EP024 – Golden Moments with Maureen Gosling
10.02.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 24
This one is pure gold! Join Ben on a solo walk with the legendary Maureen Gosling—a prolific documentary editor and director, and a longtime collaborator of Les Blank. Dig into the makings-of iconic films like SPROUT WINGS AND FLY, GAP-TOOTHED WOMEN and BURDEN OF DREAMS, and explore Maureen’s latest work, THE NINE LIVES OF BARBARA DANE. We dive deep into the fascinating twists and turns of Maureen’s career and her seamless transition from editor to director. Maureen inspires as she lays out the unique nature of her collaborative process—and there are ideas in here that we can all learn from. Don’t miss this golden stroll through documentary history with someone who’s lived it.
Discussion links:
THE BLUES ACCORDIN’ TO LIGHTNIN’ HOPKINS (1968)
A POEM IS A NAKED PERSON (1974)
IN HEAVEN THERE IS NO BEER? (1984)
THE NINE LIVES OF BARBARA DANE (2023)
00:00 Introduction and Guest Announcement
01:05 Maureen Gosling’s New Film
02:26 Les Blank: A Legendary Collaborator
05:25 Early Career and First Projects
11:15 Filmmaking Philosophy and Techniques
16:26 Transition to Directing
24:19 Challenges and Collaborations
26:31 The Nine Lives of Barbara Dane
27:08 Chris’s Annual Parties and Barbara Dane’s Musical Influence
27:50 Discovering Barbara Dane’s Legacy
28:59 Filming Barbara Dane’s Last Concert
30:24 Barbara Dane’s Son and His Life in Cuba
32:25 Raising Funds and Continuing the Documentary
36:38 Barbara Dane’s Impact and Final Years
39:31 Maureen’s Reflections on Her Career
44:14 The Importance of Documentaries
47:40 Upcoming Screenings and Live Music Events
49:13 Maureen’s Time in Austin and Final Thoughts
Hi guys.
Ben here.
Keith is in Los Angeles this week, and so it's just little old me, but I am
so thrilled about our guest this week.
It is Maureen Gosling, who was Les Blank's, longtime collaborator, sound
recordist, editor, co filmmaker.
She came to Austin to present a new film that she has made, and I got the chance to
walk and talk with her and pick her brain about making some of the most influential.
Documentaries that I have ever seen.
So I hope you guys enjoy this episode of Doc Walks.
As much as I enjoyed recording it
on your left,
you're listening to Doc Walks with Ben and
Keith.
Marker.
I just did a marker with Maureen Gosling.
I'm, I'm thrilled that you are giving us some time today to go on a dog walk.
Uhhuh, thank you so much for being here.
Why don't you tell our listeners what you're doing here in Austin?
Well, my new film is called The Nine Lives of Barbara Dane.
And it's about a jazz, blues folk singer, social justice activist
named Barbara Dane, who just passed away a year ago at the age of 97.
And it's gonna be screening at the Austin Film Society tonight.
Yeah.
I'm gonna moderate your post screening discussion tonight.
Great.
And I was so honored.
That Lars asked me to do it, but I'm even wearing a t-shirt from one of
the films that you made with Les Uhhuh Sprout Wings and Fly about Tommy Gerald.
Yes.
That's one of my all time favorites.
Aw, that's so great.
Yeah.
How does that feel to know that, um, you know, work that you made
probably when you were in your twenties, thirties is uh, yeah, I
guess 30, about 30 ish.
Yeah.
Wow.
Cool.
Uhhuh.
And to see that still out in the world and influencing people,
that must feel pretty great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
That's,
and that was the first film I edited from scratch,
really?
Sprout,
wings and Fly,
because I am so well versed in Les Blank.
And the work that you guys did together.
Why don't we start for our audience by you telling people who Les Blank was
and your relationship with him and I, I wanna preface this by saying I want
to hear your backstory too, but just because we're talking about the film that
you made with Les in my t-shirt, Uhhuh,
how
about you tell our audience who Les Blank was?
Well, Les was an amazing documentary filmmaker who.
We made a lot.
We made a lot of films about music.
Before I got involved, he had made a bunch of films.
Lightning was going Lightning Hopkins, spend it all about Cajuns.
When I joined up with him in about 72, the first film we did
together was Dry wood, not pepper.
The one about
Clifton Cheniere.
Yeah.
And Zy music.
Right.
I love that he wore a vest in that one that I remember.
That he would play the washboard.
Well, that he, that his
brother.
Oh, that was his
brother Cleveland.
Oh, yeah.
No, Clifton played the accordion and his brother played board.
Oh, okay.
Nobody has ever played the row board the way Cleveland did.
Yeah.
It was so mesmerizing to watch.
Yeah.
Anyway, that was the first film I worked with Les as an apprentice Really?
And I ended up working with him for 20 years.
We made a bunch of films together, which was fantastic.
Mostly music films, but not all.
Uh, we also did our best known film.
It was called Burden of Dreams.
Yes.
About about Werner Hertzog shooting his film, Fitzcarraldo.
In the Peruvian Amazon, in
the Peruvian jungle and you know, I have a signed Burden of Dreams poster,
ah, hanging right behind my desk that I see every day that Les signed
for me when I was an undergraduate at the University of Kansas.
Ah, I, I drove down to see him in Norman, Oklahoma, where they had the university
had brought him in to show his work.
And I got, because I had commuted his six hours to be there, the woman
who was hosting the event was like, well, do you want to drive him around?
And so I got to spend a really incredible 48 hours driving less around.
And he, uh, even watched a cut of my senior thesis documentary
and gave me some notes.
Good.
It was really fantastic.
Okay, so we established that Les Blank was this.
Sort of pioneering documentarian, who made these really interesting music films
where you guys would go and embed with people like Lightning and Hopkins you
mentioned, or Tommy Gerald, who's on the t-shirt I'm wearing, or Werner Herzog
while he's making a film in the jungle.
But I read that you went to the University of Michigan.
Yes.
Before you got.
Connected to Les.
Yeah.
And Les was in the Bay Area.
So how did you come to start working with Les?
He actually was in Hollywood at that point.
Oh, living
in Hollywood.
And I was at studying social anthropology and I ended up going to an anthropological
film festival at Temple University.
I got excited to realize that film and anthropology could go together
well, and I felt like I learned more about culture and people in three days
watching films than I did reading books.
And so Leslie's films were very unique there.
No narration.
Music and the editing was very unselfconscious and intuitive.
The cutting was very poetic, and so his films really stood out to me
and I got my nerve up to talk to him at a party just for a little bit.
We ended up corresponding and.
About nine months later, he needed an assistant.
So I ended up flying to Hollywood and suddenly I was not just
an assistant, which is what I thought I was gonna be doing.
I was a sound recordist.
Suddenly I had to carry around a
25 pound
tape recorder, Nagra in those days, a very heavy re a real recorder, right?
Yeah.
And so our first day of shooting was black French Mardi Gras in Louisiana, and I was
chasing after les chasing chickens, and I had to watch out for the cable between
us, the sink cable, to not trip over it.
And to carry the microphone.
And you're thinking, what did I get myself into?
Yeah.
Here, let's cross the street here and find some shade.
Yeah.
And then we can go through this community garden here.
Oh,
great.
And he was very laconic.
He didn't say much.
And so I didn't quite know how to deal with him for quite a while, even though
we were hanging out together all the time.
So he was like that because that was my experience with him.
Oh yeah.
Is he just basically didn't talk.
Yeah.
Yeah, and he would respond if you ask him direct questions, but it was
almost like the idea that you would, small talk was not gonna happen.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
So it wasn't easy and, but we were in Louisiana for three and a half
months altogether, which is very unusual these days, at least for
me, on trying to shoot a film.
Oh no.
That's very unusual to be.
Uh, embedded or on location.
Yeah.
Falling for that length of time is,
yeah.
Well we did go to New Orleans too after that, but Wow.
Still being in Louisiana and that's when I first met Mark swa.
Oh, right.
Page
and guy
of Mark and Ann.
Of Mark and Ann.
Right.
So how would you guys.
Get the funding to go and embed with musicians who aren't famous,
who are culturally fascinating and, and fantastic characters.
But it's not like the films you were making were necessarily like commercial.
So how, how would the funding happen?
Well, Les was good at, he actually, in those days, there were so
few filmmakers, he could write three grants and get to 'em.
Oh wow.
So he got some national endowment for the Arts funding for the Louisiana film.
Okay.
Redwood Hot Pepper.
And let's stop for one second.
I'm, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but this feels very less
blank and Marine Gosling to me.
Ah, look at this.
We are, we are in a community garden.
Yeah.
With a bench painted with bright, beautiful flowers.
Yeah.
And then there is a, this is the festival, beach food.
Forest, where it looks like the community garden leaves food out.
Uh, and also there's like a community bulletin board.
This feels like something straight out of.
On the films that you guys would've made, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is beautiful.
Yeah.
And it's nice that they're shade 'cause it
is.
They need a little, it is hot.
You are used to the Pacific Northwest and Yeah, we are still,
we're here in central Texas where it's summer mostly of the year.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You have a fantastic outfit on too, by the way.
Oh,
oh, thanks.
You know, I, one of the things that I so admire about the work
that you guys made is like them.
Is how colorful and playful and fun Yeah.
The films are.
Yeah.
And it really transmitted how it.
Must have felt to be at those house parties.
Yes.
And in those kitchens where the people are cooking and in the dance halls,
like in heaven there is no beer.
That's why we drink it here.
The joy of all the dancers and it just radiates off the screen.
Mm-hmm.
Can you talk a little bit about like how you guys achieved
that, that tone, that feeling?
Well, I mean we, we just.
We're there and did not impose ourselves on people.
Les never, he was not one of those aggressive TV guys that goes in and
kind of tells everybody what to do.
And you know, we just really we're there.
And Les was always looking for what he called the golden moments.
And those were the moments of.
Human expression, you know, anytime that people were interacting with each
other non-verbally, you could tell what was going on and he would capture that.
He would look for that.
Mm.
And so part of it was his eye.
And then the editing, you cut out anything that's not, that's not natural.
Okay.
To get
rid of the superficial, I mean the self-conscious stuff.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
So the not, and there's,
there's bound to be that, you know, people get.
Self-conscious in front of the camera.
Right.
And you know, a whole interview might get cut out because the person was
just self-conscious because we were always looking for the most authentic
expression of the people we were with.
And, you know, it was, it was love.
Yeah.
I mean, I've been so fortunate to make films about people that I
care about or that I fall in love with them when I'm making the film.
Yeah.
You know, like Barbara Dane, right?
She was like a second mother almost,
or an auntie.
I, so I was gonna, I, I wanted to build up to ask you about that.
Sure.
How you 'cause it, the, your new film, the Nine Lives of Barbara Dane, that you're
here to show at Austin Film Society feels like a culmination of that work that I
know so well that you did with Les Uhhuh.
And it's very interesting because in the film.
You're celebrating Barbara Dane, who is somebody that I was not aware of
and I can't believe I didn't know her name right, but she is going on tour in
her late eighties, early nineties when you film with her and it feels like a
culmination of her whole artistic life.
Uhhuh coming to be on screen.
And so it was interesting that it almost felt like that was.
Uh, your culmination as a director and her culmination as a subject,
did you, did you see it that way?
Yes.
Yes.
And the one thing that's an important point, very interesting, is that with
less, we never did overtly political films, even though the films you
could say had messages that were very, maybe progressive or, you know, just
the way we were relating to people.
Yeah, because you were filming people who were not, a lot of people
were probably going into Clifton Cheney's house or, or Lightning
Hopkins Home or Man's Lipson's Farm.
You know, you guys were, were really going there and embedding with people.
Yeah.
And what it does, those films, because they don't have a
time mark for what's going on.
In the country, they sort of have transcended time because they're,
they're experiential rather than, you know, historical or factual or whatever.
Oh, that's such a great way to say it.
Yeah, they're experiential.
I'd never quite thought of it that way.
And that's so on the money, 'cause you really do feel like you're there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So with the Barbara film, I, um, in the, in the early.
Two thousands.
I started working with this guy named Jed Rife, and he was a social
justice and political filmmaker.
The first film I edited for him, it's called Waiting to
Inhale about Medical Marijuana.
Oh, I saw that in your filmography.
Yeah, I haven't seen that one.
Yeah.
So with him I started to do much more political, overtly political stuff.
Okay.
You know, social justice work, so.
I was the Barbara Dane film.
That influence is there as well.
Sure.
And I mean I'm, I hope that it's sort of a combination of the good
stuff from working with Les and the good stuff with working with Jed.
Oh.
Plus my own interest in promoting women.
Right.
Women's stories.
Right.
And the first film I directed with this other woman, Ellen Osborne, was
on these women in Southern Oaxaca, the zPo text of Hutan Oaxaca, who have
a reputation of being a matriarch.
Oh wow.
And so that was a very significant film for me.
So let's, let's talk about the transition from being les's sound recordist and
editor to you directing your first film.
How did, how did that come about?
Well, we were, we ended up working together for 20 years, Les and
I, and I don't know at what point I started to feel like I'm not
moving up the ladder in this job.
He was sort of slowing down himself a bit and.
I mean he, whenever I would always get my interest up again, whenever
the new film idea would come out.
Mm, then I would say, oh, I have to do this.
This bike rider coming right here,
Morgan, I'm gonna have to do this.
Even though I was sort of feeling ready to move on a little bit.
But I also didn't know how to move on, you know?
I mean, we did incredible scoff and
Yeah.
And Les was full of surprises all the time.
And so, you know, and it's, he was my family and the people around him.
Right.
And my
family.
So.
Right.
Gimme an example, if you would, gimme an example of how he would come
up with an idea that would get you excited, that felt like a surprise.
Well, I mean, gap two's women, I mean, I
love that one.
It's so good.
I mean, that's just too, too fun.
So for, for people who are listening who don't know what that is, how
would you describe Gap Tooth Women.
And let's, why don't we go sit in this bench right here.
Look how fantastic this looks.
Yep.
Look at this.
Wow.
Maybe not the prettiest right in front of us, but that section
over there is pretty nice.
Okay.
So Gap Tooth Women.
So for those, uh, people who are listening who may not have seen that film, tell
people what Gap Gap Tooth Women was about.
Well,
it was about women who had spaces between their teeth, and Les had always,
he, he had admitted at a certain point that he'd always been fascinated by.
Got to to women.
That was his From the wives of Bath.
Yeah.
And the Canterbury Tales.
In Canterbury
Tales, right?
Yes.
He.
He always had this one question, are they as even more sexually sexualized than
other women if you have cap in your teeth?
He was curious about that.
Yeah.
And so, you know, and, and that comes from Chaucer, I remember that part.
And the Canterbury Tales.
Yeah.
Where women with a gap are supposed to be a little more lusty or Yeah.
Adventurous and Yeah.
Right.
Brassy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Liz, she, I think she was his girlfriend at the time, not, they
weren't married yet, we're Simon.
She was a little nervous about trying to make a film about Gap Two's,
women and Lu's attitude about it.
And so she and our, our assistant, Susan Kel and I sort of got together and
ganged up on us and said, you know what?
We can, this can really be a film, a film about women's.
Self-image Oh.
Rather than just some fantasy of some guide.
Right.
He is lucky to have had you guys, because Yes.
That could have backfired.
Yes.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, so Susan especially was fantastic interview that a woman and we, you
know, did a, a, a casting call and found all these wonderful people
and, and then filmed a bunch of them.
And then, you know, usually listless films are we, we didn't
do very many interviews, right?
Yes.
But this one was pure interviewer.
Yeah.
But with stuff in between, of course, you know, images of the women
when they were little funny songs.
Yeah.
Mythology.
And I remember murals, there's like, you guys found some
murals that I think was right.
There was
one of the women was a muralist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so beautiful images.
And one of 'em was a truck driver and one of them was a belly
dancer and a cartoon artist.
And.
And so all of that's in there.
It's a half hour film.
Yeah.
But it's very charming.
It really
is.
It's totally charming.
Well, and that's another interesting thing.
The lengths of those movies are so interesting, Uhhuh.
'cause they're not commercial it by any stretch.
They weren't, you know, the standard 56, 40 hour for PBS.
Mm-hmm.
They were oftentimes like 40 minutes long.
Right.
So like they're, they're longer than short films, but shorter than feature films.
Yeah.
Although we did do some loans, but anyway, they're, they're, but those,
the length they're that they're supposed to be is how we always said.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah.
But doesn't that by nature make it so that the distribution is harder,
so that you guys would have to go around and physically show the movies?
Like you don't, you'd almost have to like tour with them.
Well, Les was one of the original.
DYI guys in the seventies.
Mm-hmm.
He realized that nobody knew how to distribute his films.
He tried.
With regular distributors, educational distributors, they didn't know
what to do with lightning hop.
Right.
He would get a $40 royalty at the end of the year.
Yeah.
So he said, I guess I'm just gonna have to do this myself.
Mm-hmm.
And he did.
And he just, it really worked.
I mean it, you know, it took time to build up his nailing list, but he just was.
It's still in good shape now.
Yeah.
I mean, after all these years, even though we also are our Criterion
collection, and he was, he was the first filmmaker to put films on VHS
when VHS was the thing, you know, I
remember I, I sent off for some of those and bought them
in the mail from flower films.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So you do that with Les.
You are his, you started as his assistant.
You quickly become the sound recordist.
Then you become the his editor and you guys worked together
for 20 years, you said,
right?
Wow.
And so I was also a co filmmaker.
Yes.
And that doesn't always get acknowledged as maybe sort of like a co-director.
Yeah.
Right.
And so it's been tricky with Burden of Dreams, you know?
Mm. Even though it's filmed by Les Blank with Maureen Gosling, the with
Maureen Gosling often gets left off.
So it's kind of that's, that's tough.
Yeah.
You
know, and film history is full of those types of partnerships.
You know, I'm thinking about like Scorsese with his longtime editor,
thumb a Shoemaker, and mm-hmm.
Even here in Austin, Rick Linkletter and Sandra Adair, you know, have worked
together their whole careers and.
It's hard to imagine one without the other.
Mm-hmm.
But it is also hard not to notice that it's the men who get the right, who
are the ones that, whose names we know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How, how do you feel about that?
Or is that,
well, it's been, you know, it's been a little challenging, shall we say.
Yeah.
I mean, I always felt.
I got the credit that I wanted on the film itself because I
would, I would lobby for that.
Yeah.
With him.
And then, but then that isn't necessarily what gets remembered
or acknowledged or whatever.
Right.
You know, like Gap Tooth Women was made by Les Blank.
Maureen does, and Chris Simon and Susan Kell, you know, and Juul s
Del Met song was made by Chris Ritz.
Or Gosling, west Blank and Guillermo Hernandez.
Mm. You know?
Right.
So anyway, one could have a long discussion just of that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I, I'm not digging for dirt, just so much, just like Yeah, sure.
Wondering how that like in informed your directing and your choice
to go out on your own and Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that was maybe part of it.
Yeah.
Sure.
And then I started off with another woman directing.
Los Angeles Fire, which is the one in Mexico, and she kind of bailed
on me even though she started it.
Oh no.
Um, and she kind of bailed because she was so depressed by how hard this raise money.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, oh my God, how can I do this by myself?
Right.
And I sort of did.
And finished it.
And I said, well, I guess I can call it that.
It's my film.
Yeah.
You know, and I, but I always give her credit, Ellen Osborne
for being co-director with me.
And when we shot the film, it was totally equal and
Right.
You
know, it's her idea originally.
And, but it opened this whole chapter for me in my life.
It's, you know, part of my identity.
Right.
And I really.
Took it to heart and, um, hopefully I'm working on a, a restoration on that film.
Oh.
So maybe, maybe it'll we'll be able to get it down here.
Yeah.
That's great.
Plus of choir.
Oh yeah.
Love it.
Yeah.
It's, it's really a fun film too.
It sounds like you are like the consummate collaborator, like you, that was kind of
your role with Les and then it mm-hmm.
You know, I, I'm, I apologize, I haven't seen Blossoms of Fire, but
it sounds like you started as a
mm-hmm.
Collaborator that.
Then became the director?
Like, are you, are you more comfortable in some ways in the
sort of collaborator team mode than,
yeah, and I think most films are teamwork and they don't necessarily
get acknowledged as that, right?
Because it's, there's a lot of work and people have their different strength.
Like Ellen was great at, she didn't mind making plain reservations, you
know, and doing budgets, which I hate.
Right.
And I went and did the research.
You know, I read the books and took the notes and Yeah.
You know, and Jed is, is, he's the budget guy, plus he's sort of the overview guy
and the, the one that makes sure we're.
Covering X or, yeah.
And sometimes he directs his films and then I edit his films.
But
I was gonna say, his producer, you sound like a director.
You're doing the creative work.
And they are doing the planning, which is the producer's role.
Mm-hmm.
So for those of our audience who haven't seen the film, tell us about
the Nine Lives of Barbara Dane.
Well, I knew who Barbara Dane was because she was a good friend of Chris Rockow.
Okay.
Our Huie record.
Who was my good friend for many, many years.
And, and Chris and Les shared an office, is that right?
For Shared a long time, shared
We office in the same building.
In the
same building.
Okay.
Downhill music, our Hulu records.
Yeah.
Flower films, Les Blank films.
And a lot of those artists that you guys made films about Were
on our Hulu right label, correct?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So Chris every year had two parties.
One 4th of July, which was two days away from his birthday, so
it was celebrating his birthday and Uncle Sam and then Christmas.
Okay.
And Barbara Dane used to come to all of parties.
And she always jammed with the blues musicians that were there.
'cause there were all these musicians that would come to the
party and just jam with each other.
And I just, she was really cool to listen to and I was a little intimidated by
her 'cause she was sort of, you know, tough woman, but nice and friendly.
But I didn't really know anything about her.
I just liked her, her singing and her music.
And then her daughter was looking for somebody to cut a promo.
For her new album that she did when she turned 89 years old.
That's fantastic.
And so when I, I edited this little promo piece and it was like, oh my
God, she worked with Lily Armstrong.
Oh my God.
She was mentor by Pete Seeger.
Oh my God.
You know,
all
this stuff was like, yeah.
Muddy What mud.
Willie Dixon, like, yeah.
Just couldn't believe all the names that were in there.
Yeah.
And working with Jane Fonda and, and Bob Dylan and yeah, she was like, like that
Woody Allen movie zealot Al. Where she was just like involved in every movement
Yeah.
Of her time.
She was, yeah.
And she wasn't self-promoting.
Right.
And so that's why we probably don't know about her very
much.
This sounds familiar, Maureen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's kind of why you make these films.
It's like people say, well, I don't know who that is.
She's not a celebrity, so.
You know, we don't want you in our film festival, which has
happened too many times, but Right.
The whole point is that you need to know about her.
And that's the, it's like filling in women's history.
Yeah.
American women's history.
So anyway, she had a, uh, CD release event at Yoshi's Jazz Club in Oakland.
And it was sort of like, we probably should film this.
Maybe this will be her last concert.
You know, she's 89 years old.
Right.
For God's sake.
Right.
Well, Jen, then Jen got involved 'cause her daughter had been looking for somebody
to direct the film about it for years.
And, and I was like, I, I don't know if I could do this by myself.
And as soon as Jen got interested, it was like.
Okay, I can do this and I'll be the director and he can be the
producer.
Right.
I'll have a film part.
I've got somebody to make the budgets and the land reservation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he was excited and he, he got totally turned onto her.
Yep.
So we shot the Yoshis in, in Oakland, and that was the beginning of the film.
Wow.
So it was sort of like, okay, here we go.
Yeah.
You know,
little did you know that she would be touring, what,
five years later, even like.
Right.
She, well, more like little bit over the next two years.
Two years.
Okay.
Two years.
Okay.
Yeah.
Anyway, one of my wonderful funders ended up giving us enough money that we could
go to Cuba with her and her daughter and wait for the plane to go over.
Oh, the consummate professional.
That's right.
Uhhuh sound.
Oh, it's a sound
he,
yeah.
Anyway, Barbara's son lives in Cuba.
And he's lived there since he was 14 years old.
She took him there.
She went back home, told her son about it.
He says, I know this music school you could go to.
What do you think?
Would you like to go?
And he actually, he was 14.
14. And he actually, that's mind blowing.
Yep.
He, he was sort of like, he'd already done the hippie thing even though he was 14.
Right.
'cause he was hanging out with.
His parents who were pretty, you know,
steeped in the hippie thing.
Yeah.
And his sister, who was a total, you know, and so he said.
Well, let's, let's do something different.
And so he ended up going and that's when she dropped him off and left it.
Okay.
That, and he didn't know Spanish that, and she left her kid in Cuba
for a year.
Right.
And he's 14.
Yeah.
And then they, I loved how it evolves from there, which of
course he gets a girlfriend.
Right.
And decides to stay in Cuba.
And the photos of he and his then wife.
Sort of growing up in Cuba are just amazing.
Yeah.
Like what a cool mom and also what an unbelievable leap of faith to leave your
child, essentially with Fidel Castro.
Right?
Yeah.
So he fell in love with the place, and his birth name was
Paul, named after Paul Robeson.
Okay.
But his, his father's name was Menendez because his father was half Spanish.
And so when he went to Cuba, he became Pablo.
Pablo Menendez.
And he became a band leader of a band called Mela, which means mixture.
And he always believed in, you know, he was al, he had all the progressive
ideas in his mom and working with people of different backgrounds.
And so he always has black people in his bands and Asian
people in his bands, you know?
Ah, what an amazing movie.
So, okay, so you made, so you meet Barbara Dane, you realize
she's going on this tour.
At 89, you have to film it.
Mm-hmm.
You film that first concert and then where do you go from there?
Like how do you raise the funding?
How do you conceive of where the story needs to go?
Well, we just started kind of, you know, we knew we needed to
interview her and, and some of the people around her, so we did that
and her daughter was in charge of.
The Barbara Dane Legacy Project and the Barbara Dane archived, and so she has
an incredible collection that she's, she started when she was probably in
her teens of photographs and tapes and posters and letters and record.
I mean, just this incredible archive of stuff that we had
access to most of the time that she was like on tv, like she was.
With Louis Armstrong on a show, and she had her own shows that she was on.
She was with folk musicians, she was blues musicians.
And uh, she was interviewed at LA at the Ashgrove coffee house Yes.
Talking about beatniks and Yes.
How they're sort of not all there.
Right, right.
It was so cute.
It was so cute.
And then she ended up in like an Alfred Hitchcock presents, right?
Yeah.
She just, wow.
She skipped like a stone through all these amazing cultural.
Moments.
Mm-hmm.
And it was one of those things that I, after watching the film, I just, I
was inspired and also couldn't believe that I had never heard her name before.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she got the Chambers brothers on the road.
Oh.
Who deserved their own documentary.
Those guys Yeah.
Are incredible characters.
Yeah.
And they remained friends there, his own lives and, and.
Sadly, we lost two of the guys that we filmed.
Oh.
Only one of the brothers has left this amazing guy, Willie.
Yeah.
Chambers.
He's he's hips guy ever.
So charming and wonderful and got to hang out with them and they were still alive.
Wow.
And filmed them performing with her and.
They give her credit for Jumpstarting her career.
Amazing way back in the sixties and, and we did interview Jane Fonda
on Earth.
God, who looks phenomenal.
Couldn't believe it.
You've lit her so well and her interview's just so pretty.
Yeah.
And she really was mentored by Barbara and Irwin.
Interesting
politically.
Yeah.
She says that, yeah, that she was intimidated by Barbara and I'm gonna
mentor her to have a strong woman.
Who was basically kind of showing her how to be an activist, right?
Yeah.
And
she stayed with Barbara er Irwin in New York sometimes.
And Wow.
Barbara's got letters from her that she wrote to them.
Incredible.
Yeah.
So, oh man.
Jane Fonda is part of the reason she's doing what she's doing now
is is Barbara Dan influenced them.
It's kind of interesting.
Well, what do you think?
Should we walk back?
Should we, should we stroll?
I guess we could sort of walk back, back way the way we did.
I know.
It's so nice to Yeah.
Let's get, let's get one more shot of our view.
Oh, sure.
Do you want to, uh, here you do the honors as director, you, you, uh,
shoot what looks interesting to you.
So what did you learn from spending the time that you did with Barbara Dane?
Well, how inspiring it can be to, well, well, a biggie is.
The richness of what our elders have in their lives and what they have to say.
Yes.
And it's good to talk to them and learn from them and get insight from them.
And it's also possible to be.
Young and hard and an activist till you the day you die, which she was.
She did medical aid and dying, which is legal in California.
Wow.
She did,
so she chose the day she would die and took a potion and was there
and had her family around her and.
Wow.
Yeah.
Illegal in California, which just can be really good.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, she really hung in there for the longest time, partly
because for her daughter who was also dealing with terminal cancer.
Oh no.
Nina was our executive producer.
Incredible.
Person and absolute supporter of her mother, absolute
best friend of her mother.
They were so close and
she had these goals with the Barbara Dane Legacy Project to put the
concerts on, get her mom's book out.
Get a film made and she did all of it.
Wow.
Barbara did her book, it's called, this Bell, still Rings My Life of Defiance in
the Song, and Nina helped her do that.
If you like the film, you get all the the juicy details when you read Barbara's book
and then just.
Getting the archive, trying to get the archive placed somewhere that
still is, has yet to be to happen.
But it's incredible archive.
Yeah.
And
sadly, Nina just passed away literally about two months ago.
Oh no.
Yeah.
At about age 67.
It was, she was a, also, besides being her mother's best friend and
promoter, she was a promoter of Flamenco
author.
Yes.
Yes.
Let's go this way.
I, that was one of my main takeaways from the film was that she was such
an inspired and inspiring presence.
And the influence that she had on her children's lives.
Uhhuh was so interesting to observe because they all became these
like pioneering artistic people, Uhhuh, uh, that it was really
beautiful to see that direct like sort of transfer of creative power.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
Yep.
So true.
Well, so, you know, you make this beautiful portrait of an artist
looking back on their career.
Now that you are 75 and you're still working and making work, but you're also
showing films and looking back on your career to some point, how, how do you
think about your career at this point?
Well, I'm slowing down a bit, uh, taking on big other big films to edit.
And I'm trying to get all my own films into good shape.
Mm-hmm.
And make sure that they have some distribution too.
It's like Blossoms of Fire has been outta distribution for quite a long time.
I'm trying to get my films in shape and I'm open to editing shorts.
Oh, okay.
So I've edited, there's this wonderful group.
In the Bay Area called, and they're a Mexican American cultural organization
that is absolutely prolific.
They teach their kids in their classes how to play musical instruments and perform.
Wow.
And then they have their own group called Los and, and they're, you know, good
buds with Taj Mahal and David Hidalgo from Los Lobos and Linda Ronstadt and.
Jackson Brown, and so I recently edited a short for them where Hajj
Mahal and David Algo are visiting.
Their, their center.
Oh, cool.
And so they perform, talk to the kids, and the kids perform
and they perform with the kids.
Wow.
So how awesome.
So
basically you're still working, you're, yeah.
You're as vibrant as ever and still making films about musicians and
communities that are inspirational, that, that matter to you.
That's, that's awesome.
Well, in a big job that I have right now is getting this film out in the world.
Right.
And.
We feel like it's a really important time for this film because
Barbara is very inspirational.
For anyone who is an activist right now wondering, how can I do this?
I'm too tired.
This is too hard.
I give up too many, too many rough things going on in the world.
I can't do it.
She kept going and going and going.
And was right now might be feeling tired, depressed.
I'm too, I have to give up.
This is too hard.
Barbara kept doing it no matter what.
I mean, you saw her marching in union rallies in Detroit when she was 18, and
then being in the civil rights movement, and then being in the feminist movement.
And then working with gis.
And then, and then.
And then, and then, and she just kept going.
Right.
And you know.
Even when she was sitting in her La-Z-Boy chair and couldn't even
move, she would turn on any news that was about, oh, Palestinian March.
Oh, you know, right.
She was totally up to date on everything.
And anyway, just someone who's inspiring for now and she's kind of a badass.
She's not like this, you know, prim and proper little old lady.
She's a tough.
Cookie.
Yes,
absolutely.
This was
fun, funny, and got great stories and so we also were hoping that young
people will be a kick out of her and realize what some of these old folks.
I have to say Oh, and how inspiring they are and how cool they are.
Well, I feel that same way about you and the work that, that you've made.
I, I'm sincere watching those less blank films for me as an undergraduate at
the University of Kansas, not knowing another documentary filmmaker just
filled me full of hope and inspiration and joy, and just a belief that.
That medium was important, and it was something that I
wanted to spend my life making.
Oh, so I, I thank you for that, and I also am thrilled that you're still out
there introducing audiences to inspiring people that, that we didn't know about.
Um, so we're, we're coming up on your.
Airbnb.
Mm-hmm.
Here.
So I wanted to ask you, you know, this is a, a podcast specifically
about documentary filmmaking.
Mm-hmm.
And we hope that young directors listen to this and get inspired the way, I was
just saying that your films have done for me Uhhuh, and so I wonder if you
would just talk a little bit about like why, why documentaries matter, why you
have spent your life creating them and
Yeah.
Well, there's so many stories that haven't been told, especially in mass media.
And documentary filmmakers really are doing it pretty incredible.
I mean, there's some incredible documentaries out there.
There's some terrible ones too, mind you, we have to wade through.
But the one thing, especially now, is that there's fewer newspapers.
Media has become more homogenized and corporatized and the documentary
filmmakers really are filling in the gap.
Hmm, of investigative journalism in so many cases, it takes
time to do a documentary.
You know, when they're good, the director really and the
team really do their homework.
And so the good ones are very powerful, very important.
And of course, right now with all the funding being taken away from.
Corporation for public broadcasting and all these other places, it's
gonna be harder, but the medium is also more democratized because you
can make a video in your cell phone.
Right.
A decent film, you know?
I mean, look what we're doing now.
Like these, yeah.
This is good enough quality that you could show this in a
movie theater and it would work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's kind of a mixed bag right now.
Yeah.
There's all these, there's more documentary filmmakers,
there's better ones, and.
Now the funding's drying up.
Right?
And so we have to be very creative and it's really hard, and we
don't know what's gonna happen.
I mean, PBS actually surprisingly, is probably gonna survive because it
wasn't just dependent on CPB funding,
right?
They had their own local sources.
Mm-hmm.
And
resources.
So that's really helpful.
When it's diversified.
Right.
Diversification is like an important concept to get Exactly.
Exactly.
In just about every part of your life.
Yes.
If you think that way, you're gonna do a lot better.
Yeah.
That's good advice.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we
didn't get the chance to cover?
Oh.
I don't know.
I guess keep watch for Women's History month next year
here.
Maureen, actually, stop right there and back up just a little bit if you would.
Oh yeah.
This bush, if you would stand right here.
Let me just get a shot of you.
Sure.
This feels very apropos for maybe one of our final.
Final moments here together again, the, the colors and the, the focusing on the
flowers and uhhuh, that was something that you and Ted so well in your film.
So this is such a treat.
Oh, I was asking if there's anything that, um, you wanted to talk about that
we didn't get the chance to discuss?
Oh, dear.
Showing the film in different cities right now.
Okay.
And like we have something set up in Chicago for October 5th.
We've got Ashland, Oregon on the 11th of October.
Oakland, November 5th, and we're working on theaters in dc, Albuquerque,
Santa Fe, salt Lake, Portland, a bunch of other places, Austin.
So it's, in a way, it's back to your roots.
It's how, it's how you and Les used to do it in the old days.
Right.
And the other thing that we're trying to do is when possible live music with
a concert, with a concert, with a film.
Yeah.
And.
We've had that so far.
We're calling it Women's Rebel Voices and we're trying to find
younger women singers who have social change content in their lyrics,
right.
To be
part of the screening, to bring up the contemporary connection between
Barbara Dane and the singer and.
Inspiration for what's going on now.
So is there a website or somewhere?
Oh yeah.
People can Can follow your progress?
Yes.
Yes.
Barbara Dane film.com.
Well, I think with that, people will be able to find you and it's a beautiful
film and I again, just thank you so much for, for making such inspirational,
colorful, poetic, and joyful work and putting that out in the world.
'cause it definitely makes ripples and it, it inspired me for sure.
I'm so grateful to you for doing that.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I'm happy to be in Austin.
I lived here for a few years in the, in the seventies.
You did?
I did.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
What, what brought you to Austin?
Why were you living here?
Well, that's a whole other story
because that probably would've been when you were working with Les, right?
Yeah.
We were doing, we did the Leon Russell film.
Oh, yes.
Call him as a naked person.
Yes.
And Leon had all these folks from Austin working for him and Jim Franklin.
Yep.
Oh, the great trip Armadillo
artist was painting Leon's swimming pool.
Right.
And so he would invite us down to Austin to visit.
So we came down here a couple times and when we finished Leon Film, I
didn't know where where I was gonna go.
I was not going with Les 'cause he was going with his girlfriend to Hollywood.
And I said, Austin, how about Austin?
Yeah, I know all these people.
I met all these people already and.
I came down here and felt like at home immediately.
And So you would've been hanging out at the armadillo?
Yes.
Probably seeing
Willie Clean.
Did you see Willie play?
Oh yeah.
Oh man.
All
those guys
that those, that's the golden time.
It was the time.
It was the Haight Ashbury of Wase.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a great
time.
Oh, incredible.
Yeah.
That's really fan.
I'm so glad you got to experience that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you ever shoot any footage of any of that?
No, it was before I was doing things like that.
Yeah.
People were, people were not documenting the way that they do now.
Right.
I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of weird.
It feels weird now.
You know?
It's like, why didn't I take pictures of.
That experience.
Well, that's your documentary brain.
That's the Yeah.
The blessing and the curse of being a, a filmmaker.
Right.
You want to document everything.
Yeah.
Not always.
Just experience it, so.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I'm so glad that we got to have this experience, so, yeah.
Thank you again, Maureen.
This is, this is a real treat.
You bet.
Well, thank you.
Okay, that was Maureen Goss.
Um, man, I loved every second of that.
And I particularly loved how at the end she was framed by flowers and it felt
like, like that was an extension of the movies that she and Les made together.
And, um, that was just a treat for me.
So I hope you guys enjoyed, I hope you got something out of it.
I sure did.
Keith, you were missed.
I will see you next week.
Hope you had a great trip to la.
I hope you guys enjoyed the episode, and stay tuned.
Uh, next week for our friend, documentary producer Hillary Pierce,
who is joining us for a Dock Walk.
Dock Walks is created, produced, and edited by my friend Ben
Stein, Bower of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
Follow us at Doc Walks pod on Instagram X and YouTube.