EP021 – LIFE AFTER with Reid Davenport and Colleen Cassingham

Two-time Sundance winner Reid Davenport is in town with his new film LIFE AFTER. We were excited to book time with Reid and his producer Colleen Cassingham for a sit-down with Keith at the Austin Film Society Cinema. Reid shares the story behind what drew him to telling this complex story about the issues attached to state sanctioned assisted suicide and talks about his early filmmaking days where questions of identity and politics shaped him as a filmmaker with a unique perspective. Both Reid and Colleen appear on-camera in LIFE AFTER and we dig into that process, their respective roles, and how their story (& they) changed along the way. This is a film supported by ITVS and airing this Fall on Independent Lens and so of course, the recent cuts to CPB are in the air—but it’s not all politics on this episode. We also dig into the filmmakers and films that inspired these two filmmakers and find plenty to laugh about together. Join us for a look at LIFE AFTER and life on the road with Reid Davenport and Colleen Cassingham.

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guests

00:44 Setting the Scene: Austin Film Society Cinema

01:21 Introducing the Film ‘Life After’

03:23 Challenges and Strategies in Film Distribution

06:27 Impact of Public Media Cuts

08:56 Exploring the Film’s Themes and Personal Reflections

13:33 Production Process and Personal Insights

24:24 The Tension of Filmmaking

25:07 Exploring Disability in Film

25:45 Inspiration and Filmmaking Journey

31:15 The Role of Mentors

40:07 Practical Advice for Emerging Filmmakers

44:33 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude

Keith Maitland 0:00 All right, Keith, so who are we talking with today? This is going to be a great one. This is a conversation with Sundance winner Reid Davenport, who is on the road right now with his film life after. And sat down with Reid and his producer, Colleen Cassingham. They're here in Austin, present life after on a self distribution DIY rollout courtesy of multitude films. And so I grabbed these guys.

Ben Steinbauer 0:28 Yeah, when I say we, I mean you, because unfortunately, I wasn't able to join you

Keith Maitland 0:31 were here. And honestly, four people is maybe pushing it for this podcast. We're gonna have to find out. But it was a nice little, a nice little three way conversation between me and Reid and Colleen casting him. This one is different. We're not walking. We are at our hometown art house, theater, the Austin Film Society, cinema and and you'll see in the podcast, we start out in the lobby. It got a little loud, so we busted to the green room, but

Ben Steinbauer 0:58 so be prepared for some edits. And also a great conversation. I was jealous to miss this one, but thank you for handling it, and I hope you guys enjoy.

Keith Maitland 1:06 Thanks very much. Here's Reid and Colleen

Keith Maitland 1:13 you're listening to Doc walks with Ben and Keith Reid, Davenport, Colleen Cassingham here in Austin to present life after at the Austin Film Society theater. Ben Steinbauer is not with us today for this episode of Doc walks for our audience members who only tune in to see Ben. Sorry guys, you don't have any Ben, but you do have these two lovely guests and their lovely film Life After, which is doing a national city tour right now. Let's talk a little bit about life after let's talk about life on the road with this movie. Let's talk about this, this teaming of reed and Colleen to make this film. How did it start? How do we get how do we get going?

Keith Maitland 1:57 Okay, I'm Done. I am gonna cut.

Keith Maitland 1:59 Okay, so the lobby got a little loud, we decided to move the conversation into a quieter spot so that we could all hear ourselves. Think you guys could hear us more clearly. And so continuing with Reid and Colleen in the green room, go. We're trying again up here in the green room. We are back on dock walks. We are still at the Austin Film Society theater, but we are no longer in the lobby. We are up in this super secret, yeah, eight foot by 10 foot cell.

Reid Davenport 2:36 We don't know where we are. Do you know where we are? Come Help

Colleen Cassingham 2:38 He kidnapped us.

Keith Maitland 2:43 we're in the green room at the AFS theater, and as we speak downstairs, audiences are seeing life after most of them, I assume for the first time, this is a film that premiered at Sundance, and I'm here with the filmmakers, Director Reid Davenport and producer Colleen, Cassingham, and Ben is not here because Ben is doing something else, but I am here, and I'm thrilled to be hanging out with these two visiting filmmakers here from New York to celebrate this film, which is a powerful film. It's a personal film, and it's a film that I think brings up questions that ought to be honest with you, I have never considered. And so there's a lot spinning through my head. So there's a lot I want to talk about. But first, let's start with, where are we right now, in the state of the industry, right like putting this film out there, multitude films is behind Reed's work here, and you guys are going city to city with this film. Let's just start there. Where have you been and where are you going?

Reid Davenport 3:42 I wouldn't say city to city without a proper distributor. More to do with, primarily Colleen, is scheduled this ten-city tour. It's very rare if ever that a production company pulls that kind of distribution muscle, but we studied New York City and from winter, Philadelphia, Chicago. Here. My name is later, LA San Francisco, Seattle, Portland.

Keith Maitland 4:25 Oh, so just like a little jaunt around, all the major... Well, I'm glad

Keith Maitland 4:31 you finally got to Austin.

Colleen Cassingham 4:32 Yeah. Stop four of 10, good. Yeah.

Keith Maitland 4:35 And this film premiered at Sundance. Yes. Is the festival run complete at this point with the city fest, or is it a kind of a hybrid?

Colleen Cassingham 4:42 Yeah, it's hybrid. We are doing. We're collapsing windows, really, so we're at the same time that we're doing festivals, continuing to do festivals. We're having this theatrical run that we built from the ground up in the middle of that we'll continue to do festivals for as long as we keep getting invitations. And yeah, it's, it's, I think we. So when we realized that, you know, first of all, we're really lucky to have a public broadcast secured, that's rare and it's and it's getting rarer and it's, it's something we don't take for granted, and that this film will have a wide release in the US through a public broadcast, but independent lens this fall, and so we knew we were building to this fall broadcast. So it's been really exciting to think about, well, what's what can we build in this time frame? And it's moving really quickly, but it's also building a lot of momentum, which is fun because sometimes the releases of films unspool very slowly over years, and it can be painful, and you think maybe nothing's moving, and then something does happen, but it's really a fun window of time to get to experiment and try new try new distribution strategies. The theatrical is one of them. We're also pairing it with a virtual screening element to increase accessibility and geographic reach. And yeah, there are lots of things we're trying, so it's exciting.

Keith Maitland 5:57 When I screened the film today, first thing I saw that popped up on the screen is that Independent Lens logo. And I've put out two films at independent lens, and Lois Lawson knows I will sing her praises to the end of time, because I wouldn't have been able to make my biggest film without her incredible and in this moment that we're living in, right? We started out by saying, like, what's the state of the industry? You guys are taking the reins and multitude and Reid the you know, you guys are all running out there with this film and going city to city in the lead up to your broadcast. How does it feel? How has it felt reading the news about the cuts to public media that have come down the pipe just in the last month, and where are your guys head on that?

Colleen Cassingham 6:35 Yeah, it's devastating

Reid Davenport 6:36 Yeah, it's terrible,

Reid Davenport 6:39 Even with this film we I mean it's a parallel with the cuts to Medicaid, between Medicaid and Public TV, it's really hard to do and really hard to offer any votes of hope right now.

Colleen Cassingham 7:01 Reid you once said that you know you know you wouldn't, you wouldn't have the career you have without public media. I also feel, you know, multitude films makes political documentaries, and there are no homes really, for real political work other than public media. And it's an it's one of the last remaining anchors for distribution avenues, as we've seen the consolidations and constrictions and every everything pulling back from from independent work, and specifically political work. So it is really frightening to think about how and whether it's still possible. It will still be possible to make like political independent work, if there

Reid Davenport 7:46 really quick, hard to forget. 10 years ago, there was this golden age of documentary where the streamers were buying up awesome independent political films and I think it's helpful people outside of the industry to realize that that's not happening anymore. It's either true crime or celebrities or there's really no place. I mean, public television has literally propped up independent filmmaking for the past five years. Without public television, there's nowhere to go

Keith Maitland 8:35 yeah. Well, that's very well put, and it's sobering. I just keep asking, hoping

Keith Maitland 8:45 someone will have an answer that put that, that gives a light to the future, but you're absolutely right, and like you said, coupling that with the custom Medicaid, it's a sobering moment. And yet, at the same time, I feel like storytelling, the likes of which you're making is more important now than ever, and so well before we get any further, let me just say kudos to multitude for figuring out. Like Reed said, it's rare to have a production company put that much muscle into distribution, and it's inspiring. And when Ben and I set out to make this podcast, we wanted to make, basically, want to make a podcast that we could have accessed 1520, years ago when we were getting started, right? Like, how do you find your way in this confusing industry? How do you find your voice as an artist? How do you choose your subjects? And how do you you make work that's worth talking about? That's what I want to talk about today. I want to reach out. I made a note when I was watching the film. Read, you said something. You said a couple things in the film that really struck me, but you said something that I wanted to leave with. You said, disabled people aren't threatened by our bodies. We're threatened by other people's bodies. Talk to me a little bit about that. That's the thesis of this film

Reid Davenport 9:51 Yeah. I mean for four decades, disabled people have been saying these words. Uh, the invention of the concepts of the social model versus the medical model. Medical model says disability is individual and it's a medical deficit. Social model says that society creates disability by not accommodating people with different bodies. So I think I was alluded to that in this film I did. It's clear that non disabled bodies are purposely are killing disabled bodies

Keith Maitland 10:47 yeah, and that is something that, you know, like I said, I did not know. I didn't know about and, and I didn't really know where you were taking the story as it went. It really unfolds in a way that kind of, you know, you know, when made the medical assistance in death and dying and dying subplot, the ins in Canada was first kind of introduced, I wasn't sure what I was supposed to feel about that. And I mean, I love a film that kind of, like puts me into into the shoes of the filmmaker and into the shoes of the subject, and forces me to make some decisions for myself, and this was one of those ones that certainly does that. Because this is all new to me. I know it's not new to you. Colleen, was this new to you, or is this something that you had been aware of before Reid brought it to multitude

Colleen Cassingham 11:36 it's totally new. And that's part of the reason I wanted to work with Reed and to make this film was because of the sort of personal and political education transformation that I had just by coming to understand these the layers that are at play in these issues. You know, I, like many progressives, thought that assisted dying was an issue simply of personal autonomy, bodily autonomy and choice, and I came to understand it's much more complicated than that when you take into account all of the ways that society strips us of choice, whether through ableism, deep seated ableism and fear of disability, loathing of disability, even let alone racism, capitalism, the way that we are denied that marginalized communities are denied the means to thrive in our society, and so it's much more complicated when you bring disability into the picture. So I certainly had a huge perspective shift that I saw an opportunity for audiences to have, and it's really exciting when you make a documentary and there's an, you know, an opportunity to not just preach to the choir, but to, like, be in dialog with with your audience. And the film does not pose easy answers.

Keith Maitland 12:51 Yeah,

Colleen Cassingham 12:51 some of some of you know, we've gotten some responses that are like this film powerfully impacted me, and yet I'm sitting here trying to figure out what to do with it all.

Keith Maitland 13:00 Yeah,

Colleen Cassingham 13:00 and there are, you know, many concrete things we can do around insisting and and continuing to make demands on the state to, like, improve, improve society, and improve our systems of care and and all of this. But one impact I hope the film makes, on a very foundational level, is just for non disabled audiences to have their idea of what disability means, reframed and to see it, to unpack the very deep seated biases we have around it, which are so often just Yeah, it's like the water we're swimming in.

Keith Maitland 13:33 So Reed, I'm curious about you taking a film like this to a production company, and like Colleen said, this is all new to her. For me, it was new to me. And I feel like so much of film storytelling is about seeing a character transform. I felt like, as I was watching it, the character that was transforming was me, because I was I was here, I was there, you introduce, I think, four distinct voices, kind of case studies, you know, but much more personal than that, the historic story and kind of what gets us going, which is Elizabeth Bouvet, the local to Austin, story of Michael Hickson and and there's a gentleman named Michael in Canada,

Reid Davenport 14:12 There's Jerika Bolen as well, yes, although we didn't interview, anyone connected to the story. We did tell the story through archival

Colleen Cassingham 14:24 Yeah. And then there's the Canadian

Keith Maitland 14:25 story, kind of the storyline of the governmental shift or the policy there for you, did you experience a change at all in the process of making the film?

Speaker 1 14:33 Reid: Yes, and no, I would say yes because—excuse me, I would say no, because this tension between progressive areas and this perspective is initially what made me interested in this story. I was in the Bay Area. I was part of this, some would say, radical disability community. Wildly progressive, And yet many of them were adamantly against assisted suicide. And I read the reasoning and they made sense, and so I thought I thought there was a concept there, but I didn't have a story and that's when I found Elizabeth Bouvet, and that's when I found all these stories echoing Bouvet and I felt that I could really tell this tale of political complacency when it comes to disability, that progressives are following the script and to positively forgetting this disabled or not knowing this disabled perspective.

Keith Maitland 16:03 It's wild. You know, you're in a community that, of course, has 1000s of perspectives that come into, you know, conversation, and so parsing those perspectives for yourself in the early stages of this is what gets you going. Of course, we're talking I know most of the people in that are listening to this probably haven't had a chance to see the film yet. I hope they will run out and see it and certainly catch it on Independent Lens. But to give a quick rundown, this is a film that primarily deals with the question of assisted suicide within the world of disability communities, and how different different people feel about that, people that are kind of, you know, the story of Michael Hickson is one of the ones that really spoke to me, because this is a family that's kind of thrown into a situation after a traumatic car accident. And and Michael Hickson

Reid Davenport 16:54 Sorry, it wasn't a car accident. the injury caused the car accident,

Keith Maitland 17:01 okay, he had a heart attack while driving

Keith Maitland 17:07 Gotcha. But so this is a family that's like forced to kind of confront this massive change in t he life of the Father.

Reid Davenport 17:13 Which it did, you know, which it did, in a way that I don't know—that is very rare.

Keith Maitland 17:23 Yeah, absolutely. And the way that, the way that Mike lexon wife talks about her situation, is just heartbreaking and and and on the flip side, then you have somebody like Elizabeth Bouvet, who has a lifetime of figuring out her relationship to cerebral palsy, and that's what gets us going on. This is your journey to figure out, one, is she still alive? And two, what she thinks now, after having made this big splash, when was that story? When was the Elizabeth

Reid Davenport 17:59 It first came into date in 1983, but it was making national news as late as 1986

Keith Maitland 18:12 Ok that's the story you didn't know that story before getting involved in the community in San Francisco. You were talking about correct Yeah. And so when you first encountered that footage of her and this kind of battle that she took on. How did you feel about her as a character, and how did you feel about what she wanted?

Reid Davenport 18:27 I thought her case was deep. I don't know another word to use but: deep.

Reid Davenport 18:38 There was a woman who more or less moved like me, in the public eye, and then she's gone, yeah. So big part of this was erasure for me. On my first film I talk about the freak show, and I talk about this simultaneity of being hyper, visible and invisible at the same time. And doing that was Bouvet. As soon as her saga was over. She was out — to the point where there were major errors in the Wikipedia. I think I went off topic a little bit. I wanted to know more about her I wanted to figure out, as much as one can, because I will never know the truth. I can't project that I do anyway, I wanted to find out what experiences led her to want to die at 26 years old so badly that she was willing to go on the national stage?

Keith Maitland 20:04 Yeah, as you kind of confronted the answers to those questions, why she made the decision she did, and you got the insights that you did from the people who shared them. I started out by asking about transformation, and I guess I'm curious, like, how much the further you got into it, did you understand her more, or did you understand her less

Reid Davenport 20:25 More as I think by three quarters of the way through production, our thesis is proven.

Keith Maitland 20:35 Yeah,Okay, all right, let's take a step back. Colleen, talk to me about the production process with Reed. So I know this concept is something he brought to multitude, and you guys got excited about it. I was surprised when I saw you appear in the film. I love when filmmakers kind of rope those around them into. This is that was that Reed's idea to kind of rope you in, and did he pull you in kicking and screaming, or was a natural, organic kind of extension of the working relationship that you guys were developing. Or how did that come across?

Colleen Cassingham 21:06 A little bit of both at first? Well, I'll take a step back and start by like Reed brought both, of course, the sort of instinct that the heart of the film was potentially Elizabeth Bouvet, and also several other seeds that ended up comprising the bulk of the film, of these contemporary stories that he saw echoes in. And so the biggest challenge was ultimately, just like, like, like, somehow Reed knew exactly what the film would be comprised of, and we just had to figure

Colleen Cassingham 21:36 out how it

Colleen Cassingham 21:39 felt like a really hard journey and but it's really remarkable to me, like thinking back exactly that, like we had all the pieces, even though we didn't necessarily believe that or know that at the time, we spent the first year and a half just doing really deep research, collecting, reading, writing to each other, back and forth, trying to, like, synthesize our own analysis around these issues. And we would go back and forth day in day and say, This is so complicated and complex, and then, and then the next day, we wake up and realize we actually it's really simple. People are just dying when they shouldn't be, and that's all you need to know. But then there were these gaps that needed to be filled, sort of these moments of like, of like perspective shift in real time, or like the puzzle pieces of like the stickiness around the feelings of about, about reevaluating our in my case, like reevaluating our perspective around this issue as we learn more that we hope that, you know, sort of is mirrored in the audience's journey. We waited to start looking for Bouvet until we were ready to have cameras up. And so we that all unfolded in real time. And, you know, at first it started like, oh, it's actually kind of awkward for me to just be, like, talking to himself in front of the computer. So, you know, you know, we

Reid Davenport 22:51 Even though, that that is what does happen—other people don't need to see that.

Keith Maitland 22:57 That's right.

Colleen Cassingham 22:58 So first it was to have a sounding board, a balancing board to have to, you know, to sort of play out in the investigative strand. And then when we had our first edit retreat with Don Bernier, our fantastic editor, he sits down and he's like, so is this a buddy film? So it's really due to Don that I continued to sort of be in the scenes that we filmed. And you know, we hope we've gotten some feedback that it feels, that it feels really useful from an audience members perspective. And I think for me, at least, especially, one of the most powerful scenes is the film is when we in. The film is when Reed is filling out the maid application himself and going through the process. And that was such a stunning moment to live and just to be in, to have that conversation together, and to just articulate out loud, wow, like Reed would be eligible for maid, I wouldn't, but we're articulating to ourselves the same reasons that we might want to, you know, the same reasons that we might be faced with suicidal ideations in our own life are similar. It doesn't have to do with disability, and yet, the only disabled person in the room would be eligible for assisted dying

Keith Maitland 24:08 Yeah. I mean, what came across to me

Keith Maitland 24:11 about this the scenes about suicide, we're

Keith Maitland 24:16 talking about people who feel out of options, and that is

Reid Davenport 24:20 and that is not metaphorical, that's not like...

Keith Maitland 24:24 that's right, it's like, legitimate, like, real,

Reid Davenport 24:28 literally, street, institution or death.

Keith Maitland 24:33 Yeah, that scene where you're filling out that form felt metaphorically, almost like sharpening a blade, like walking along a ledge, like that, felt like just engaging with that question. So hands on with, you know, a mouse click and you're initializing the form, it was almost like, don't hit send, because if you do it. Or anything like the walls could come down all around us.

Keith Maitland 25:03 That's how it felt.

Keith Maitland 25:07 Talk to me about your role as a filmmaker, because this is not your first rodeo. You know, I know that your previous film, if two like back to back, wins at Sundance. Both films focus on disability stories. This film is, is personal in the sense that you are in there, you speak your mind, you share your perspective with the audience. But it's not personal in the sense that this is your story in a nuts and bolts. How do you approach filmmaking from from like a technical, creative, esthetic point of view, like where are your Where do you take inspiration? What are the films that and the filmmakers that turned you on?

Reid Davenport 25:44 Sure, so I think this may be a bit adjacent to your point, but I think I think it's very illustrative. I came into grad school with a film, with a film about wheelchair access in Europe, and I came in determined not to be the disabled filmmaker, determined not to be the guy that makes films only about his identity and you made four films. And my first film was about a water witch in the drought in California. It was the worst film I've ever made and the next three were all about disability. I remember talking to my professor about this insecurity, about how is this interest in disability, narcissistic, or just one dimension? One dimension? She said, Well, what about Marlon Riggs? Do you think he's more dimensional or narcissistic? Marlon Riggs is one of my favorite filmmakers. So from that point on, I was very comfortable in really diving in to the politics of disability. I mean favorite filmmakers, that is a tough question, but what I will say is that my favorite films are those are those that do present ambiguity, that make you rich, that isn't necessarily validating your points, but really trying to make you work for the work for answers.

Keith Maitland 27:54 Yeah, I appreciate that so intensely because, like I said, the way that the feelings that I had today. I started out ready to jump in to kind of follow where you were going. And then you challenged me with challenging the different characters. You challenged me with direct address. Some of the things you said, you said you made another comment in there, I wrote down. And I don't usually, to be honest you, I don't usually write things down in preparation for these talks, but honestly, your film made me think I would say more than the average film does about stuff that I don't contend with much, and I'm not. I, you know, I have friends with disabilities. I have made a film. I've made multiple films in the disability in different disability communities. I stopped making films real with a recognition that there were filmmakers like you who had a point of view that I couldn't bring to bear. And I go back and forth on my on whether, how I feel about that, like whether you know, and I still don't, I don't, I don't know the answer for me, and I've decided it's only for me to decide, so I'm not gonna ask you.

Reid Davenport 28:58 I agree with that.

Keith Maitland 28:59 Thank you. But this is what you said. You said this film is not about suicide. It's about the phenomenon that leaves people desperate to find their place in the world that perpetually rejects them. And as much as that is that nails what this film is about, it also, in a metaphorical way, nails indie filmmaking right? Perpetual rejection is the world that we have signed up for, and yet we all wake up one way or another every day and decide to take on the seemingly impossible of making something out of nothing, of trying to get 100 people to show up to a dark room and watch with the light on the wall. And I'll bring this back around to you, which is this question of identity and how you feel about being the disability filmmaker in your own words, I'm sure it's an evolving question. You said, to be downstairs, evolve or die. What do you see the next the next four films? I. ,

Reid Davenport 30:00 By the way I condemn Charles Darwin, Darwin was an ableist

Keith Maitland 30:08 Among other things. Well I'm curious about your next one, but I'm more curious about, like, the arc of your career, and the fact that you've made three disability films all different, all giving you an opportunity to grow as a storyteller and to, you know, talk to audiences in different way. What do you see the next three or four films for you as a filmmaker?

Reid Davenport 30:31 Yeah, there are still disability stories that aren't being told,

Keith Maitland 30:37 for sure.

Reid Davenport 30:39 That's where, like, really, for really vitally important, live or die, how we view society stories. So that's where I will live

Keith Maitland 30:55 yeah, all right, well, you keep making them, and we'll keep showing up for them, because I have plenty to learn, and you're a great filmmaker. You're a great storyteller. The way you interweave these stories kept me on my toes and made me want to know what happened. I'm not gonna tell you what happened. You guys are gonna have to watch the film. Colleen, same question for you, who are the filmmakers that inspired you? What's the gateway drug film that turned you from who you were to who you are.

Colleen Cassingham 31:25 Oh my gosh. Well, this is so embarrassing. Should I tell the story?

Colleen Cassingham 31:34 Laura Poitras moderated our opening night Q and A film forum, and I was in a puddle of admiration and awe, because she was one of the first filmmakers I really fell in love with. And, you know, I didn't study documentary film or film, but she was my gateway drug, and I and the reason I was drawn to documentary is a form of art and politics, and so I really admire filmmakers like Brett story, who does the same. It's really, for me, all about being about weaving our political commitments into our into an art form. And often that doesn't, often, you know, like, I don't, I don't mind a beautiful propaganda film for like, leftist propaganda film once in a while. But I also love the ambiguity, the films that leave us with ambiguity and sort of like demand that the audience sign up to contribute to finding to finding the answer, whether that's for themselves or more broadly and in a general sense, as we move forward. So those are some of my my great loves

Keith Maitland 32:38 that this is a great answer. You know, for me, when I was getting started, I got really great advice from a filmmaker, a woman named Lisa McWilliams here in town, who told me to go to Hot Docs and watch the the pitch for him there. And then I did. This is way back in 2004 and Laura Poitras, I met two kind of pivotal people who who planted different seeds of advice in my ear, at that hot dogs, I met Laura Poitras, who was just on the heels of flag wars, and was really, you know, at the at the beginning of a career, that who would have known where she would have gone, but she was, you know, she had planted that flag. She was going places, but she was really warm and generous. And she's, we spent just a 15 or 20 minutes talking

Keith Maitland 33:19 She's still that warm and that generous.

Keith Maitland 33:22 Well, I haven't seen hersince then, so I hope

Keith Maitland 33:27 I met Albert Maysles, that same and and honestly, I didn't get like, an earful of advice from Albert, but just kind of being near him was, you know, I basked in the glow of, you know, 50 Years of incredible cinema, verite. So I'll double on that. Who are some filmmakers that you've sought mentorship from, or that you've connected with that have inspired you on a one to one basis

Keith Maitland 33:51 basis,

Reid Davenport 33:52 Jason Osder he made Let The Fire Burn

Reid Davenport 33:57 Oh, yeah, yeah. That film is incredible

Reid Davenport 33:59 He was my professor at George Washington University, right when that film came out, and he's the reason I became a documentary filmmaker. I knew him, but I swear to God, if I didn't know him it would still be one of my top five films. It was jaw-dropping to know Jason for so long, for over a year, and then to see this phenomena film he made. It was just, yeah —  How can I do this

Reid Davenport 34:26 do this awesome, awesome Colleen? Same question.

Colleen Cassingham 34:38 I mean, I really came up in this industry under the wing of Jess Devaney, the founder of multitude. You know, I reached out to her just as I was getting my footing in New York, and I was so lucky that when I reached out to her, she needed help building this company, and so it's been the privilege of a lifetime to get to build that with her. But I've also, I have I Brett. I've worked with Brett Story, and have benefited from her. Her deep wisdom on another film I'm producing outside of multitude she's an executive producer on, and I'm endlessly grateful to her. And then there are also other producers I really admire, like Sarah Archambault and Danielle Varga, who have, who have bodies of work just like any director does, and you can trace the through lines, and you can feel their imprint on them in really admirable ways. And I hope that one day I'll have, I'll have a body of work that sort of Can, can track my, my own sort of interests and contributions to a particular, you know, set of themes.

Keith Maitland 35:30 Well, I appreciate you, and I appreciate the point you're making about producers. You know, I work with a producer, Megan Gilbride, who I'm super close with, and that's how I know Jess is through Megan. And we don't know each other well, but we've, we've kind of stood in line at parties. It's at Sundance, and we've, you know, shared drinks. She I was, I was there when she was pitching Megan on the documentary producers Alliance. And so I feel like producers don't get the their due. I love talking with filmmakers of kind of every angle, but I especially love people who work in a collaboration that you know, like one plus one equals three, and that you know, sometimes you watch a film and you don't know where the director begins and that where the director ends and the editor begins, or all the contributions that a producer made kind of behind the scenes. But this is one of those films like you pulled a nice little magic trick of like, putting this collaboration front and center in the film, and kind of letting us see the kind of warmth and and camaraderie that you guys share come across, that it comes across here. But we started out by talking about the industry and kind of it's in the dumps, so I won't bug us. No, it's unfortunately, it is the answer, right? That's the thing. Is, we do this, Ben and I do this, we have, we've had these conversations. This is going to be our 19th or 20th episode. And every filmmaker we talk to, we ask about the industry. Because honestly, I just keep hoping somebody's going to give me, like, the secret key.

Reid Davenport 36:52 But maybe one thing is that they are shutting down or defunding public television for a reason. It's because of our power, and if we can measure that power and still keep telling our stories, we won't go away.

Colleen Cassingham 37:23 I take inspiration from that, and that's yeah, I'll add one more thing, which is, like, I was just an art house convergence in in Chicago, which is a gathering for exhibitor, exhibitors and distributors, but I've gone there for the past couple years as a producer, as a producer, moving into distribution. And I think that there's a lot, first of all, a lot we can do to work across different sectors of the industry to help harness audiences for the work that we want to keep having audiences for and to fill up these theaters. And I also think that filmmakers and producers and directors alike, but But you know, we know our audiences best, and we know who we're making our films for, or we should, and they're like I think we're trying to prove right now to ourselves that it's possible to distribute the films, distribute our films ourselves, and find our audiences. And distribution is also really can be really creative, and an extension of the of the process of making the film, particularly for films that are rooted in communities and movements, and to bring those you know, those folks into the world of film as audience members, and then to enlist them in the pre existing networks for distribution that aren't the mass airwaves or the streamers like there really are routes, in many ways, this is back to basics, getting back to basics and relearning some of what are you know, the people who came before us know very well and figuring out how to do that in our in our context, but I'm feeling also very energized at the same time that it's frightening. And I don't know if you know, I don't know if we'll be around in a year, but if we can make it through, I think we'll learn a lot in the process. Connect more deeply, take more have more control, have more information and and hopefully build something that is long, longer lasting. Instead of just relying on Netflix or even even PBS to anoint us with the avenues that we that we're looking for, we can build them ourselves.

Keith Maitland 39:17 I I love your sentiment that we have the power, and that's there are voices that they're trying to shut down. And what you're saying about taking it back to this kind of grassroots do it yourself, kind of ethos that you start out with as an emerging filmmaker, you we all kind of hope to leave in the dust and be in the situation where the people just take take up our films and run sprinkle them all over the world didn't sprinkle us with money.

Reid Davenport 39:41 But when does that hapen?

Colleen Cassingham 39:44 Yeah, that only ever happened for a few people. Yeah, exactly.

Keith Maitland 39:50 But this is a good place to kind of wrap up. I was like, I said, Ben and I, we started out to make this so that emerging filmmakers would have a place to kind of find. And access to people like you guys and to learn what we've been learning is hard won in this industry. What practical advice do you have for emerging filmmakers? And I'd ask you, Colleen, kind of follow up on what you were just saying. Like, that's sounds awesome, right? Go to the convergence. Get out there, get your production company to go book 10 cities. How do you do that? If you're you know, a 26 year old with their very first film under their arm, no relationships, no no knowledge to build on. Do you have any? Do you have any like bread crumbs you can offer?

Colleen Cassingham 40:40 I mean, I mean just in terms of the nuts and bolts, like Google is very powerful, like you don't you know, in many ways, our relationship is about our industry is about building solid and meaningful relationships to like, to grow. But in other ways, I mean, I didn't know anything about booking a theatrical release. I literally just looked it up. I found one person to Toby at the National Film at the National Film Society, who taught me how theatrical works. And I just experimented and did it and found a bunch of email addresses and see what stuck. So it's that kind of just like initiative.

Keith Maitland 41:13 And that's that, this 10 city story you're talking about that

Colleen Cassingham 41:13 was, it was the first time I did it a couple years ago, which was the dry run. And now I'm building from a place of, I do have those, you know, these relationships, and I've gotten to bring them to bear. But I think, I mean, I think the key thing, and this is, like something any producer will tell you, is that you have to know who you're making your film for, and you can't just assume the audience will find your your audience will find your film. You have to make that connection for for them, and expect to be doing that work after you make the film, so don't get burnt out and and have a sense of the long tail end when you start. As much as as possible. It's hard to have that foresight when it's your first film, but hopefully listening to this podcast still get a sense of how important that is

Keith Maitland 42:00 Well, let's put that much pressure on the podcast, but you guys have a lot to share. Read final thought. What advice do you have practical

Keith Maitland 42:08 nuts and bolts for a young, emerging filmmaker, or an old one like me,

Reid Davenport 42:11 Follow your Gut. Don't try to make your Film. Don't try to make a film. If you find the right story, you'll have to make that film. There'll be this sense of longing to make a film, that's what—it will just happen.

Keith Maitland 42:36 I will tell you that sounds like bullshit, but I know exactly what you mean, because, like, that is how I felt watching your film. It's like, God, I need to get out there. Where's it? I need to get a camera. And it's not well. I know you did well with these little rinky dink guys, but watching a film like yours is exactly the thing that kind of gets me up and going and says, Oh, I need to be out there, kind of like finding the story that builds that sense of belonging for me because I want to connect with an audience the way that you connected with me today. And so I didn't mean to say your

Keith Maitland 43:08 advice sounded like bullshit. It

Keith Maitland 43:11 just happened. But I know, but I know

Keith Maitland 43:13 exactly you know. The thing is, the people listening, the people listening who know, who understand that feeling? Those are the real filmmakers, right? Those are the people who get like, follow your gut. You know, doesn't mean like, go left or right at a fork in the road. It means you're literally drawn forward by the hunger to get out and say something, or to meet people or to find a connection. I'm gonna leave our conversation inspired. I can't wait for the film to go wide on indie lens,

Colleen Cassingham 43:45 and you can catch virtual screenings throughout the rest of the summer.

Keith Maitland 43:49 What does that mean? Virtual screening

Colleen Cassingham 43:50 so you can go to life after film.com/screenings, and you'll see a list of our in person screenings and our virtual screenings, which are hosted on gather, but run by us.And Yeah

Reid Davenport 44:01 Once again, that's lifeafterfilm.com/screenings

Keith Maitland 44:10 You Guys are good. I need to you're listening to Doc walks.

Keith Maitland 44:15 Take a page out of these two books. We are taking sponsorship, guys.

Keith Maitland 44:23 It's been a super pleasure. Can I go buy you as a drink?

Keith Maitland 44:26 Yeah, Absolutely

Keith Maitland 44:28 All right back to the lobby. We'll see you guys next time on docwalks.

Ben Steinbauer 44:33 So that was Reid and Colleen with you at the AFS cinema. I again, am super jealous I missed that one. The film is beautiful, and it's a topic that I haven't honestly thought that much about, and I'm really grateful that I got to think more about it through this film.

Keith Maitland 44:49 Yeah, this life after does we talk about it, obviously, but it does some of the things that you want out of the greatest documentary films, which is it makes you think about something. Think about people, put yourself in the shoes of folks that maybe you've been never done before, and for me, that's certainly the case

Ben Steinbauer 45:07 Yeah, absolutely. And you did a great job without me, although it would have been better if

Keith Maitland 45:11 I was hard. It was hard a lot to carry on my shoulders.

Keith Maitland 45:16 Thankfully, Reid and Colleen really did a lot of heavy lifting for us

Ben Steinbauer 45:18 They really did. So thank you to Reid and Colleen for being our guests.

Keith Maitland 45:23 And thank you to the Austin Film Society. Thank you to Lars and to Cody over there, who accommodated our needs both in the lobby and in the green room

Ben Steinbauer 45:32 Awesome. Thanks, Lars, thanks, Cody, thanks.

Keith Maitland 45:35 Sharon at Austin Film Society, who helped set up the introduction to Colleen.

Ben Steinbauer 45:39 And next week, you and I are doing a walk solo

Keith Maitland 45:41 It's just the two of us. Yeah, we're, you know, I've been missing you because you weren't here this week. And we have some catching up to do we do we have some looking back, some looking forward?

Ben Steinbauer 45:53 Fall is in the air. We talk about this time of the year, what that means for documentaries, for production, for our projects, and we hope you'll join us.

Keith Maitland 46:02 We'll see you next week. Doc walks is created, produced and edited by my friend Ben Steinbauer of the

Ben Steinbauer 46:11 bear, hello and my friend Keith Maitland of go Valley.

Keith Maitland 46:16 Thanks for tuning in.

Ben Steinbauer 46:19 Follow us at doc walks pod on Instagram, X and YouTube. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai