she was learning how to.

She was taking all these producing classes and camera classes and

learning the equipment and learning how to edit, you know, tape to tape.

And I was like, well, I wanna be in front of the camera.

And so she was like, okay.

And we came up with this show together and it started on access

and we got a lot of publicity.

And then we were on the W-B-N-N-B-C affiliates here.

After Anna Maniacs, um, oh, look at you on Saturday mornings.

Yeah.

Well, that's

a, that's an interesting career trajectory because most people

who are in documentary filmmaking.

Never have aspirations of being in front of the camera.

Right.

Until they start a podcast

anyway.

Yeah.

Well, prison company certainly excluded.

Yeah.

But Bob, talk to me about that transition.

Like how did that

Totally,

yeah.

How did that happen for you?

I think what happened is I went to college and I thought I was gonna go into

broadcast journalism because I was like, oh, I've been in front of the camera.

I interview people.

I'm gonna do where we splitting the pole?

I guess so.

Oh, that's bad love.

Yeah, that bad.

Oh no, we have to do that a fair amount with, on this show.

So I don't know, maybe that's, maybe that's why you're luck.

Maybe we're cursed.

Oh no.

Yeah.

Gotta redo that.

Well, you believe in signs, so let's look for for good signs.

A good sign.

Good sign.

Yeah.

I thought I was gonna go into broadcast journalism and be a news anchor.

Oh, okay.

And I realized I wasn't.

Like witty enough to be on camera.

Here we go.

You know, like you have to have a lot of,

you gotta be quick on your feet, you

gotta be quick.

Yeah.

And so I just, I didn't like how fast you had to be and like just be on your

toes and front of the camera and I was like, okay, I'm not gonna do this.

But I met a group of like documentary filmmakers and that's when I was like,

oh this.

So you're still in college when you meet this group?

Yes.

Okay.

And where did you meet that?

I met them here in Austin.

I worked with one of them and they were all from like Southern

Illinois University and making stuff.

The Salu stuff.

Yeah.

And then that's when I was like, what are documentaries?

And thought this is what I wanna do.

'cause I like interviewing people and I like learning about people

and spending time with people also.

And then that's when I, yeah, just started.

I just wanna not, I just wanna interject.

I really hope you are going to provide us with a link to some footage.

I have seen footage of Chelsea.

It is adorable.

And the most adorable part about it is, I'm not surprised you were recognized.

She looks exactly the same.

Same, exactly.

Okay.

This is when you cut in a photo

of me.

Yeah.

put it next to me.

Yeah.

Bens getting all directory.

Ben's getting directory folks.

Lemme

frame you on the right here and then we will put, I'll

pretend this is my microphone.

A picture of young Chelsea right here.

Awesome.

Okay,

nice.

Got

it.

Chelsea, you mentioned, uh, we'll work backwards in time here.

You mentioned.

Getting back from Puerto Rico recently?

Yes.

'cause you're working on a, on a series called City of Songs.

Yeah.

So City of Songs is a music traveling show on PBS directed by Mario Tso and

hosted by Stephanie Hunt of Buffalo Hunt.

And she travels the world trying to find the sound of the city.

And so she immerses in the artists, the music and art

culture and yeah, we just travel.

Around the world.

So went to Puerto Rico for season two, went to Puerto Rico, went to Berlin.

I'll be leaving in Mexico City in a couple weeks.

Wow.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Tokyo.

And so this is a, this is a broadcast series for PBS?

Yes.

Hour long episodes.

Half hour, half hour,

half hour

episodes.

National Feed, broad Coast episode.

Yep.

You can watch season one on pbs.org.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

Are you guys affected by the CPB cuts

for City of Songs?

No, but I was affected on another film.

That I'm producing with an emerging filmmaker in New York,

and we had gotten ITBS open call.

Yep.

And we got the news of the open call.

We bought it the day Trump signed the executive order.

Oh.

So we were waiting.

They pulled it back.

Yeah.

So the defunding of CPP

defunding of Chelsea and her friend defunding.

Yeah.

So now we're saying our movie is the movie Trump doesn't want you to see.

That's right.

Try as he miked.

Kidding.

Trump cannot keep us down.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Wow.

That that was a real, real bummer.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

That's tough.

'cause you judging from your filmography, you've done a lot of work.

Yeah.

That's really how I got my start.

My first like real job, I worked with Ellen Spiro and Karen Bernstein.

On a show called Fixing the Future for National

PBS.

Sure.

I remember that.

I think I was in grad school and uh, Ellen Spiro was one of my

professors while she was making

it.

Yeah, yeah.

She was my professor.

I just graduated and she just like threw me in the edit room and in the

field, and it was the best thing for me.

I learned the whole PBF system and met people, and then

I worked for Hector Golan.

Oh, what role is that?

Yeah.

Worked with Hector Golan and then I worked with Mario.

TSO on Arts and Context as an editor and did some producing

on that, on that show also.

And I always love that show.

That's one of the things I love about PBS and the work that's created at

the, at the affiliate level around the country is Arts and Context is,

is like one of those shows that served the mandate of PBS and like bringing.

Smaller unknown stories to the surface for the community to kind of see itself.

But at the same time, it was shooting, it was like shooting

way above its weight class.

Like that show.

Yeah.

Could have been a national show.

Totally.

Like it was so well made.

Yeah.

It was so well directed and it was so well edited and so when I first met Chelsea

and realized that she was the editor on that show, it was just, you know, you

started off with my full esteem because.

You and Mario make a great team.

Yeah.

It's cool that you have the team back together now on City of Songs on this.

Totally.

Yeah.

And I'm, I bet some of the, some of the approaches and some of the language

and grammar that you created together on arts and context is baked into

what you're doing on City of Songs.

Yeah, I think so.

For sure.

I mean, it's just so nice to work with someone you've been working

with for a long time because now you have like the same language.

He doesn't, and Mario doesn't even have to say much, but I already

like know what he's talking about.

Yeah.

And can help him, you know, make his vision to reality, you know,

so it's just really comfortable and fun working with him.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Can I ask you a big question?

Are you ready for this?

This is like a, this is, I

dunno, where we go when we die.

Okay.

All right.

Second question.

Mm-hmm.

It's in the news.

Everybody's feeling on some level, the crunch of cutting

funding that is happening.

Yeah.

Make the case, if you will, for why PBS.

Is important and should be funded But

I mean, it's part of the economy.

I, I was figuring out like how much CPB has like supported me and my work, but

also my community and I've hired like over a hundred people over the past few years.

Like I've been able to provide jobs, you know, and I think

that's really meaningful.

Mm-hmm.

And we just have this whole like.

There's this whole ecosystem of independent documentary filmmaking that's

not on Netflix, that's like not on Hulu, but they're in the community actually.

Like doing work, engaging with people.

Inspiring.

Who are these people?

People, citizens.

You know, anyone like there's audience out there.

Audiences out there like watching our stuff.

I guess it's like community engagement that is, is lost

and Art does so much to help.

People change their minds to understand things, to be inspired, and, and we're,

we're gonna lose a lot of that, so

mm-hmm.

At the time when we need it now, more than ever.

Yeah.

Right.

We were talking off camera as we were getting going about how young people

are, are basically watching YouTube or watching TikTok feeds, and we're,

we're all more and more drawn into our private worlds of our phones Yeah.

And so having a sense of community and.

Uh, city or civic pride.

Yeah.

All those things feel like they're, they're starting

to slip away a little bit.

Yeah.

And like one thing too is like people will say like, well, you

know, you can still make art.

You know, it, you can do it for free.

And it's like, no, like, this is my job.

You know, like, I need to pay my bills.

Right.

Stuff, you know?

Right.

And as much as there's like.

Stuff I can do on the side, like passion projects and stuff that

maybe I don't have funding for.

Like ultimately my job is creating art, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And people need to be paid for that, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

So.

Ben sold.

He's gonna, he's pitching in.

Okay.

Yeah.

But you know, also, I will say I went to school in New York for a

couple years and I had come back to Austin where I finished out at et.

And during that time I went to South by and saw eyes and me.

Oh, at South by Southwest.

Tell, tell.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, this guy is like, based in Austin.

Like how cool.

Because I was coming from New York where I worked at DCTV and actually

kind of dropped out of school 'cause I was like, I'm working in documentary,

like I don't need to go to school.

But I was really bummed when I came back to Austin 'cause I

was like, there's nothing here.

Like, what am I gonna do here?

But seeing eyes of me was really inspiring 'cause I was like, oh, this guy.

Like lives here and made this movie.

And then that's when I noticed the ITVS logo.

Yeah.

Also.

And I was like, okay, wait, what's ITVS Like I need to learn about this.

So that was really inspirational.

Seeing PBS stuff does.

Inspiring work.

Tell me more about this eyes of me.

What is that enough about me?

What do you think about?

No, but I appreciate, I really appreciate you saying that and I know we're all a

part of a continuum and that's the thing I love most about, like the community

of filmmakers and, and honestly like why Ben and I are doing this podcast

is like tapping into that continuum and recognizing, you know, you saw.

The first film that I made and saw that ITVS logo.

And that spoke to you and kind of pushed you in a direction?

Yeah.

We recently had Bradley Beasley on the thing.

Bradley, who reminded me, I intern for him.

Well, there you go.

Yeah.

Well, Bradley's one of the people who pointed me to ITVS.

Oh, you know.

Awesome.

Um, and then you mentioned, you know Hector Golan.

Yeah.

You know, talking about continuum.

Hector Golan is, is the

god Latino godfather of PBS, the Latino Ken Burns.

And, and, and Austin's kind of like sole documentarian it seems

like, you know, going back.

40 years.

Yeah.

You know, I don't, I don't know who else was around in the

eighties making, making Right.

You know, PBS docs.

Yeah.

Um, Owen too.

Yeah.

On a long time.

And so, you know, and undoubtedly there are, there are filmmakers that

are coming up that are seeing your work, you know, that are inspired by

you and the work that you are doing.

Yeah.

You're, are you, are you a member of the Brown Girls Doc Mafia?

Yes.

Um, yeah, I was a member before it became like a big network.

Yeah.

I heard this.

I don't know

what this is.

Tell us what that,

okay.

Brown Girls Doc Mafia is a network of bipoc women, filmmakers,

women, non-binary, um, people.

And I think I heard about it from.

Pam Aguilar who used to work at PBS.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, what is this?

Like the name of it was scary.

It is a little like, yeah, it sounds like there's tattoos involved.

There might be a little tattoos.

Um, but it's just a network of people.

It's just a little DVX

100 right underneath your eye.

Oh my God.

A 23 9 8.

Yeah.

awesome.

Um, now it's grown.

They got Ford Foundation funding, like they've gotten more funding to support

this group, but they have panels.

They do, um, fellowships for filmmakers, but there's also now a whole

database of all the members online.

So if you are looking for.

Crew members in certain cities, wherever you can go there and like

reach out to people and contact them.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I do not know about the video consortia, is that what you called it?

Video

consortium.

Video consortium.

Yeah.

It is another kind of like database, uh, for like non-fiction

and maybe journalist stuff.

It's a great place to get gigs.

Uh, that's how I got the Beto, uh, gig.

Okay.

I worked for the Beto campaign in 2022 and saw a post.

On the video consortium, what was

your role there?

'cause that's a, you know, that's an interesting place where, you know, you're

a, your activism and filmmaking inver.

Yeah, it was

wild.

Like, because I've been so much in this like, kind of journalistic

space, you know, and now I was.

Making work where I'm like, oh, I can attack the other party.

I can make attack ads.

You

know, I was like, you know what's interesting about using that word

attack is that I, you know, our commercial production company, the bear.

Yeah, we did some work with Beto.

Right.

And they were always like, we're not gonna do that.

We're not gonna do that.

Yeah.

We're not.

And this was, I think the first campaign maybe.

Yeah.

When he was running for Senate,

when he was running for Senate.

Right.

And we put together a couple of things that Richard Link letter one that we did

was Sonny Carl Davis, the, come on Ted.

That went viral.

Come on

Ted.

Yeah.

And that one was so funny because it like poked at Ted Cruz for not being.

You know Texan enough.

Yeah.

And they wouldn't.

They wouldn't.

Oh, that's so interesting.

And we were always like, oh guys, come on.

Yeah, Becky.

Yeah, I understand.

Let's go for it.

Let's throw some funt.

I admire the high road.

And also I think you're losing out on some audience here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's so nice.

Like so nice, and maybe that's why you lost it.

You know who wants that?

I know.

Just a real genuine guy.

Your role with the campaign was what?

Um, so I think my official title was like videographer, editor, but I got hired

because they were looking for someone with like documentary experience mm-hmm.

Because their plan was to like create these kind of like doc

style profile like videos.

Mm-hmm.

So that's what was so exciting is like I got to go out and like

search for, you know, protagonists in a way and kind of like tell

their story and yeah, it was just.

It is incredible.

Just really fun work.

Well, what you're describing there actually gets to, uh, the one area that

I was really excited to get into when it came to building the American Dream.

So building the American Dream is your feature debut?

Yes.

A journalistic, but very personal expose of what it is to work in the unprotected

and like unmitigated disaster That is the Texas construction business.

Yeah.

When it comes to.

Undocumented workers and really just anybody who's on a, who's on

a, a construction site who is not covered by workers' compensation,

who is not supported, who is not treated fairly by like the mechanism

of kind of like development that Texas has really prides itself.

Well, the movie talks about how Texas is a draw for businesses

because it's unregulated.

Totally.

Yeah.

And so the people who oppose any type of regulation.

Do it for these like pro business reasons.

Right.

But your film is really interesting where you cast it so brilliantly.

We're in the kitchen with these people as they're cooking dinner and Yeah.

We're around their, their tables and we're, we're in these moments where

we really feel the gravity of those decisions.

Yeah.

And, and Ben's grabbing onto exactly what I, what I wanna ask about.

Yeah.

As you mentioned, you know, like in the Beto thing, you're excited

about going out and, and discovering.

Character finding subjects.

Yeah.

You're realizing who's a protagonist.

Totally.

And that's what really struck me about building the American dream,

because stories like that and subject matter documentaries like that mm-hmm.

Can be kind of scary, you know, the, the, the issue is so important, but how

do you humanize it and how do you bring the viewer into the, into the story.

Exactly.

Uh, and so I, that's what I wanna ask you about is like casting.

You're cast literally casting your net, right?

Yeah.

Like building up your subject Yeah.

Pool and, and, and finding folks, making a connection with them and deciding

on, you know, who makes the cut.

Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

You know, I think I. Um, just make sure to have some good conversations with people.

Yeah.

You know, like you can really understand someone with that interaction and how

comfortable they are talking, you know, so I just try to spend time with people.

I mean, for Billy American Dream, I filmed with more people, right.

But their story.

You know, their stories were very important, but for the purposes of a

film, there wasn't any sort of like journey I could follow, you know?

And I knew that wasn't gonna come up, or if it was, it's gonna be

years later, but I don't have

any time, so.

So you're looking for somebody who is trying to accomplish something

or who has like a big obstacle.

Coming up that they're, that you know you can film them down.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that was what was happening with all of my characters.

Now I kind of came in, not at the middle, but I wasn't there at the

very beginning of their battles.

But I knew I could make that out.

Um, and, and figure out how to tell that story easily.

But you're making shit up now.

I'm not making enough, but, um, I, I knew I could include that, you know?

Right.

But I wanted to be in the moment of them, like winning or, or losing, you know?

Right in that battle.

Can I tell you my favorite casting choice of yours for building our American dream?

I love the electrician woman and her husband's.

I'd been great.

Particularly because I was so fascinated to see.

As a woman, a, a lead electrician.

Mm-hmm.

And then the way that she talked about her husband and the way he talks about her,

she says this amazing thing where she's like, I had never seen a man come to work.

Yeah.

With vegetables in his bag.

Right.

Carrying vegetables.

And then she's like, and then he starts home, started cooking and he goes in

the kitchen and he starts making dinner.

I've never seen a man at

the

laundromat or at the laundromat.

I know that's right.

I was like, as a guy who loves to cook and do laundry, I was like, yes, I feel seen.

You heard it here first folks, Ben Steiner is a catch.

Oh my God, that's awesome.

Uh, those characters are the ones that SP spoke to me the most too.

Yeah.

And my question is like.

How do you find them?

Like, it's one thing to say like, oh, I get close to 'em.

I talk to 'em like, sure.

But like, how do you go from sitting at a desk at the local PBS station or in,

you know, in the room, in your house and you say, I wanna make this film.

Yeah.

To being invited into the kitchen to have that conversation.

Yeah.

Like where, where, where, where were they?

spend a lot of time building.

Yeah, with people so that I can go into their house and

become this fly on the wall.

Like with Claudia, the electrician, the morning of her ice check-in,

she didn't even realize I was there 'cause she was just ingrained with

like what was happening and her preparations in case she got deported.

So I'm like trying to get to that place where they forget

about me, but I go to where.

There's probably a community.

Yeah.

So in that regards, when I was doing research, I learned about the

Workers' Defense Project and was like, let me go and attend meetings.

They have these, um, gatherings weekly where people are talking about the

issues, but then they also do like role playing exercises to be like, you know,

what happens if you get pulled over and how do you talk to the police officer?

Blah, blah, blah.

So I would just like my

myself.

So what were, I'm sorry, what were these meetings?

Um, they, they call them, um.

Like Junta, I guess, at Workers' Defense Project.

Okay.

And so people who have complaints or issues or whatever, they can

go to these and get interviewed to possibly get a lawyer to help.

So, so Workers' Defense project is part of the backdrop of the film?

Yes.

Were they more forward facing, like when you were getting started, was that

like, I'm gonna align with these folks and kind of cast out of their pool or,

yeah.

I, I, I wanted to get to.

That group first to kind of understand what was happening, but then also connect

with people outside of it as well.

It was hard working with an undocumented community because

people are skeptical of the camera.

Right, of course.

And they don't know where to go.

So this was a place I really could build trust and people understood

the story I was trying to tell.

That's fascinating.

So you knew that that would be an obstacle for you finding character.

Yeah.

And so you needed to align yourself with a Trusted organization.

And I needed to tell people too that like the risks.

That they were going to carry being part of the film and

showing their face, because I didn't wanna blur people's faces.

And so I kind of had to choose people in that sense who were out

there already talking to camera.

So I think everybody was already used to like being in the news, you know?

Right.

But

no one had

really like.

Gone to the house or spent time with them.

So I kind of had to explain that to them of like, this isn't

me just doing a news story.

Um, this is me coming in and spending time with you over a couple years.

What, what did you learn as a filmmaker, you know, as a first time feature baker?

And that's when, you know, when we really got to know each other.

Yeah.

I remember we went and had tacos at Koba,

Uhhuh, Sam,

Ima picnic a table there.

Yeah.

And you kinda laid out your plans and we, we kind of spitballed around.

Where did you go, uh, as a personal journey from the beginning of

that film to the end of that film?

I think for me, you know, I was coming in from this sort of like journalism

world and so I thought I needed to show both sides and, and I do have this

other contractor that's in the film.

But what I realized was like it wasn't just black and white, like there wasn't

one evil person and um, oh my God.

What is that?

Oh my goodness.

Goodness.

Could

Is that a mouse or like It

was a really fat mouse if that was a mouse.

Did you get it, Ben?

I didn't, but it's right here.

Let's see if we don't spook it under.

Oh no,

I think he went underneath like, whoa, maybe.

Where are you?

Fat Mouse.

There might be snakes around here because they eat those.

Whatever they are.

Ginger stuff.

Was it a hedgehog?

Is that what that was?

It kind of looked like, no, it

wasn't a hedgehog.

I mean, it was tiny.

I don't know.

I think

was it a mout?

What was that?

Having a Marmite in the city, Len, that, that ain't legal either.

Um, so

all right.

But yeah, no, I, I realize I came to realize that I don't

have to show both sides what I'm.

What I'm doing is showing a piece of the story that hasn't been told, and

that's what I wanna like focus in on.

And because the subject was so big, like, yep, there's so many ways.

There was so much I left out, but I couldn't include it all, you know?

So I just tried to focus on the main pieces that were affecting

the families and also moments of like universality like you felt.

I saw that about that earlier and I almost picked it up and then

I was like, oh, dog s slobber.

Oh, yeah.

Over.

Oh,

yeah.

Well, it looks a little dried.

You have no idea how many baseballs I have in my minivan.

Just right now, my, my 2-year-old from picking

him up on the locks.

No, my, my, I play baseball on a team and then my 2-year-old son is

completely obsessed, so literally I have probably five baseballs in the mini.

I really thought it was

gonna be a much bigger number from that hole.

You have no idea.

They're, I don't actually know because they roll around every time I drive.

So my car just sounds like I was guessing like 143.

So, uh, so

five was a, somewhere,

it's somewhere between that number?

No, now it's either six or 144.

Okay.

I love hearing what you're, what you're saying as far as

like that realization, right?

Like, I don't need to be a peer journalist.

Like in my mind, documentary and journalism are not the same thing.

Yeah.

And I don't feel that that requirement.

Lemme ask you this follow up question.

That was your first feature.

What would you do differently today with that film?

I'm always curious like, yeah, the growth, like where have you gone?

Like if you were starting that project today, is there, is there anything

Yeah, you would, you would, you know, alter or, or take a different tack?

I'd shoot in 4K.

No, I probably wouldn't have shot as much to be honest.

I like just filmed everything and it was just way too much.

Yeah.

Footage.

Yeah.

I dunno what I would do differently.

I'm really proud of it.

Of course.

Yeah.

You should be.

Yeah.

It got nominated for an Emmy.

Cool.

That was exciting.

And like all great documentaries, it actually like, continues to be

relevant, you know, like I That's right.

I watched it Yeah.

In advance of our walk here and when she has to go check in with ICE and

is worried about being deported.

Yeah.

I was like, this is, this.

May as well be happening.

Yeah.

Like today or right now?

yeah.

We screened it on Labor Day at a FS Cinema and I hadn't seen the

film in a few years and it was, I think, really heavy on the audience.

Like I could feel the audience like feeling it also,

because it is still relevant.

It's been like 10 years.

Um, since I started shooting that film, and it's still,

still super important, sadly.

Yeah, but it's still there to hopefully make a difference with people.

Help them think differently.

No, that film has an evergreen quality.

That is an unfortunate evergreen quality because Texas no shows, no signs of

adjusting the inequity in that world.

Let's jump.

To, uh, to another feature.

Okay.

One that Ben and I both have personal connections to is breaking the news.

Yes.

To our co-director of, I am an executive producer on that film, although I

did very little in classic executive producer style, but I was glad.

You

bet.

Like monthly, I feel like.

Yeah, sure.

Isn't that pretty often,

but, well, I appreciate that.

You know, I didn't feel like, you know, I never went out in the field.

I never had a camera in my hand.

I was never in the edit room.

These are all the things that.

You know, I do on my projects since, uh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It was an easy assignment to hop on a monthly zoom call Yeah.

With people that I enjoy spending time with, with a subject matter

that feels exciting and fresh.

Yeah.

And unfolding in complicated and challenging ways that, you know,

like spur great storytelling.

Yeah.

And, and problem solving.

And so breaking the news and Ben has a personal connection to breaking the news.

Yep.

I'm, uh.

Very good friends with Emily Ramshaw.

Yes.

And David Hartstein and of course know you guys.

And so it was like, and know Heather and yeah.

So I was always rooting for that film and really fascinated.

I was just really impressed.

So, break breaking the news.

Let's,

let's give a quick rundown on what the film is.

Yeah.

So the film follows the 19th News, which is a, a news organization that.

Reports on politics and policy, but through the lens of gender and race.

And so we filmed them in the first three years of their startup, which was

during COVID, during lockdown, right?

In 2020 there was a presidential um, race.

There was the insurrection or like following the reporters all through

that pretty heavy political period.

And yeah, I was doing that and working in the Beto campaign.

Yeah.

Wow.

So how did you get involved?

How did this come about?

Um, Heather actually reached out to me.

Heather found the story and she, you know, had worked with David Hartstein,

who's Emily Rams, she's husband, and Emily is the CEO of of the 19th.

And she just had this idea and approached Emily about filming and I

think she was supposed to go down like.

During South by Southwest, and then the lockdown like was announced.

And so then she had to like think about the story in a different way.

'cause her whole idea for the story was, oh, we're gonna follow the 19th

in the field during the election.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Well that didn't happen because they weren't in the field.

COVID.

Heather was also inspired by the 19th, and the fact that like they have

a very inclusive, diverse group of people and she thought, well, maybe

the directing team should be that way.

Also,

I have to tell you, this is a conversation.

So Heather, I got involved in the project fairly early.

Heather kind of came and.

Pitched it and talked about it and initially I offered to be involved

as, as kind of a production services help, because Heather lives in LA

and the 19th is based here in Austin.

It felt like.

My wife Sarah, who shoots all of my projects Yeah.

Could be available.

And she's also an executive producer, could be available to

kind of grab a camera and, and get stuff locally if Heather needed it.

Yeah.

If they were interested, they could office out of our office.

They could edit out of our edit base.

Yeah.

You know, depending on where the project went.

Yeah.

And pretty shortly after Heather started pitching it around and,

and developing it further, she came to me and she said, I think.

I think I need a co-director and ex for exactly the reason that you

said, and I advised against it.

I'm just gonna be honest.

Really, I,

everyone did.

Keith was trying to talk you out of a job.

No, but I will say, yeah, no, she wasn't.

Guess what

done, John was pissed.

Chelsea's name was not in the mix yet.

As a matter of fact, Chelsea's name.

Came out of my mouth when I said, if you're going to talk to anybody,

you should be talking to Chelsea.

I wasn't the only one who recommended Chelsea.

You did.

So Keith credibly both.

I give and I take away and I give again.

Okay.

I'll give again.

No, but I was against the idea of co-directing because I have never done it.

Yeah.

And because I always view the role of the director above and beyond all the

different things the director can do.

Is a tie breaker.

Yeah.

Is a tie breaker between the editor, the producer, the subject,

the executive producers, you know?

Yeah.

Eventually somebody's gotta have a final say.

Totally.

And when it's, when it's two people, you know, how do you navigate that?

It was Megan Gilbride always says.

Codirectors only work if they're born of the same womb.

I highly disagree

with that.

Oh, right.

So, so brothers, that's why there's like siblings or sisters.

Yeah.

There's lots of, or brother, sisters, brother.

Yeah.

And

there are a lot of those combos for sure.

Um, but or a pair of non-binary siblings as somebody who has

Co-Directed on multiple projects.

I disagree with that.

Yeah.

In the same way that you play in a band and you figure it out and like true.

True filmmaking is already a team sport.

Yeah.

And I understand like the hierarchy is cleaner if there's one.

Yeah.

No, it's collaborative.

Yeah.

And so like as long as you're on the same page and you guys agree that the best idea

wins, well yeah, but that's the, I think

you have to remember that like the, the main goal that you all

have is the same thing, right?

It's just how to get there is different.

And I think that's what Megan is saying.

I can understand because like if you don't have experience working with

co-directors and you've been working as.

You know, as sole director for a while, it can be a little hard to like navigate.

Like you give up your vision a little bit, you know, so that

you can accommodate the other

compromise a bake day.

There's a lot of

compromise.

Compromise, yeah.

But guys, we make documentaries.

Our whole job is giving up our vision.

We have a vision.

We go into a story thinking, I'm gonna tell it this way.

This is the path I'm gonna go on.

And then the story tells you what it's true, right?

Yeah.

And so like, we're so used to like.

Doing that arithmetic.

Mm-hmm.

Doing that dance where we think it's one thing and actually it

reveals itself as the other.

And to me, that's the magic of what we do.

It's like this

continual life lesson.

Yeah.

But, but directing is not just story.

And I appreciate like what you're saying as far as like following the

narrative as it unfolds, that's for sure.

But when it comes to vision.

There's also aesthetic choices.

There's tone, there's pacing, there's music, there's, you know,

1 million decisions that A, that a director's ultimately responsible for.

Yeah.

And so I don't, I don't disagree that like a true documentarian

needs to be able to follow where the, the, the, the waters wash us.

Yeah.

Um, better afraid.

Yeah.

Ben was giving me shit the other day because he is realized

from editing these podcasts.

A lot of times I start talking before I know where I'm gonna end

up, which is a true documentarian.

Yeah.

It's allowing the waters to wash me.

You're

basically proving my point right now.

Do you wanna jump in the creek?

Uh, Ben wants to push me in the creek, but wash away.

So, so you, I'm breaking the news.

You are co-director with Heather.

But you guys didn't stop there and that's the point I was getting at.

No.

Is like you didn't, you weren't stuck with two people, you know, flipping a coin.

Right.

Which is, which is my concern.

Yeah.

You added a third director.

Yes, yes.

And to complicate things.

You had a third director who you guys didn't know very well

and we didn't meet each other, I think until like, maybe a year in or something

because we were all remote the age of COVID, and we were all over the country.

I was in Austin, Heather's in la and Princess is in New York.

Wow.

So talk about like a diversity, uh, in every possible way.

And the producer I, Diane Quan, who you had on your show also.

That's right.

Fantastic.

Diane, maybe my favorite, maybe my favorite guest.

And honestly, we did Diana real disservice.

Excellent.

Essentially we did Diana service.

We did our listeners a real disservice.

By only speaking to Diane for probably about 25 minutes.

Yeah.

Oh.

Uh, we need to get her back on the show days video.

That was when we were still doing it on audio.

Although how she

can come for South by, I don't think she's ever been to South by Southwest.

Alright.

But she's had films here, so, well, I think we're

planning to go to Sundance again this year.

Okay.

Maybe.

We'll, okay.

She'll, she'll

probably be there.

I'm

sure she'll be there.

So the film ends up,

yeah.

After three years of filming, 40 or 50 different potential subjects, 30 or

50 different potential subject matters because their reporters reporting on.

Life.

Yeah.

In every facet of society.

Yeah.

And three different directors.

Yeah.

Couple different editors over time and Diane.

Yeah.

I am really excited and proud of where that film ended up.

Same is a testament, I think, to what Ben's talking about

the power of collaboration.

Yes.

That all of what this disparate So many ideas, so many voices, so many.

Possibilities.

Yeah.

Ending up in a film that I know Lois Watson was very excited Yeah.

To put on independent lens.

Yeah.

How do you feel about that film now?

It's been a couple years since it came out.

Yeah.

I'm really proud of that film, like what we did during COVID and everyone

always says like, oh, it doesn't feel like a COVID film, you know?

And I'm really proud of that.

'cause we pushed really hard to make sure that was, it wasn't a

COVID film, but I think what I also learned from it, and I think.

Elli says this.

She's one of the reporters that we filmed.

Like the three director thing was really hard.

There was a lot of challenges, but at the end of the day, like someone's

lived experience is going to bring up different questions to other people's

lived experience, and I think we need to like remind ourselves about that.

And so there were things that like.

Heather brought up, or Princess brought up that maybe I didn't think about because

that wasn't my own like lived experience.

And I think by having all of us as the co-directors, we were able

to tap into different subject matters and bring up things that

I don't know if I could have done.

All by myself.

Yeah.

Is it?

It's an awesome movie.

Yeah.

And everybody should go watch it.

Yeah.

Amazon.

On Amazon.

Okay.

Yeah.

We are at the end of our walk.

Yeah.

And I want to ask you a couple lightning round questions.

Oh, no.

Okay.

All right.

So oranges number number one.

What was the film your gateway drug film that you saw that

made you think, I can do this.

I want to do this.

Oh, oh, this is my path.

You know what I think to be and to have.

Ooh,

tell me more.

I don't think I know that one.

The English teacher in

France.

It's one in France.

Yeah.

I mean, there was controversy behind that, but it's a one room skill rake.

Yeah.

Tell our listeners about, about the film.

Yeah, it's, it's just a verite documentary on a one room school room in rural France.

And there it's multi-generational.

Um, yeah, you just watch the kids.

I don't know.

It's lovely.

It's beautiful.

I had that film on V Yes.

Yeah.

What's the ver Yeah,

there was something about like, made me.

The teacher was asking for money from the filmmaker.

How dare she?

Yeah, something like that.

He, yeah.

Jerk.

Yeah.

Which I was like, just give it, give him your

backend.

I know.

By today's standards, that's like, yeah, yeah.

Because it was

suit then.

Yeah.

I think it was that movie.

I was like, that's what I wanna make.

I wanna make, make those kind of movies.

Yeah.

Okay.

Dream collaborator.

If you could collaborate with anyone, who would it be?

Collaborator.

Okay.

Well, I'm gonna go fiction by Ethan Hawk.

He's easy that do this to everything.

know.

I know.

It's

easy.

I, I feel it.

I feel it.

I'm manifesting now.

Tell me more.

Why Ethan?

Ethan.

I, he's

incredible.

I, I was an intern with Sandra Dare on for midnight.

Okay.

Yeah.

And, um, seeing the outtakes from him, like he is just an incredible

actor, like, just so amazing and I just love his passion.

Yeah.

He's just like, whatever project he jumps on, he's like so passionate about.

I think he did a doc on Paul Newman also.

He did.

I just wanna

shout out Sandra Adair, Oscar nominated editor of most of

Richard Linklater's films.

Sandra is like a superhero.

Yeah.

You should have her.

We should have her.

She, she, she was, she and she directed that incredible documentary.

Lance Lecher.

Yes.

That Santa America collage artist.

Yes.

She's great.

Um, I, I

love Sandra.

Yeah,

she's fantastic.

All

right, Sandra, if you're listening, we like for you to come on the show.

The third one is, what are you thinking about right now?

What is the thing that, like you can't stop.

Focusing on thinking about

the news.

So, yeah.

Say more.

Well, you know, I do work on a lot of films about the immigrant community, so,

um, seeing these ice raids and videos on what's happening is kind of on my mind.

Does it make you want to go pick up a camera and, and go after it?

It does and it doesn't.

Yeah, sure.

Um, I'm a little overwhelmed, but also I'm, I am, to be honest, a

little scared for my safety also.

And I've, I've, I have friends who have.

Had friends who were US citizens, like be picked up Oh.

And held like in detention for a few hours and then they didn't know what to do.

And all I could say was like, call the press.

Right?

Like talk to the press.

Yeah.

You know?

So Yeah.

And that's where I feel like my job is really important right now.

So yes, sometimes I do feel like I wanna pick up a camera

and follow at the same time.

It's really emotional.

I don't know if I. If I could do it, so, so I'm on a music

traveling show right now.

That's right.

What can you tell us that's coming down the pipe?

Um, what'll be the next.

Chelsea Hernandez joint that hits the scene.

Yeah.

Uh, well, it's not premiering, but there is a movie I'm working on about

a school for asylum seeking children.

I was curious

about that project.

Yeah.

So we're, this is the part, I don't know if it'll be public yet,

but we'll be pitching at Doc NYC.

Nice.

So we'll be there with that film.

So I'm really excited about that film and thinking about like the ice

raids and everything happening now.

Being part of that film allows me to bring my thoughts and emotions into that film.

I have another film called Abstract by Jayden Gosling in New York.

This is his feature debut about border technology and surveillance.

It's a fantastic, like essayistic film, um, in black and white.

And, and

there's also, I know, a, a music, A music doc you're making right now.

Oh, yes.

Oh yes.

I am

with our friend Luke Jacobs.

Yes.

With Luke Jacobs co-directing a film about Ruben Ramos.

And you can follow that.

You can go online.

I think it's elga negro film.com.

All right, let's wait.

Wait a second.

Before we go.

We are standing right by my minivan.

Okay.

Just so you don't think that Uhoh, here we go.

Talking out of

144 balls.

Rural.

Okay.

Everywhere.

All over my car.

One?

Well, there's two.

Oh, okay.

Two in there.

Oh, my son.

Ah.

My wife took my son to, oh, my wife have.

We always have a glove and multiple baseballs under

these suits, so, all right.

I've got two now.

I've got three.

Yeah, you got three.

Okay.

Thank you for helping Chelsea.

What should we call this episode?

Hey, what should we call this episode?

Should we call this episode Chelsea?

Chelsea Hernandez, I think this name.

Yeah.

And that.

Was Chelsea.

Was Chelsea

Hernandez.

Chelsea Hernandez.

It sure was.

I, uh, have known Chelsea's work and I have been friendly with her for many

years, but I've never had the chance to really talk with her, and I was

so glad she went on a walk with us.

She's a great filmmaker and.

She's always got opinions and ideas, and I have to tell you, she's one of

the people, she's not the only one, but she's one of the people that we've

had on this podcast that I have an organic walking doc relationship with.

Yeah.

You walk with other people.

I know you like to point this out as often as humanly possible.

Listen, I also walk with other people.

The Ben has friends that I have.

You don't me talking about how I'm going on all these other

walks.

No.

He loves to talk about baseball and teaching gt.

And being a great dad, I am just out here getting my steps and

complaining about the industry.

All right.

Guilty on all accounts.

Well, thank you guys for listening to Chelsea's episode.

Thank you to Chelsea for coming on and, uh, let's talk about next time

on Dock Walks.

Ben and I are walking with Rena Afendi.

She's a filmmaker from Azerbaijan, currently living in

Istanbul, traveling to Austin.

To present her film Searching for Satis.

This is a fun one that travels great distances, has some laughs,

and some beautiful butterflies too.

Once again, thanks for spending spending time

with us.

Thank you to Chelsea for coming out.

Yep, and thank you guys as always for listening.

We hope you enjoy and we'll see you on the next one.

Un talk walks.

Yeah.

Doc Walks is produced, directed, edited by me, Keith Maitland, and him Ben Steinhower

and co-producer Dayton Thompson.

We will catch you on the trail.

time on Doc Walks one foot in front of the other.

Stop talking.