EP022 – Fall Is Falling

Summer’s done and Fall is Falling as we (Keith & Ben) check in with each other about the state of our respective projects and how we go from development to production (fingers crossed). We don’t have the answers, but we each have our approaches to deck-creation, sizzle reel sizzling, pitching & fundraising, all to get into the ‘making’ part of filmmaking. Ben shares details about his doc project DR. DANTE, a collab with filmmaker/producer Bradley Beesley and Jimmy Kimmel’s company Kimmelot (plus Julie Goldman’s Motto Films), as an adaptation of a short into a podcast into a feature doc. And Keith shares where he is with two upcoming projects: a twist on true crime that he’s making in partnership with Frank Mosley and Concordia Studio and an all-archival film about an international auteur. Fall is here and so are important deadlines—we’re looking at expanding our industry connections and providing insights into the seasonal dynamics of this confusing industry… walk with us and let’s figure it out together!

00:00 Introduction Under the Tree

00:28 Reflecting on Seasons and Time

01:03 The Big Reset: End of Summer

02:59 Pitching New Projects

03:41 Dr. Dante: A Comedic True Crime Doc

09:32 Challenges and Changes in Filmmaking

17:05 Building a Team and New Projects

21:22 The Excitement of Filmmaking and Education

22:06 Creating a Documentary Package

22:43 The Grant Route and Its Importance

24:27 Sundance Catalyst Invitation

26:38 Editing the Sizzle Reel

29:47 Balancing Multiple Projects

30:05 The Importance of General Meetings

33:51 Pitching and Developing New Projects

37:14 Fall Festivals and Film Releases

40:15 Wrapping Up and Future Guests

This is a tree that we ended up underneath a few episodes ago,

and I really like this tree.

Beautiful.

This one is a live oak that I know.

Sound of Bird song in the air.

Oh, there you're with the birds cottonwoods in the distance.

Oh, that's nice.

The sun flare in there through the tree branches.

All right, Ben.

I remember it like it was yesterday, but it was a few months ago when

we said spring is in the air.

That is not the case anymore.

No, spring is sprung.

We are, we are here, uh, at the end of the summer, the beginning of the fall.

It does not feel like fall in Austin, Texas.

Um, summer.

It's kind of an eight month proposition here.

Yeah.

We, uh,

we're pretty selective about our seasons.

That's right.

We like spring, couple weeks, fall, couple weeks really the summer.

Really focus on the summer,

but we put the kids back in school last week and so it is a turning of the page.

We started out in episode two of this podcast going to Sundance

and talking about kind of.

Setting the calendar year based on the clock that starts at Sundance

and underneath that system we're about 60% of the way into the year.

Yep.

But to me, this time of year is always kind of like a big reset.

How so?

Say more about that.

If you're not in hardcore production, summer is a hard time to get a lot

of work done with the schedule, with being family men as we are.

Yep.

Juggling kind of turnover.

With interns in the office and vacation plans for the staff and, and, you

know, potential subjects and their travel and kind of summer needs.

And so feels like things kind of fall apart towards the end of the

summer and then boom, September comes along and get your head focused.

And set.

Yep.

And it's time to get to business.

Yeah.

Everybody sort of takes the summers off and then comes back to the

office in September, raring to go.

And they're looking to fund projects and get things in production for,

uh, the upcoming calendar year.

And so this is a good time to, uh, to start setting pitches and.

Uh, to get things basically, like you said, back in the

office and, and ready to go.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walks with Ben and Keith.

Well, let me ask you, what does September October look like for Ben

Steiner, for The Bear for your projects?

Well, let's see.

We at The Bear um, have a new producer that's starting with us

that we're very excited about.

We are going to, uh, restart our intern program and have a lot

of, uh, new folks in the office.

So I'm excited for that new energy.

And then in terms of pitching documentary projects, we have a pitch

that is, uh, based on a podcast.

For a, uh, basically comedic true Crime documentary.

Tell me more about that one.

That one is called Dr. Dante, and that is a, um, project that our mutual friend,

Brad Beesley, we should get him on the show, which who will be a guest on the

podcast, no doubt at some point has been developing for years and years,

and we are working together, uh, with.

Jimmy Kimmel's company, Kimmelot and uh, Campside Media, the podcast company who

created the podcast to basically, uh, make a feature doc where, uh, this guy's

kind of like the original, like online influencer who basically scammed tons of

people out of millions of dollars and.

He's no longer with us, and Bradley was the last person to film him

and expose how he pulled his cons.

And, um, there's a lot to be learned in modern day from this guy's past story.

So this is something that we, uh, are working with Julie

Goldman and Motto Pictures

Nice,

uh, on and we are gonna take out for financing and hopefully

get into production this fall.

So this is a project that.

Bradley Beesley.

Yep.

Oklahoma.

By way of Austin.

Austin by way of Oklahoma.

Filmmaker Uhhuh developed as a film project years ago with the subject

when he was still alive, created lots of material that didn't become a film

project, but then became a podcast.

He made

a short that basically felt like it never quite hit, hit the mark.

Okay.

And he knew that there was always something more.

To do with this story.

Yeah.

And then COVID hit and he had all this material and the popular

podcast series called Chameleon.

Mm-hmm.

Picked it up and it became one of their most listened to series.

And once that came out, Terrance Winter from Wolf of Wall

Street and Boardwalk Higher.

And Sopranos basically licensed the rights.

And it was like, this is my next.

Big, this is my follow up to Wolf of Wall Street, and so he's been

developing the scripted Hollywood scripted version of the story.

And then I was working with Kim a lot on the High Hopes show, and uh,

Bradley brought the project to me, asked if I would be interested in

joining and taking it to Kimmelot.

And that was two years ago.

And so we've been developing it.

Ever since, and we originally took it out as a doc series, and we got a lot of

feedback that because it wasn't current, this is a story that happens largely

in the seventies, eighties, nineties, that it just, they didn't have the

appetite basically for this as a series.

So we reimagined it as a feature.

Okay.

And have brought on Julie Goldman.

To, um, that's a good move.

Help us find financing.

So that's, that's where we are.

Okay.

So that's gonna be a big push for, for you this September.

Yep.

And how do you,

who do you make that push?

What are your steps?

Well, so we've kind of done the traditional development steps

of creating a sizzle, creating a deck, aligning with, um.

Getting a celebrity executive producer like Jimmy Kimmel and having a big

name writer like Terrence Winter.

Now Julie Goldman's company will help us think about who we

could cast for the reenactments, which will be a big part of it.

Also pitch it as a package deal so that if.

Let's say an Amazon wants to do both the scripted Terrance Winter

version and the documentary version, which we're hearing there is a large

appetite for right now that that is on the table as part of the sale.

And so we will take it out.

And what that means is we get on these calls and.

We basically do a soft shoe routine where we pitch it, we tell 'em the

story, here's what the movie's gonna be like, here's why you should buy this,

here's why the audience will love it.

So with Julie's booking these calls, you guys, this is a long, this process

has been, had a lot of ups and downs.

It's, yep.

How many years into it are you?

Oh, I'm two years into it.

And Bradley.

Oh, Bradley was filming with this guy back in 2008 and oh nine.

Oh, okay.

So this is a long time come.

So I want

to.

Twist this scenario for a second.

You are 20 years into your career long relationships.

Obviously Bradley winning your longest relationships and we'll, yep.

I said we'll have Bradley on the show.

He's foundational in your development.

Absolutely.

Yep.

Absolutely.

One of my mentors and someone like Julie Goldman, who is a giant in the industry.

Yep.

She's, you know, produced.

And we got dozens her on the show at some point too.

For sure.

Yeah.

I was just on the phone with Julie the other day.

Hey Julie, if you're listening, um, come on the show.

And so 20 years in, you have this opportunity to kind of put together this

package of these are heavy, heavy hitters.

Yeah.

Heavy hitters.

Exactly.

Where, how would things be different if.

You were trying to get this thing going, but you didn't have that track record.

You didn't have these relationships.

What you had is a great story.

Yeah, and a great subject like Dr. Dante, Dr. Dante.

Um, well, it would be a lot like, uh, how I started out, which was I could

shoot everything I needed to shoot, I could edit everything I needed to edit.

You know, basically you're kind of looking for support and screening

versions of the movie as you go was always the way that I would, would do it.

And I guess in a way still do that now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Does that, does that answer your question?

I believe Yeah, for sure.

Uh, like, I mean, I guess.

And what has changed do you think, if you were starting today versus starting

when you started, you said you'd go back to kind of how you started.

Yeah.

What's different today do you think, for people starting out

than where you were in that way?

Well, you know, sort of all the cliche answers that I think

everybody says are very true.

Like, you know, the fact that we're shooting this show on these tiny prosumer

cameras and it looks the way that it does and is as easy to edit, uh, and

then we can put it out on YouTube and.

You know, like the, the, the barriers to entry for actually ha having

access to the tools are so low.

It's, you think it's much easier for, for

emerging filmmakers today?

I think it's easier to make the product.

I think it's harder for people to watch, watch it because everybody's

sort of drowning in their own world of, I hate to use the word contents,

but you know, everybody's got the podcasts they listen to and that.

YouTube channels that they follow and the shows they're watching on Netflix.

So to, to break into that and get somebody to pay attention to your

movie, let alone like, get off the couch and go to a theater.

I think that is harder than ever these days.

Um, so I guess if I was starting out, I, I know this is such a cheesy answer, but

I would just be all over social media all the time and would be trying to like, I.

You know, build up a following, get people excited and be building basically

like a a, an audience for the thing that I was making while I was making it.

And are you doing that now?

No, not at all.

Well, me neither.

I mean, I'm 47 and so, like speaking the language of social media, I do

to an extent, but not the way that, like if I was in my twenties, which

is what you're asking me mm-hmm.

That I would be able to do.

'cause that's just not.

The place I am in my life anymore.

I, I feel like this is kind of like an old guy answer, but

yeah.

It's a

truthful answer.

Yeah.

And I mean, I only ask because, you know, like you said, all the things

that you said you would do if you didn't have these, like, longstanding

relationships and kind of like a access to more of the industry side of things.

Yeah.

Well, one interesting thing, I, I will just say almost as like a cautionary

tale for young filmmakers is that.

At a certain point, what I realized is I was a decent shooter, pretty good editor.

I was like, above average, I think, as an editor, and I can still edit,

but I, I got a decent outside shot.

I got soft hands.

Yeah.

The whole thing.

But I, I realized that a certain point that if I could hire people

who were better than me, that would make my work a lot stronger.

And so I let my shooting ability atrophy.

Um, and so now when I'm trying to develop projects, I have to find

somebody who will come with me to go shoot, have to, and, and so that, uh,

in a way hamstrings me a little bit.

So I would say for everybody coming up, like, keep those.

Skills sharp and know how to shoot.

I mean, I'm gonna push back on that as your friend, as your colleague, as

your fan, you could pick up a camera and figure that shit out over the

course of two days of production.

Yeah.

And figure out like what your voice is in that.

And certainly it's not gonna be the same as, you know, one of the great

shooters that you've had the luxury of working with and the pleasure of working

with who are, you know, rocking an area, Alexa or some of the other like.

Fancy pants, cameras.

Yeah.

That I know that you have.

That's what I'm used to working with at this point.

Yeah.

And it doesn't have to be this rinky dinkle at all.

Podcast camera, you know, uh, Sony FX six or a Canon C 200 or 300 or

C 70, which is my camera of choice.

You, you'd be running gun and back at it before too long.

So I don't, I wouldn't sell yourself short.

Okay.

You know?

Alright.

I like this.

Thanks for the pep talk, Keith.

Yeah.

But I bring up like.

Uh, when, you know, I was at, I was pushing on the point of your industry

connections and your industry knowledge and your, your relationships only because

like your answer of like what you do if you didn't have that stuff today mm-hmm.

Is like dipping your credit card and put in a lot of like

sweat equity and man hours.

Right.

And like roll the dice.

And that is, you know, that's how I got started.

That's how you get started.

That's how I think just about everybody gets started.

Yeah.

Um, and I think if you were at it today, you're absolutely right.

That's still.

So that's still the way to get started.

It's, it's not only the most effective way to say, Hey, you don't know me.

I haven't done anything that you've heard of.

Right.

But I have something to say.

Right.

Because you kinda have to, you know, put your money where your mouth

is and, and lay it on the line.

Absolutely.

But I think like the idea of like putting your stuff out in social

media and building your audience from the get go is something they've been

saying since we both got started.

Right?

Like, build your audience.

Build a, know the people you know, Cindy Debowski.

Was on one of our episodes and, and they talked about yeah.

Putting together some massive email list.

Yep.

And, and, and building community, building community off of that.

And that's, you know, that precedes social media.

That precedes like the opportunity to create TikTok following, or a Twitter

following or whatever's true now.

I just think it's interesting that like, if you've got a story to

tell, whether you're somebody like the esteemed Motto with 20 years of

experience and, and you know, festival laurels and, and, and old friends to.

To call on speed dial in his Rolo deck.

Oh shucks.

Keith, you're making me sound way cooler than I am.

I definitely, that's right.

Nobody's paying.

Nobody's listening.

It's okay.

They, when they saw we didn't have a guest this week, they tuned out anyway.

Uh, so don't make too much of it.

Uh, this is really for an audience of one, but the reality is right, like we

all have to kind of start somewhere.

And we started out by talking about like September and October fall is in the air.

This is a moment.

To like push a thing out into the world uhhuh and try and generate energy.

Yes.

And whether that energy is with Julie Goldman setting up calls with

HBO and Netflix, or that energy is.

Making a commitment to putting, you know, like five clips on the internet

over the course of the next five weeks.

Yep.

To like develop an audience to kind of like build a little

ground soul of momentum.

Right.

This is the time to get into production basically, is what we're saying.

And so what does it look, you ask about me here, here, let's, uh, flip around here.

Maybe this is a good little look at how pretty this is.

We got lily pads.

Let's see.

Let's this's a good dog here.

Yeah, it's oh, oh, so pretty

well, I guess maybe it's, uh, it looks good from afar, but, uh, far from good.

There you go.

No closeup Monet's water lilies.

That's with, uh, a couple of plastic water bottles.

Yeah.

Um, so, all right, so you're asking me all these questions.

Let me, let me ask you, Keith, what does, uh, yeah, you, what

does the fall look like for you?

Uh, the fall is hopefully gonna be busy and, uh, busy and full of business.

We've got over at Go Valley, you know, I've got like a really great team.

Um, you know, Megan Gilbride, producing from her perch in Los Angeles, got.

Uh, Sarah Wilson, uh, producing from the house next door to the office where I also

lived, um, which works out great for us.

Who is also your wife that Yeah.

Which helps.

That helps with that.

Yeah.

Um, we've got, uh, you know, Veronica Maciel, our, our in-house

coordinating producer who kind of keeps us, you know, steered in the

right direction and on top of things, uh, we got Austin Reedy, our, uh.

Our editor, who's currently editing a series for HBO out of our

office, working for somebody else, but, but hanging out every day.

And, uh, and then we've got a team of assistants and interns,

Shayla, Luca, Julie, Josh, Sydney.

So we have a great team.

And so basically this fall we've got a, uh, a kind of modern twist

on true crime that we've been developing with Concordia Studios.

And my partner on that is a, an actor and filmmaker named Frank Mosley,

who we met at Sundance this year.

That's right.

On the, on the podcast.

Yep.

Yeah.

You know, that's a project Frank and I developed for about two

and a half, three years before we got really serious about it.

Kind of had to figure out what the approach was, figure out access, figure

out if there was, this was really a thing that needed to be made and needed

to be made by us at this time, like this time last year, we started negotiations.

With Concordia Studios and those negotiations worked out,

we started getting financing rolling in Con in January.

Con Concordia for our listeners, uh, is whose company.

Uh, they're a great and powerful documentary company, uh, led by Davis

Guggenheim, Oscar Winter Davis Guggenheim from, um, an Inconvenient Truth Waiting

for Superman.

Still the Michael J. Fox movie.

He has a

movie out right now called Deaf President Now.

On the premiered at Sundance when we were there.

And he's got a great team that surrounds him, Casey and Lizzie, and, uh, and

INE Powell Jobs is his partner in that.

They're a powerful team.

There are people we're really excited to partner with, but our work is not done.

You know, they put in enough money for us to really put this development into gear.

Yep.

And to, to make like a really robust sizzle that, that showcases years of work.

Right.

A really, uh.

You know, in depth deck, uh, budget and financing plan and production plan.

And so basically together we are gonna be going out this, this month

and next month looking to kind of flesh out the rest of the team and the

rest of the financing to be able to make this project a complete reality.

And so that is not coincidental, right?

That's on this same clock we're talking about.

Yeah.

Just by

design, what we, we made a deal with them.

Late last fall.

The money started coming in in January.

The goal was to have those deliverables in place this summer.

Mm-hmm.

To be able to hit the ground running real hard right now.

And I'll be honest, fully honest, here I am a few weeks late on my deliverables

and by a few, like six or seven.

Oh.

So anyway, that's probably my, that's my biggest project.

And then secondarily.

I have another project, another doc that, that I've been developing kind of

the old fashioned way with no support.

Partnered with a filmmaker out of Dallas named Daniel Labs.

Yep.

Daniel.

And this is

who worked at Oak Cliff for a long time.

Daniel's a programmer, he's a director.

Um, he worked at the Dallas International Film Festival.

He worked at Oak Cliff.

He's done programming for other festivals around the country.

Um, and he is also made several shorts and a feature, and he had access

and an idea about a documentary.

That is, uh, at this point an all archival kind of cinephile documentary about an

international auteur in the 20th century, um, with unique access to a trove of

footage that nobody has ever seen before.

Mm-hmm.

As soon as we started talking about, I got very excited, and for me it brought up one

of like, kinda my favorite things about filmmaking, which is just an opportunity

for like a massive amount of education.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't have.

Uh, deep knowledge of the subject by any stretch.

I had like an interest and an appreciation, and I initially, I said,

you know, I don't know that I'm the right person for this project because

there are dozens of people out there in the world, if not hundreds or even

thousands who have, who knows so much more about the subject than I do.

They'd probably be better choice yeah, for this.

But Daniel believed in, in me and my voice as a storyteller and said, well, why don't

we make the discovery and the education.

A part of the process.

Mm. And uh, and so we've leaned into that.

So anyway, we've spent a few months, but a year and a half since we started

talking, and a few months of, of significant, um, focus to really dial

in to create a package for this doc.

Um, because it's all archival at this point.

There's no production.

You know, we didn't have to run around with cameras at all.

We are basically digging through archives, uh, pulling together, rip reels.

And, and making a sizzle reel and deck and a production plan and

budget that allow us to kind of go out and start applying for grants.

Okay.

And, you know, well that's interesting.

Why are you going the grant route?

Because this is really a culture documentary and it's,

it's got a historical element, it's got a culture element.

It's really an art for art's sake kind of story.

Mm-hmm.

But I think it's an important subject matter and an important, you know, like.

Cultural landmark.

Kind of like a little, playing a little flag of history.

Yeah.

That hasn't existed.

And so you know whether funders will see it that way.

I do not know.

But the other reason we went out with for grants was because grants have deadlines.

Hmm.

And without deadlines, I'd be chitchatting with Daniel and Megan

and Sarah and Austin about this.

You know, nine months from now.

So you, you are a good chit chatter.

Thanks.

That's true.

But yeah, so we used the deadline of the Austin Film Society.

Um, development grant to get our acting gear this summer.

That grant did not require a sizzle reel.

It just required a writeup and, and some financial ideas and, and kind

of putting some ideas on paper, which isn't my favorite thing to do.

To like write about a filmmaking process.

That hasn't happened yet.

Right.

But I wrote about that in my writeup that this will be like all the documentaries.

I strive to make a journey of discovery.

Yeah.

That could only be figured out through the process of making the thing.

Um, but that we've got a great foundation to start with a historical basis.

And like I said, the fact that this footage has never been seen by anybody

and it's not a little amount of footage.

It's a lot of footage, okay.

Really, uh, gets me excited about it.

So we used that deadline this summer to get going, and then immediately

on the heels of that, we started identifying some other opportunities.

We were invited.

To pre-app apply to Sundance Catalyst.

Ooh.

Um, which exciting I've never been involved with before.

I don't know a lot about, but I know, uh, I like the idea of catalyzing

some forward momentum and some financing and some investment.

Cata catalyzing.

Sounds good.

Yeah.

So how did you get that

invite?

How does that work?

Well, so I'm not exactly sure, you know, to be honest with you, like I know

that the nice people at Sundance are like kind of working in the shadows.

To kind of lift projects up and, and place them through this catalyst

program into view of investors, individual investors, I believe.

Okay.

And so I think they reached out to different sources through the

industry to ask for recommendations.

And somewhere along the line, our project, um, bubbled into that system.

And so basically we got an email from them saying, you've been invited.

To submit a pre-application and depending on how they, what, what they

determine from the pre-application, we might be invited to apply.

And then depending on how they feel about that application, we might be

allowed to mingle to the world of the catalyst at Sundance this year.

Okay.

Uh, I dunno, like I said, it's all new to me, but again, the, the, the biggest

and most real part that came of that.

One, a little, a little validation, a little slap on the back that

says, Hey, somebody out there thinks this is a good idea.

Yeah.

So that's nice.

Yep.

But the biggest thing that came of it is like another deadline.

And with that deadline required a sizzle reel.

Yeah.

And so suddenly it wasn't just a writeup and a budget and a deck, it was, put your

money where your mouth is and show us why this thing deserves to be a movie.

Right.

And for me, I'm the kind of filmmaker, so much of the work that I do.

It comes to life in the edit.

It's the reason why I hold, you know, my editor Austin, in such high regard,

is because it's really in collaboration with him that so many of the things I'm

excited about in the work have come out.

And so

how, especially in a project like this that is archival based, how

do you go about creating the sizzle reel out of existing footage?

Well, so we, well, to, to finish on the thought about Austin.

Austin wasn't available, uh, right now to work with us on the sizzle reel.

And Daniel, who, uh, initiated the project with me said he wants to spend

time together in the edit with me.

So we decided to throw our hats in together and, and make the sizzle reel.

And that was like a great way to kind of jumpstart our working collaboration.

And so what we did is we went and, and we ripped.

Like I said, this is a film about a filmmaker.

It's a film about a, an in international auteur, like a household name filmmaker

with a big long line of credits and, and, and moments in his filmography.

So we started by pulling.

Material from that filmography and just like I said, creating a rip reel.

Okay.

Um, so you're looking at his past work, pulling things out of it that

you think are that speak to us Yeah.

That,

that kind of communicate some of the ideas that we're trying to, to tap into.

But like the biggest and most important thing, and there would be no project

without this, is this trove of our archival material that Daniel identified.

You know, we had to make a relationship with the archive.

Right.

And so that's what we spent most of the last year doing was connecting

with this archive, explaining.

What we'd like to be doing with the material that, that they've been

protecting, that they have the rights to, and uh, and kind of winning over

their participation in collaboration, which I'm glad to say we, we have.

'cause there'd be no project without that.

Right.

It's one thing to have those conversations and to make that relationship.

It's another thing to like start working with the material.

And so that's kind of where we're at, is like, pull together the archival

material and start cutting it.

So you did the actual.

Editing of the sizzle reel.

Yeah,

Daniel and I did it together.

Daniel initiated it.

I jumped in with him.

We kind of tag teamed it for a week together here in Austin.

He lives in Dallas.

And like I was saying before, for me as a, as a storyteller, it's

so much of what I'm excited about process wise happens in the edit.

And so the process of making the sizzle reel, which is something

I, you know, I kind of put off.

Because I like to keep the idea in the idea sphere.

Yeah.

As the fuck as possible.

Yes.

But when it came to like, okay, the rubber meets the road, like,

we gotta make something here.

We gotta show people and we gotta win them over.

Right.

In the process of putting the sizzle together, suddenly like the way

the film is going to work should work, could work was made clear.

Yeah.

Some of the ideas we had didn't bear fruit and, and some of the things.

That we came up with, we would've never, you know, thought of on our own without

the experience of just like, juxtaposing pieces of footage and trying things and,

and mixing music and, and other ideas in.

So anyway, that's been a really incredible and fun project this summer.

So I come out of the summer with two projects.

Ready to go out with our handout.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

So, and is that, so to ask you the same question you asked me, is that basically

how you would've approached it when you were starting out in your younger years?

Or is that evolved and is it different?

Well, it's, you know, I would say you taking these two projects, like one

is the new way and one is the old way.

And so with the, with the true crime story, working with Concordia.

That is, you know, uh, my agent set a meeting with Concordia.

It was a general meeting that is in a meeting.

I would've been able to set up myself 20 years ago.

Right.

I wouldn't know how, I wouldn't know to even ask for it.

Yep.

Out of that general meeting, you know, usually nothing

comes outta general meetings.

It's just like a way to get to know you, a little meet and greet.

Yep.

You know, we should work together down the line somewhere.

Right.

But this is the rare instance where a general meeting

turned into a financing deal.

Wow.

Um, you know,

the, and so in that general meeting.

So, uh, for our audience that doesn't necessarily understand that term, your

agent basically says, Hey, I sent your bio and talked you up to blank company.

So in this case it was Davis Guggenheim's Company.

Concordia.

Yep.

And somebody over there whose job it is to keep track of filmmakers AZ

Muer.

Who's who's, yeah, that's exactly her job is to.

Find new projects to make deals with.

Yep.

Um, to be aware of what's going on in the industry, to kind of know what the company

wants and what the industry can bear.

Yep.

Um, like we just had a meeting and we hit it off and we got into a place

where we found some common ground and she said, let's work together.

So that happened, you know, about a year ago.

Right.

And so then from from there, a lot of times it's, oh, just they're, they're sort

of keeping track of what you're doing.

But in this instance, you pitched this project probably, or

talked about it in that general.

I said, well, what are you guys interested in?

What are you looking for this year?

And she said, oh, we're, we're interested in anything.

We're, we're looking for all kinds of things.

Pretty much anything except true crime.

I said, oh, that's funny because I have one of those, but I'm not really

pitching it yet 'cause I haven't taken it far enough to really know

exactly what I want to do with it and I wanna be careful with it.

'cause people do such a terrible job of making like true crime,

you know, which has like a stigma against it and, and Right.

And it's an earned stigma, I think in most cases.

Mm-hmm.

And she said, well, now I'm curious.

So what, what do you have in mind?

And that turned into a deal.

And so to answer your question, like how did I end up, well, how

would I treat it differently?

Yeah.

If I was starting out today that project, I couldn't do this way.

Like I wouldn't, you know, that's project from the get go

that you need, that that existed because of your agents

and the connected It existed

because of the work that I've done.

You know, my, my agent was able to set the meeting.

Casey was aware of my previous work.

Yeah.

I had met Davis years ago.

A lot of things, a lot of dominoes had been set right in the 15

years leading up to that meeting.

Gotcha.

Um, but on the archival doc about the filmmaker, that is one that I'm

literally doing exactly what I think I would've done in 2004 when I got started.

I partner with a strong collaborator.

I did a round of research.

I talked myself out of making it and got talked back into it.

All the steps that I wouldn't have gone into, you know, when I started

and then we made something, um, and we were utilizing grants as a, as a

motivating factor to hit deadlines.

You know, we may not get a single grant for the project, but the process

of like filling out first the a FS grant application, then the Sundance

Catalyst grant application, we're applying to the Meadows Foundation,

we're going to the foundation library to research other grants.

That we don't even know about, just like I did in 2004.

So, yeah.

So for me, that process hasn't changed.

I think that what's changed is like my abilities as a filmmaker have

sharpened and my communications, uh, with my collaborators has

been emboldened and strengthened.

You know, I'm a, I'm a better and stronger partner than I was 20 years

ago, so I'm coming into September.

Looking to pitch these two significant projects, significant to me projects.

And then I've got at least two other docs that are like in

the building blocks for that.

Um, so that as we go into the pitch process, hopefully we're connecting

with execs, with financiers, with, with independent investors.

And when people say.

This isn't right for us.

What else do you have?

Then?

You've got something else in the hopper.

Yeah, I've always got something else.

Yeah.

Um, and I've always got something else.

Not because like I'm a mercenary who's like, if I don't have something

else, I can't make a career.

Right.

I got something else.

'cause I've got like a million curiosities.

Right.

Which is so awesome.

Which is what you need ultimately to be a storyteller.

You gotta have, you gotta want to tell the stories and go out and actively.

Find them and develop them.

Yeah,

and I think like one of the downsides is they're all very

different from each other.

You know, in addition to these documentaries, I've got a scripted

animated series that I've been kind of knocking my head against for a couple

years with really great producers out in LA trying to figure out how to get

this unique show into the streamer's back pocket or, or onto TV screens.

You know, I've got three different scripts that I've written

with my screenwriting partner.

I've got two different indie features that I'm trying to write myself right now.

Wow.

Yeah.

'cause you also work a lot in scripted

and in fiction.

You know, I and I, and I don't get as much done as I'd like to, and honestly,

adding this podcast in it's really, really complicated things in that

this is the thing that's got the, the fastest turnaround and the most like.

Day to day.

Well, you're welcome.

Thanks.

I,

I

see where you're going

with this and you're welcome.

I, uh, but I've loved it because it also is so many of these projects, literally,

if you hear, every project I've talked about has a number attached to it

that is, that is registered in years.

Right?

Right.

So to make something like this, where we are talking.

On a Wednesday morning and two Thursdays from now, people are going to hear this.

Yep.

That scratch is a, a big itch for me, which is like

actually just making something.

Yeah, me too.

And here's the crack all oils.

Hello?

Little rack.

Oh, let's see if you can get it to rack.

Okay.

Well, so we started out by talking about, again, fall may be in the

air, but it's about 95 degrees here.

They're both sweating, sweaty men.

Um, young people of all stripes are zooming past us on this trail.

Yep.

Men with their shirts off glistening in the sun muscles, young people,

older people that are somehow in much better shape than me.

And here we are with our potbellies and our, uh, sensible shoes.

Yeah.

But, uh, hopefully we've accomplished something in this conversation.

We talked about kind of what the next two months.

Are looking like from a pitch perspective, let's just lightning round some other

details about the fall that kind of make this, uh, an exciting time of the year.

You mentioned, uh, getting your internship program back up and running.

Yep.

So if anybody listening, uh, is interested in being an intern at The Bear and coming

over to work with us on, uh, developing projects and working on commercials,

uh, we're always accepting applications.

So you can find out more about that at our website, the Bayer us.

And then as everybody who's a film lover knows, as we get closer to the

holidays, that's when like the award, um, winning films start to be released.

And so there are certain festivals that come along that go with that.

So like the Toronto International Film Festival.

Yeah.

Toronto's about to be about to happen.

Idfa over in Amsterdam.

Um, in New York you've got Doc NYC.

Uh.

Which coincides with kind of like a whole round of films that came out

in the spring in the festival market are now hitting theaters in the fall.

Mm-hmm.

So like the films that, that you were looking at, that you were hearing

about at Sundance at South by even in Tribeca, are now hitting streamers.

They're hitting theaters.

There's a real art house revolution that's happening, uh, nationwide.

Reed Davenport.

Uh, and Sandy Debowski and some of the other, uh, filmmakers that are

self-distributing have shown us.

So I think like paying attention if you're an emerging filmmaker or if you're

a mid-career filmmaker or like us, like paying attention to what other people

have been working these last three or four years on that are finally ready to share.

Yep.

This is a great time of year for that.

Um, and I think what you can do, like it's easy to feel out of touch and out of sync.

With the festival world, if you're in the middle of production or you know,

on the front side of a thing that feels like three years away from being done,

but just going to festival websites and seeing like what's a premiere at Toronto

and, and what sounds interesting to you.

Where are some names that you've heard before from, from veteran filmmakers, you

know, bringing their fourth or fifth film out and what are some brand new names?

Some new voices.

Uh, that's right.

You can learn a lot by just going to festivals, catalogs, yeah.

And looking at what's premiering.

Yeah.

Um, reading the descriptions of the movies to get a sense for like

what's being funded, what kind of stories are being told right now.

And,

uh, I go back to the beginning of the year, look at the Sundance catalog,

that's the South by Southwest catalog, and see like which of those films

are now available and read reviews.

Mm-hmm.

Even if you don't get a chance to see the film, see what people are talking

about when they talk about that film.

You know, what's an important subject?

What's a groundbreaking, stylistic choice?

This is all great advice and as usual, um, you know, Keith, you kind

of have to convince me to do these episodes where it's just you and I.

'cause I sometimes worry that we aren't, uh, delivering much of

value to people when it's just talking about our experience.

But as usual, I'm very glad that we did it, that you convinced me.

And I hope that you guys got something out of the listening to us talk about

how we think about our projects and what the fall is gonna bring for us.

Yeah, Ben.

And how do we wrap this up, Keith?

Well, we're back here underneath the same live oak tree we started at.

So that's a pretty good, like full circle thing.

We have some exciting guests booked for the near future.

We got Bradley Beasley coming on board.

Yeah.

Uh, we gotta get Brad out here.

So fall is not just a pitch session, kind of like get it going on the business

side, but it's also a great time for this podcast to turn it up a notch.

Ooh.

It's some new, some new blood.

I love it.

All right, well we're gonna, we're gonna turn it up a notch you guys.

So thanks for listening.

We hope you enjoyed and, uh, stay tuned for more.

Alright,

thanks for Doc Walking Doc Walks.

Is.

Created, produced and edited by my friend Ben Steinbauer of The Bear

Hello, and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for tuning in.

Follow us at Doc Walks Pod on Instagram X and YouTube.