EP02 – Look Out For the Ice! – Live From Sundance

05.08.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 2

It’s Ben’s first time in Park City, and despite the freezing temps, he and Keith take to Main Street to kickoff the indie film calendar-year, exploring the 2025 Sundance Film Festival. Man-on-the-street interviews capture the vibrant atmosphere as Ben & Keith seek intel and advice from filmmakers, volunteers, and festival-goers alike. Listen for candid encounters with Frank Mosley, Russell Wayne Groves, Su Kim and more — including a sneeze and you might miss it cameo from Conan O’Brien, who warns us all — “Look out for the ice!”

00:00 Starting the Day: Leaving the Condo

00:08 Walking Directions and Weather Update

00:59 Discussing the Film Festival Experience

02:45 Exploring Main Street and Festival Atmosphere

04:28 Bird Watching and Film Festival Analogies

05:48 The Role of Sales Agents in Film Distribution

08:54 Navigating the Festival: Tips and Insights

09:23 Tunnel Walk and Festival Reflections

11:05 Interviews with Filmmakers and Attendees

20:01 Worlds Colliding at Sundance

20:25 The Impact of Social Media on Documentary Filmmaking

21:40 Excitement for the Future of Social Media

22:24 Meeting Industry Professionals at Sundance

23:00 Challenges in Indie Film Distribution and Financing

23:41 First Impressions of Sundance

24:27 The Importance of Optimism in Filmmaking

30:44 A Conversation with Su Kim

36:28 Wrapping Up Day One at Sundance

Oh, almost forgot my glasses.

We're gonna get outta this condo one day, Keith.

All right.

What do you think?

Keith?

You ready?

Yep.

I'm just plugging in the the walking directions.

Closing the condo door.

And we're off.

And here we go.

Head west on

Deer Valley.

Drive toward Deer Valley Loop Road.

Alright, thank you, robot.

All right.

According to my phone, it is 31 degrees.

Here in Park City, today's high is 31 degrees, so this

is as warm as it is gonna get.

The low is 15 degrees, which is not so bad.

'cause when we got here last night, I think the low was eight degrees.

It was very, very cold Last night, walking back from the party, I was struggling.

This is almost like a balmy 31.

I feel pretty good

on your left.

You're listening to Doc Walk with Ben and Keith.

Well, is this where we should talk about how you talked me into coming

here and I said I didn't want to?

I am.

I'm actually fairly uncomfortable being in a film festival

where I am not showing work.

I feel like I'm crashing a party in some way.

And so being here to record our podcast makes me feel a little more like I belong.

But I would say in general, I feel a little bit like an outsider here.

Yeah, I could appreciate that.

Um, I do feel like I twisted your arm a little bit and maybe even tricked

you a little bit just so I wouldn't have to wander these streets by myself,

but Okay, Keith, so what are we doing?

We are walking down Deer Valley.

Drive into the heart.

Of Park City and why are we here?

Why are we here?

I always look at Sundance as kind of like the kickoff of the new year.

It's like the calendar year begins here late January in Park City, and what

happens here over the course of the next five or six days in a way, can

kind of set the tone for how this year.

Just may go

right.

And we are here at a pivotal time.

Uh, we just had an election.

There is the threat of AI looming.

There is declining viewership with social media competing for eyeballs.

So it does feel like we're in a particularly transitional

state at the moment.

We're here to take a look around, talk to some people.

We score a few free drinks at some parties, and, uh, kind of fill up our cup.

Start the new year with a little fresh inspira

and really anybody who is here to make a living making documentaries

or indie films is here.

Looking for funding, looking for collaborators, present, company included.

Here we are walking up to Main Street where this all happens.

It's the main artery.

Of the festival and everybody is walking around looking each other up

and down, looking to see who's here.

See, it looks like there's a lot of people gathering outside the Shutterstock chalet.

There's the Adobe House home of Adobe Premiere and maybe some free hot cocoa.

Ooh, I could go for some free high cocoa.

'cause

the Disney Store,

you know, all the indie shit, all the independent artists represented me.

I like how every once in a while we see a guy like this here who is,

um, clearly only here to be skiing,

click clacking and ski boots up Main Street.

We are passing a along line here of people waiting to see a film.

Hi.

What movie are you waiting to see?

It's not a movie.

It's uh, um, it's a panel, Latino panel for, for, uh, emerging filmmakers.

Oh, cool.

Do who's on the panel?

Do you know?

Yui Guzman.

Oh,

cool.

Very

cool.

And there's gonna be speakers like Christina Castine, Ian Rodriguez, Del

Joanna Fernandez, you, Sophia Camargo.

And then at three, it's uh, from the dream to screen the Indie

Filmmakers Roadmap to Success.

Have you been to Sundance before?

My first name

really?

What's your name?

Adrian.

Nice to meet you.

I'm Ben.

Oh, nice to meet you.

Yeah, this is my first time too, so I'm excited to be here.

Yeah.

Oh look, here's a cheer lift for the people who are here to ski, which

is what this town is actually about.

Yeah, I think

there's a gondola that we can take up to the top for free, which would

be a fun, um, fun way to see the town and maybe, um, take the dock

walking more vertical to new heights.

Ooh, look at you.

Should we cross here?

Okay.

I just wanna take note of this bird up here.

It is a black and white bird with a very long tail that my family and

I have seen on trips to Colorado.

And we refer to that bird as a tuxedo pigeon.

A tuxedo pigeon.

And then here's a sign that says birds of Park City.

Oh, we're in a bird watching zone, I'm pretty sure.

And there's

a tuxedo pigeon right there, which I've come to find out

is actually called a magpie.

Ooh, I think I like tuxedo pigeon better, right?

Well, we'll keep our eye out for more of those, including Mountain Bluebird.

Mountain Bluebird.

That's a good looking bird.

Good looking mountain.

Bluebird.

Let's keep our eye out for the red wing blackbird, the black ca

chickadee and the house sparrow

in the house bar.

Okay.

I'm, I'm keeping my eyes peeled.

I like how this is, you're, you're trying your hardest to make this

a podcast about bird watching.

I don't have to try the birds come to me.

Um, okay.

So.

Sundance is important because of selling your film and people

come here, uh, as filmmakers.

They apply and hope to get in because this is the premier.

Festival in the United States where distributors come to watch films.

Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.

It's not that simple.

Obviously you have to have sales agents, uh, PR folks.

What else do you need to do?

Well, selling a film is a lot like selling a house, and so as filmmakers.

We kinda operate as architects and contractors, but there's one significant

piece of the puzzle missing in comparing a film to a house, especially

a spec film, which is when you build a house, you start out by buying a

piece of dirt and then you build up.

But when you make a film, you're on the hunt.

For is the plot of land that this film is gonna call home.

And for the purposes of this drawn out analogy, that plot of land is something

along the lines of a Netflix or an HBO or an international theatrical rollout.

It's about distribution.

And so we need a realtor, or in film festival terms, you need a sales agent.

This is a solid analogy, by the way.

I like this, this house analogy.

The thing about it is it's all in the framing.

Hey.

Keep going.

So we need a sales agent, right?

The much heralded, often misunderstood, but critical piece of the puzzle in any

independent film sale is a sales agent.

And how do you get a sales agent?

Where do you find a sales agent?

How can you get their attention and how can you be first on their

list of priorities at the festival?

That is a complicated and serious bunch of questions.

So that I don't know that I have the answer to.

Let's see, I've made three features, uh, two, which have actually been released

and got theatrical distribution were we use the process you described, which is

that we knew sales agents through friends.

Usually our producers had an in with a top flight sales agent, and we were

able to get the movie in front of them.

And then based on.

What they consider to be their chances of success because they

get paid based on a commission.

So they only need to rep films that they feel like they can sell.

Then they position you to get into festivals.

Um, or I think in our case, we had already gotten into the festivals, you're gonna

premiere and then engage a sales agent.

Most sales agents these days won't take on a project if they don't

know where the premier is, and so.

I think in the old days, the olden times, you wanted to

get your fortune, fortune on.

Yes.

As early as possible.

But the reality that I've, uh, encountered and, and sounds like

you have too, is that sales agents, um, choose wisely the projects that

they'll put time and, and effort into.

And so there's no point in them joining a project until a premier date has been set.

I think.

That sales agents have a harder and harder job.

These days, okay.

There are mega mergers happening.

There are people watching docs less and less, even though it seems like

they're watching them more and more.

The eyeballs are actually quite diffuse because there's so much

programming and the sales just aren't as big as they used to be.

So the, uh, sales agents have a.

Tough job, but so do indie filmmakers.

And the thing that you can really gain from coming to a festival is

building the relationships that will then help you make your next

film and your next and your next.

And if you focus just on selling the project that you've done, I think

you're doing yourself a disservice.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, it's totally, it's a multi, multi-tiered and multi-pronged.

Um.

Value to gain from the festival experience.

I do wanna take note of this new soundscape we're experiencing.

Gonna say we'd be remiss not to mention that we are walking

through a tunnel right now.

This is a tunnel underneath some

prospector railroad tracks.

At least if the mural in the tunnel is to be believed and the sound is amazing.

Woo Tunnel, Sundance.

Tunnel Sundance.

All right, let's keep

going.

We are emerging from the tunnel.

Ooh.

And yeah, it sounds quite different.

No, the festival's about more than sales.

It's about more than press.

It's about more than connecting with audiences.

It's about more than connecting with filmmakers.

It's about all those things.

You know, we all dream of like the kind of bidding war, um, you know,

at the after party at the premier.

But the reality is the sales process starts.

Weeks before the festival, sales agents are engaging buyers trying

to gin up interest in a big sale.

A lot of times what happens is that the decision makers don't come to the

screening, but they send their other colleagues and then so they come back

and say, you have to see Keith's film.

Then it takes a while for the person to see the film, or maybe they

have to consider multiple films, and so then they have to have a

meeting, and so all of that drags on.

For a lot longer than filmmakers generally like, right.

So just like every other step of this process,

you've gotta have a stomach for the uncertain, you gotta be comfortable,

um, in the knowing of not knowing.

Ooh.

The knowing

of not knowing,

I think there's a book called that and I didn't make that up.

All

right.

What are we doing?

Well, we're walking, we're talking so much walking, so much talking.

We are doing a lot of talking and we are surrounded by people here at Sundance.

So why don't we, uh, ask some people on the street some questions?

That is a great idea, and it is also perfect timing because looking down the

street, what I see walking towards us is.

Wait a minute.

Don't we know this guy coming at us here?

That is Frank Mosley.

Frank is my partner on my new dock.

Let's see what Frank has to say about Sundance.

How you doing Frank?

Hey, how you doing Keith?

What's going on?

Do you know Ben Stein Bauer?

No, I don't.

I was just snow treating you right now.

I'm freezing.

I hate it.

I'm doing great.

So Frank, we're here at the 2025 Sundance Film Festival.

Tell us, uh, what, what, how's Sundance been for you so far?

just got off the plane.

We're already having a lunch, and, uh, did this meeting have some films?

I'm gonna see, I'm in a film.

I'm in premieres tomorrow night.

Fred, what

is the, like, like what's the value of a film festival in 2025, do

you think?

I got a lot of answers for that, but the one right off the bat I'll

say is in-person connectivity.

You know, if more than ever everything is virtual.

So to be able to actually.

Be in a space with people and connect, and I think it gives it kind of a, a thrill

that's been missing for a while, you know?

Do you have any tips for first time filmmakers who are, you

know, about to send their films off to their first festival?

Yeah.

I mean, it's tough.

I, I would say.

Do research on festivals.

You know, not, not every film is right for every festival, you know, and

don't be afraid of the regional fest.

I, I think that's where the heart of, of indie film really lies.

I mean, the first festival outside of Dallas that took one of my films was

Sidewalk in Birmingham, and that was the biggest deal in the world to me.

Getting into that festival.

I mean, it changed everything.

Having a film outside of my home state, it felt like I was a real.

Filmmaker, you

know?

Right, right, right.

It's a big step.

So it's, it's the validation.

Validation and then also knowing that it's a long game.

Just keep making stuff with your community and let the community

expand, you know, hope for the best.

Amen.

I think that's great.

It's, uh, it's good to see, Frank.

You too.

Uh, Frank's got a premiere here.

He is an actor.

He's a lead in, uh, in a film premiering in the next category.

What does that mean next?

It is a, a category supposedly reserved for films that are boundary pushing,

either in form content or both.

Um, and you know, the, you see a range of films in there that

usually a little more adventurous.

I wouldn't say experimental, but they definitely take some risks.

And what's the film called?

Oex.

OBEX.

Oex.

Yeah.

Nice.

All

right.

Lookback.

Oh, look out for Oex.

Look out for opex.

Alright.

Excellent Frank.

Cool.

This is good.

Good.

Meet your, you too.

Yeah, thanks for doing this.

I'll be, you know,

we'll, we'll see each other wandering around.

Awesome.

All See you about 18.

I'll see you.

Should we try and hop on one of these buses or do you wanna just walk back?

I don't mind walking.

It's up to you.

don't, yeah, I don't mind walking.

Let's get her, let's get her steps in.

Okay.

Louis has like,

excuse me.

I see you have a badge on.

Uh, yeah.

And tell us what's going on here and what you're up to.

Just enjoying the festival, man.

Having fun, you know, seeing all the movies.

Are you a, are you a filmmaker?

Uh, yeah, but I'm just here volunteering.

Oh, you are?

Oh, you're a volunteer.

Okay.

What's the volunteer experience at Sundance?

Um, awesome man.

Everyone's really friendly and really nice.

Yeah,

really.

Is this your first year

at Sundance?

Yeah,

it is.

Okay.

It's a lot of fun, man.

You guys should see some

phelp.

You look like you got a place to go.

You're trying to get out of this.

Yeah.

We're going to sea some stuff there you guys.

What are you doing here at the festival?

Uh, I'm actually skiing and snowboarding, so.

Oh, so you're not even here to see the movies?

Yeah.

Oh, amazing.

Is this your first time at Sundance?

Yeah.

Ah, mine too.

Awesome.

How's it going for you so far?

We just got here, we just paid 60 bucks to park, so hopefully,

Hey,

it's fun.

You're

here.

You made it.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Have a blast, man.

Thanks a lot.

Okay.

Do you see who I see coming up the road?

Is that Conan O'Brien?

I think that's Conan O'Brien.

Let's go see if we can go

Conan.

Look out for the ice.

I, we will look out for the ice.

Thank you.

There it goes.

Conan O'Brien.

So tell me who you are and, uh, what you're doing here.

My name's So Haki, um, I'm director, producer, editor of Rocks.

And how do you pronounce your name?

You look like you, Ahmad.

Reza A. Okay.

I'm Iranian.

Iranian.

Okay.

Awesome.

And what film are

you here with?

Through

Rock.

Oh, awesome.

And, uh, tell me what the film is about.

So, cutting through rocks takes place in the northwest of Iran.

It's in a very patriarchal setting, but that's where we meet, uh, our

lead character, who in the past she's been a midwife and delivered 400 kids.

So now the story starts with her wanting to run for a council seat.

That sounds fascinating.

Yeah.

And so is this your first time at Sundance?

Yes, it's our first time here.

How has the festival been for you so far?

It's good.

It's very nice just talking chattering with people, other filmmakers and also,

you know, because we finished a film recently, so we also carry on the, the

burden of emotionally, the burden of finishing the film, the story that we

spent seven years of our lives there.

So being here is just, for me, it's a mix of a lot of feelings of happiness.

Just the feeling of completion and also a little bit, maybe sadness or,

you know, saying goodbye to project.

Right?

Yeah.

It's like a birth.

You, you birth it into the world and now what happens is not up to you.

That's complete.

It's a new journey.

It's completely a new journey.

What do you think about, uh, your chances of selling your documentary,

the documentary market in general?

What are your thoughts about that?

Well, you know, I, I know, uh, and this is something we've been told.

Over and over again that this is not particularly the best market, uh,

over the past, uh, years, especially after Covid or even prior to Covid.

But, uh, we made this film having that knowledge already because for

us, more than selling or buying, Edward is about telling the story.

So it's not necessarily about what happens here monetarily, it's about that you made

the film and that you told the story that you want to tell and that you get it out

in the world as a, as a gift in a way.

Yes.

But, but we all feel also having this optimism that even though it took a

long time to be here today, we have, uh.

Feeling that it will find its audience, it will find its

sales team when it's meant to.

Well, I hope it does.

Good luck.

Thank you so much.

Well, you guys are great.

Yes sir. Thank you for the time.

I really appreciate it.

Appreciate the time.

Uh, good luck with the premiere and I can't wait to see the movie.

Awesome.

Alright, bye-bye.

Okay, so that was.

Mohammed, Reza a, I think I'm saying that right, and Sarah Cocky.

They are the directors and producers of cutting through Rocks, the Iranian film,

and what a cool way to have met them.

We were literally standing in line for a cup of coffee at the

Adobe house, and uh, I went over.

And just struck up a conversation.

And lo and behold, there are doc filmmakers here from

Iran International World Premier, and I don't know what Sarah had to say about,

you know, I think we've, we focus a lot on like what's the marketplace, but you

know, Sarah reminds us like this first and foremost as storytellers, our job.

Is to get these stories out there and to connect with audiences.

And that's, you know, the, what they're hoping happens with cutting through rocks.

I don't know.

Um,

and, and they worked on it for 10 years and there was this

kind of twinkle in their eye.

They were so excited to be, uh, showing their film here and finally

getting it out in the world.

So to talk about it like a birth, that was, that was really cool.

Yeah.

Let's talk to some other folks.

My name is Paul Vez.

I'm a director of photography on the film, the Librarians.

And, um, we're very happy to premiere at Sundance.

It's a huge, huge accomplishment because the movie was literally finished five days

ago and you're hot exported, and you're

basically, I'm talking to you right after the premiere.

Right?

premiered at the Ray.

Wow.

We had a huge turnout.

Like what is it that you get out of being at a festival like Sundance?

Um.

Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, I think the goal for any filmmaker is to meet other filmmakers

and to collaborate with other filmmakers.

Um, we are working in a documentary world, which is underfunded.

Political things are very hard to sell, especially now, Netflix, HBO.

Nobody wants to buy a really highly political movie, so being in a

space like Sundance is like a way to connect to the rest of the world.

Well, congrats man.

This is really huge.

I'm so excited to see you here bumping you.

This is like why people come to.

This, you know, this festival, like you live in New York.

We work together on a commercial.

Yes.

I live in Austin.

Like we wouldn't get a chance to overlap really.

And so it was amazing to see you and you worked on the film that my buddy edited.

Yep.

So I love it.

This is, this world's colliding.

Uh, who are you and what are you doing here

at Sun?

My name is Angelan.

I'm a social media manager for a foundation.

Um, and I'm here to document the Sundance experience for said

Foundation because we support.

Independent documentary filmmaking, participatory civic media journalism

and things of that nature.

And is the question, what are my thoughts on the state of it today?

Well, actually you're a very interesting person to talk to because you are so

plugged into social media, and I think a big part of what's challenging documentary

viewership right now is social media.

So how do you think social media is challenging documentary and changing it?

think the same way that social media kind of made everyone a journalist, it

enabled everyone to be a documentarian to not even just like cinema, um,

necessarily just real time coverage of events that are happening in South Korea.

Like there's martial law happening.

People who are in the Democratic Republic of Congo talking about

the way that mining for minerals is impacting their local population.

So I think anyone who has a story to tell has the means to do so.

Um.

It.

Yeah.

And so that democratization of media is great on the one hand, but then on the

other hand, if everybody's scrolling through TikTok and not watching longer

form narratives, that also feels like there's something missing or that

that's like maybe not a positive, right?

It is a trade off, and I think that maybe the storytellers have

to decide what's more important.

Is it awareness?

Is it a call to action?

Is it.

Considering something in a different perspective that might actually require

more detailed storytelling and you flatten it in 30 seconds or 90 seconds

and you don't want to go that route.

I think all that's valid.

Yeah.

What are you excited about for 2025 when you look at like the landscape

of what's coming, what you do for a living, and what matters to the,

the people that you work with?

When seismic shifts happen and the social media space, and we get it

riles up everyone, not even just people who are creators, but people

who are also consumers feel like they have a stake in, in the concept

that they're consuming and the.

The content moderation, the policies, they're upset about the algorithm.

Like everyone gets really, really in on it.

And it kind of feels like, to me, like that collective evers essence when people

have a, when there's the lottery and it's like a really, really high jackpot.

It's just everyone's, everyone wants to buy a ticket, even if

they know they're not gonna win.

So that's why I feel about social media is like, even if you're not

a concert creator, like you're still, you're still in on it.

You're in the game.

And I'm excited to witness that excitement.

That's a great answer.

Oh, here comes Russell.

Wayne Groves right here.

What's up buddy?

Russell's a an executive producer.

Producer.

Done all kinds of award-winning moneymaking documentaries.

How's life?

Well, we're here at the Sundance Film Festival.

Yeah.

What do you do?

Do you know Keith Maitland?

Keith, this is Russell.

I know of Keith.

You know, same.

I've heard your name so many times and we have a lot of friends in common.

Yeah.

You look like you are not wearing near the amount of layers that we are.

And I'm freezing in all this, in all this.

Pretty good.

So, are you here to catch movies?

To set

meetings, to do a little fundraising

or what?

I never come to to watch movies.

I come to meet with people, talk about stuff.

I'm really interested in two things in particular.

What is the state of distribution in sales in this business for indies in particular,

which is a disaster area in my opinion.

Uh, but I'm just curious kinda where things are headed just based upon from

sales, talking to submarine, talking to X, Y, Z, and talking to other distributors.

And then on the financing side, trying to curate what is a pathway that is a

feasible pathway that mitigates risk for investors, but also curates the

best approach since you could make consistent films and not have to worry

about doing a startup every single time.

Every time.

That's a great way to put it.

Those are the things I'm trying to crack.

Yeah, that's a great way to say it.

This is my first time ever coming to Sundance, really, and I've fought it.

To me, I fought it my whole career.

I was a snob about it.

I didn't want to come unless I had a movie here.

Okay.

And Keith and I started doing this podcast and he convinced

me, yeah, the time is now.

You gotta put that shit away and come up here.

And I have to say, so far everything you're describing is my experience.

I just getting to meet with people and I'm

curious to see what the fires have done to attendance.

It's a tragedy and I, you can't discount the fact that it's gonna

have some kind of material effect.

I am hopeful if there's a silver lining that people are a little bit more open

and emotional and willing to talk about things, and maybe it's a little bit

less crowded so you can actually have some discussions with some people.

But, but I'm looking at it positive either way.

You have to, you gotta, you have to be a hopeless optimist

to, to be in this business.

Yeah.

And sometimes that's difficult to find.

Well, I did say hopeless.

Yeah,

exactly.

Hopelessness is certainly there.

What are you looking to get out of, uh, coming to Sundance?

Um, we out here at Sundance, you know, everybody's out here enjoying themselves.

Unfortunately, I gotta work, but I'm glad to be here and be able to meet people

like y'all and just share the good vibes.

What y'all are,

you, you do have some good vibes.

Yeah,

thanks.

I think very vibe.

Yeah.

What are you doing right now?

Like what, what's your job that you're doing here?

Um, so right now we're just facilitating parking and making sure nobody comes with

their car and try to ram people over.

Thank you.

You know what I mean?

Thank you for

your service.

Absolutely.

But if everybody, everybody could check out my, my music.

I'm on YouTube, uh, chosen a few productions chosen, gore

chosen with the Z-C-H-O-Z-E-N.

I'd appreciate it.

Just to give you guys a little tidy sneak peek.

It's something light like, why don't you, oh, that was horrible.

Take, try that again.

Take time.

Try that again.

I want a coach.

How about a coach?

She wanted Birkins.

Everyone said she wasn't worth it.

If all in the club twerking she was working made me nervous.

She was lurking.

She wanted Birkins shout out to all my homies locked up and

all the people in the struggle.

I feel like there's something huge going on in the world and there's an

enlightening process happening and I think if all of us together as a

using, as a unit and a collective start looking at our differences and what we

have in common, we can go a long ways.

I feel like there's gonna be a great reset.

You know, so what are you guys out here doing?

This is a documentary with stuff.

We are,

uh, we're, we're documentary filmmakers who happen to be, uh, moonlighting right

now as podcasters wandering the streets.

Probably not to get hit by the UPS truck.

Yeah.

Look out this guy's coming through and, uh, we saw you over here.

I don't know.

We, we were feeling the good vibe.

Something drew us over and I'm glad we did.

Absolutely chosen

glory.

See, chose ZEA with a million dollar smile, man.

Keep smiling.

All, all right.

Thank you.

Thanks a lot.

Bless y'all.

All right, you too.

Uh, excuse me, sir, what is your favorite bird?

Stop.

See, that guy just sailed on by.

Ooh.

Like, like he was con O'Brien or something.

Excuse me.

Con O'Brien, what is your favorite bird?

Look out for the ice.

Watch out for that eagle.

excuse me.

Hi,

how is Sance treating you?

That's great.

Yeah, it's wonderful.

Yeah, we're film here, so it's.

Couldn't be any better.

Speak to me about that film.

It's a feature film documentary about this competitive high school speech and

debate tournament that is nationwide, and we followed five incredibly talented

seniors all the way through entire school year to the final tournament that it

happens every year with up to 10,000 kids.

Beautiful.

It's an incredible experience because it really gives you hope for

the future once you see that film.

Incredible.

We need that right now.

Congratulations.

What's your role in the film?

What's your name?

I was producer.

I'm Christophe.

And also cinematographer on it.

All right.

Producer and cinematographer

getting little insights into this film throughout the process because our

good friend Oay Ed was your composer.

Oay Iss the best.

He really, oay is the best.

I did see, uh, you know, a bunch of cuts obviously, but really once his music

one day and they just kind of blew.

Yeah, it really blew.

There's like an unbelievable thing.

Yeah, that's great.

That's, so you

had a great premiere.

Had a great premiere.

Yep.

What are you hoping for next?

What are the next steps for speed for, uh, festival,

festival festivals, but also when we wanna, we wanted the film to get out

there because it is the film that feels so much more important than

it even felt like two months ago.

And this is kind of one of these antidotes because those kids, you can

tell, call you kids, students, almost in adults, you know, but they're 17.

But they are the future and, and they, they will be fighting for

it and everybody should see it.

Yeah.

Alright.

And do you have distribution already?

Not yet.

We're looking, but we had a ton of people there and people seem to really love

it, so we really, really optimistic.

Excellent.

Great.

Optimistic, there's that word again.

He's optimistic.

I know.

Hey,

well, since you're hitting one of our main themes is optimism.

Yeah.

I also need to know Christophe.

Yeah.

What is your favorite bird?

My favorite bird.

I love a blue jay.

I love Blue Jay.

I love blue.

And you know blue.

Well

look at those beautiful blue eyes.

You have Christ off.

Yeah,

that's right.

Exactly right.

That's a perfect match, right?

There we go.

Um,

what do you think?

I think, you know, after first day of Sundance, what struck with me is there's

a real community vibe here in Park City and our instinct that this would be a

great way to start off the calendar year, give a little inspiration to kind of.

Fill our cup and drive forward, I think bears out.

I think we're not the only ones thinking that.

Uh, it seems like everybody I spoke to was really excited and optimistic

about the future.

That should be the name of the, of this episode.

Yes.

Hopeless Optimist.

You can sort of look at it either way.

Are you hopeless or are you an optimist, or are you a hopeless optimist?

And I think in order to do this work, you have to be two of those.

Three.

You have to be optimistic at minimum.

Hopelessly optimistic at most.

And if you're hopeless, you're not gonna get very far making documentaries.

Excuse me.

Is this Jessica Wolfson?

This has been

five hours.

Hi.

Hey friend.

How's it going?

Good.

Look at us in Park City.

Look at you, doc Walking.

I know.

This is great.

This is your first time at Sundance.

This is my first time at Sundance.

I feel very much like I'm crashing the party.

I feel like an imposter and I really hate it.

No you shouldn't.

Just because you don't have a filmer does not mean you don't have to be here.

This is a community of people.

You should go and MOUs while you

Yeah.

Um, but you guys are coming to my weird house party.

We are today.

I'll be honest.

I'll

be on the later side.

Okay.

Can we bring some folks?

Is that all right?

Please?

Yeah.

See

you guys later.

Producer podcast for us.

Um,

okay.

That was great.

I do wanna say like, we're getting long in the day here, but.

I see an old friend walking down the street.

Um, I'm gonna just grab her and see if she'll talk to us or do you know Sue Kim?

I don't.

Okay.

So I met Sue in 2008.

We were both pretty early in our careers.

She has had a phenomenal run as a producer.

I know she made Hale County this morning.

Um, the tube of Thieves.

Midnight Traveler, um, I think she had last year, I think for hidden letters.

And the thing I love about Sue more than anything is that

she always tells him straight.

Great, let's talk to her.

Yeah,

we're walking down the street and who do I look up and see?

But Sue Kim Superstar in the documentary community.

Sundance Stalwart.

Did we meet back in 2008 at the Producers Academy?

Mm-hmm.

I feel like I've known you forever and that makes sense.

'cause that was basically the beginning of, of everything for me.

Same for you.

Yeah.

Uh, Sue, this is Ben Steinhower.

Hi Sue.

So nice to meet you.

I shake your hand, but uh, my hand I understand is holding a microphone.

Um,

so we're just walking around.

Uh, we have a little podcast that we're trying to get started

called Doc Walks, where we go on walks and talk to doc filmmakers.

And, uh, here we are walking around Main Street and we saw you and

we thought, let's talk to Sue.

Is that cool?

What are we gonna talk about?

Let's talk about ducks, let's talk about documentaries.

Let's, yeah.

Are you here at the festival of the film?

No, no film this year I came, um, 'cause I wanted to see films.

Yeah.

And has that been working out?

Have you been able to see stuff?

I don't know.

Like I, I schedule things too tightly and so I, I haven't seen it as

many films as wanted to, but more than when I'm here with the film.

Yeah.

What have you seen that you've loved so far?

I don't know.

You know, I haven't had enough time to process because it's

kind of a spectrum like I.

You know, need to like watch things and then think about it.

And I haven't really had a chance to think about it.

Gotcha.

What are you thinking about when you look at the documentary

marketplace as a producer?

Mm-hmm.

As somebody who is working as an independent, um, what does the

world look like for you for 2025?

Um, I think it's a really challenging marketplace right now.

I think the big thing that.

The big funder for documentaries, you know, we both know, it's

like been public television.

Yeah.

And then with like the new administration, like all of that seems very up in the air.

And so then if you look at like commercial, uh, entities that may

purchase or um, commission films, I think that they're also like, they're

not producing the kind of films that probably you and I are making.

Yeah.

So I think it's, um, it's different, you know?

You know, it's really interesting 'cause when I first started, people

always said to me how hard it was.

When people say that now, but I feel like the heart is just, it's

not a measure, it's just different.

Yeah.

I, I think like the one thing about being an indie filmmaker,

I've learned to be resilient.

Yes.

You have to.

Right?

And one of the things that, uh, keeps coming up when we talk to people

is the idea of being hopelessly optimistic and that that's what gets

you started doing this work and you have, Sue doesn't agree with that.

What do you think, sir?

I don't, I don't agree with that.

Oh,

tell me why.

think I have, like, I try to have realistic goals about

the things that I'm doing.

Like, um, because if you don't have realistic goals,

you set yourself up to fail.

And I'm really, I don't wanna see anything I'm working on fail.

So I, I try to be realistic and really, you know, look at what I'm

working on and what what's out there.

And then really have a plan for that particular project that works for that

project based on the goals of the team.

that is spoken like a true producer.

That p pragmatic is all Get out, Su

No, but otherwise, you know, it, it leaves people in a place where they

feel like they failed and that it's really hard to get yourself back up.

Yeah, I think that's right.

He is making up.

Um, well we are about to head into this party.

Sue's gonna join us, so we're gonna wrap it up here, but there's a million