EP019 – Doc Talks with Dr. Paul Stekler

08.21.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 19

We talk a lot about mentorship on this podcast—so it makes sense that we’d bring a pivotal mentor to both of us into the mix. Join us as we find a shady spot on the campus of the University of Texas as DocWalks becomes DocTalks with Dr. Paul Stekler. We’ll get into Paul’s POV from many angles—from his days as a Harvard PhD, to his filmmaking roots in New Orleans, through his role as the chair of the Radio-Television-Film department at UT, Paul has made teaching and community building a priority. But that hasn’t held him back from building an impressive catalog of films… with SETTING THE WOODS ON FIRE, VOTE FOR ME, LAST MAN STANDING, and GETTING BACK TO ABNORMAL (& more) he’s pushed political perspectives beyond wonky intellectualism into a place full of heart and humor. Paul has played a significant role in each of our careers—as he has with dozens of other filmmakers… and this episode celebrates lessons learned (or missed) in grad school, the many mea culpas of George Wallace, Henry Hampton and his EYES ON THE PRIZE, and the importance of community (not to mention: memories of drunken revelry with Richard Leacock). Take a seat as we replace DocWalks with DocTalks with Austin’s doctor of documentaries.

00:00 Exploring the University of Texas Campus

00:56 Meeting Dr. Paul Stekler

01:26 Paul Stekler’s Impact on Filmmakers

03:57 The Art of Taking and Giving Feedback

13:01 Paul Stekler’s Journey into Filmmaking

14:43 Early Filmmaking Experiences and Challenges

18:41 The Role of a Director in Documentary Filmmaking

24:14 The Art of a Good Shot

24:28 Interview Techniques and Influences

25:27 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers

26:06 The Importance of Passion and Story

27:33 Building a Filmmaking Community

28:44 Transition to Austin and Early Projects

29:42 George Wallace and Political Documentaries

34:27 Collaborative Filmmaking

38:22 Supporting Emerging Filmmakers

42:46 The Power of Documentary Films

46:11 Final Thoughts and Reflections

49:14 Next Episode Preview

Here we are walking through the campus of the University of Texas,

right here in the center of Austin.

It is a cultural hub.

It's an academic hub.

It feels a little bit like home to me.

I spent three years here and then, uh, taught here for two years after, so

there you go.

I spent four years here as an undergrad and, uh, I didn't

teach, but I learned some things.

There's a lot I didn't learn.

I, you know, a lot.

I've had to learn the hard way.

After Art Knocks.

That's right.

This is a maze of old buildings.

I spent a lot of time on this campus as a student, but I also spent a lot

of time on this campus as a filmmaker.

It's Ben pointed out making movie tower, which some of which we stole on campus.

I can admit almost 10 years later.

Oh yeah.

think the statute of limitations is up probably on that deal.

Yeah.

And

where are we walking to

right now, Keith?

Well, we are on our way to the old RTF building and there we are gonna go meet,

um, a friend, a mentor, a teacher, a doc filmmaker, the former, uh, chair,

chair department of the film school.

Yes,

that's

right.

We're gonna meet er, Paul

Seckler.

He puts the doctor in documentary.

Yep, that's right.

I said that.

Okay.

He's a supporter of up and coming filmmakers.

He's at almost every screening and when I started in grad school, I

really got to know him and he became the, uh, chair of my thesis committee

and he helped me make Winnebago, man.

Alright, so Paul has played a pivotal role.

I think he is a consulting producer on Tower.

He did some consultation and my favorite consult piece of consultation, I'll

say for when we're talking to him.

But, uh, he's, he's played a pivotal role in both of our careers and,

and we are not alone in that.

You know, I went to his retirement party a couple years ago.

Yep.

I was, and there was like a cavalcade of this is your life testimonials,

um, filmmakers of every stripe.

Yep.

And many nationalities, uh, and many styles of filmmaking, all kind

of stepping up and talking about.

How Paul had impacted them.

Absolutely.

And leading by example.

Uh, and in my case, he even gave me a check once.

So, uh, yes, I have a very.

A soft spot in my heart for this guy, and I'm really excited

to talk to Dr. Paul Steckler.

So let's do it.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walks with Ben and Keith.

All right.

Paul Steckler.

Ben Steiner.

I'm Keith Maitland.

Hey guys.

And this is not Doc Walks, but instead.

Doc talks.

Ooh, doc doc talks well sits has, doesn't sound quite as,

uh, exciting I think because

I'm gonna credit my son Theo this morning when I told him we weren't going for a

walk, we were just gonna sit and talk.

He said, you should call it doc talks.

And I said, genius.

And it's on something.

It's

got an extra layer of meaning since we are sitting here with a doctor, Dr. Paul

Steckler and where are we right now?

Paul?

Tell us

we are right out in front of the communications a

building, which is where the.

Radio, television, film department that I was part of for 27 years and was

lucky to, uh, be the head of production.

And then the chair of, uh, resides a department that I love.

A department that Benny were part of.

That's right.

And an department that would've been better if Keith had been part of it.

I wouldn't, that is, is indubitably the case that it would've been better

for me if I had been a part of it.

That big word.

I can't speak to the whole department, but Ben wouldn't have known anyway

because I would've been long gone by the time you came around.

I probably would've been one of your teachers.

And that's happened naturally in life.

Anyway.

Alright, Paul.

So as you know mm-hmm.

Uh, uh, this podcast is about, um, us talking to documentary filmmakers

because what we hope people can get out of this is learning about

how successful filmmakers started their careers, how they came to be.

Sure.

Yeah.

Keith and I, uh, as I think most people are huge fans of your

Pivotal film, which is Setting the Woods on Fire, George Wallace,

we are Pivotal fans of that among the many and, and be, I was gonna say, we

don't want to get tied down in just a, a never ending list of, of all the

different projects you've been on.

Yeah.

But would you mind just for, for the sake of our audience, kind of giving us,

uh, some bullet points on, on titles.

That mattered to you from your long career?

Uh, well, I, I love all the films I've gotten to work on, but Eyes on

the Prize, civil Rights series, I helped make a couple of those films.

Um, you know, we did free films that were on a series called POV, uh, Louisiana

Boys, raised on politics, uh, getting back to Abnormal, but New Orleans

Politics and Last Man Standing, which what I'm proud of about Texas politics.

Um.

I helped make the, the choice for Frontline in 2008, the presidential

film, you know, and then George Wallace saying The Woods on fire and vote

for me, and a number of other films.

But, um, you know, and I also have held a lot of people on their films here.

Ben

claims that you helped him win a big Oman.

Um, well, I was his, uh, thesis, uh, chair, yeah, for the original one.

And do you remember the, the story of the, uh, review, the Yearend review

that split the entire room and was.

At least in my recounting, in my memory, a kind of a scandal

in the department for a second.

Do you remember this story?

Yeah, kind of.

It was kind of like all those refused were so ridiculous.

Really quickly.

At the end of every year, you would go in front of all the professors in

the film department and they would essentially sort of grade year, and

you would have to give a presentation of like, here are the films I made.

Here's what I wanna make.

What do you guys think?

And then you would be.

Either lauded or ripped apart and oftentimes both for, mm-hmm.

What were they, 10, 15, 20 minutes?

Yeah.

Something like that.

Yeah.

So we're in this little auditorium.

It's the end of my first year.

I've made all this stuff.

I'm feeling really confident showing, showing all this work.

And then I say, and the film I really wanna make is about this viral video.

And this guy who doesn't know that he's a celebrity and I wanna find him a b blah.

And the first hand that goes up is a, uh, a woman who.

I really didn't like the idea.

Yeah.

On uh, are

you gonna name names here best?

Sure.

Her name is Colleen Smith.

Mm-hmm.

And she, um, had kind of an experimental Ben.

Yes.

And like, I think she maybe just didn't understand my vision

for it because basically she raised her hand and she said.

How dare you, who do you think you are, that you're gonna go

remind this guy of the worst day of his life, blah, blah, blah.

And it just totally stunned me because that was not my intention at all.

And then Paul was the very next hand raised and he goes, I'll

be the chair of your committee and help you make that film.

And the room just went, just divided.

And I remember being like, this is crazy.

And this is a great idea.

This film is gonna work because of this type of reaction.

Um, I have one question.

How dare you.

Yeah.

But experiences like that are very useful for young filmmakers and that you've gotta

be able to understand, first of all, not to be defensive on anything anybody says.

Okay.

But also understand what's useful feedback and what's not useful feedback.

'cause you're gonna get it from all different sides.

And you know, a lot of times, even the craziest feedback,

there's a kernel of something there that's worth thinking about.

You know, that somebody says, this scene stinks.

Okay, well maybe it didn't work for them because something 15 minutes earlier

didn't explain something for that.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, yours was not the worst case.

I mean, I remember, you know, one of my students, you know, having,

uh, an entire room say that his film was, was immoral, was horrible.

And I pulled 'em aside and I was also a thesis chair and I said, don't

listen to a single thing they said.

And it was on national TV on POV.

So it was, you know, the way it was.

So it's kind of like.

It wasn't that they were wrong.

Well, they were wrong,

but, uh, you know.

Well, but you have a good point because, you know, in a room full of

filmmakers that are all gonna tell you how they would make the film mm-hmm.

Whereas like when you have a screening and you get notes, you have to kind of

read between the lines of the notes.

Right?

Yeah.

And think, oh, this reaction is because like you said,

they just didn't understand.

Something previously, or the way that I'm talking about it is rubbing them wrong.

So I need to, you know, figure out how to, you know, exactly.

A little different way.

Yeah.

And I knew just instinctively that I was not trying to make fun of this guy.

So I never had a concern about, about it, ever feeling that bo, that she

didn't know me well enough to know that that was the tone or the invention.

Yeah.

So, yeah,

a lot of art school reviews are like that.

Let's tear them completely apart.

Yeah.

You know, and then let them melt.

Yeah, there's a wonderful independent film called The Sunlit Light, uh, mostly

shot in Norway a couple years ago with Jenny Slate, and it starts off with her

as an artist, getting the shit ripped out of her and review an art school.

So, and then the same people give her fabulous reviews at the end of the

film, and neither of 'em make any sense.

So, well,

I, I have to say like the, I didn't go to film school, as Paul mentioned earlier.

I, I went to ut, I was an English major, creative writing focused,

but I always worked in movies.

And I always knew I wanted to be a filmmaker and I didn't think I was

missing anything by not gonna film school.

But the older I've got, the, the two things mm-hmm.

That I know that I missed out on were, um, and one is on me

and one is on the, the system.

The, uh, I missed out on building a cohort mm-hmm.

Of, of friends and colleagues that were all kind of going through the

things at the same pace, the same time, um, that could rely on each other.

Like, uh, you know, I, I certainly have.

Creative friends, they were all kind, but they're all kinda doing different things.

Mm-hmm.

And so it wasn't like anybody was able to kind of just like

chuck out what they were doing.

Uh, with the one, you know, example, uh, being my friend Patrick Floyd, who

jumped in with me to make eyes of me.

Um, it was things lined up in his life to be able to do that.

But I didn't have a cohort, and I know like Ben's business partner to

this day, Barron is someone you met

in grad school.

In grad school.

Like, so the idea of having a cohort who worked on this morning.

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

But the second thing, and this is the one that I think is even more valuable in

the scheme of things, is I didn't learn.

Through experience how to take notes.

Mm-hmm.

How to give notes and how to, how to kind of survive those tough critiques.

Sure.

You know, that come through the process of filmmaking, uh, film school.

And so when I started making my own work post

mm-hmm.

Undergrad, I was kind of slapped in the face a few times by

reality when, when people had opinions and wanted to share them.

Um, 'cause I hadn't gone through that.

You still don't like notes?

No, I cream real don't.

Well, we share that by, I don't like notes either, but I gotta tell you that.

I mean, first of all, you guys are both wonderful filmmakers.

Well, now, and I gotta be, and that's a great podcast, folks.

Thanks.

We'll see you next week.

Yeah.

And I'm proud to be a peer of yours, but one of the things that I also

like about you is that you both give feedback in a way that's useful.

You know, you're not trying to remake my film or somebody else's film.

You're talking about what the, the inner dynamics are and how something

might work, something might other work.

You know, and it's useful stuff.

It's not like I would do this or I would take this out, or whatever,

which is not useful at all.

I mean, it's interesting to listen to.

Right.

And I, I, I never get people to write anything.

Whenever I go to one of those, you know, big screens with people,

I don't write a single thing.

I say, you know, if you want to talk to me, I'd be happy to talk to you.

Right.

So,

yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and I mean, just to put a bow on that, I think as two working filmmakers.

And, uh, you know, obviously Paul, you've like spent a career doing this.

Mm-hmm.

Like, we watch other people's movies and we think, or at least

I do, I I get excited because I'm like, I want this to be good.

Selfishly, I'm like, I'm rooting for you.

I know how hard it is.

So my objective is never to tear something down.

It's always to be like, of course going keep, you know?

Yeah.

Like, I know this is hard.

You're doing it.

Here's the things that are good, and focus on those.

You know, one thing that was really helpful for me, and along these lines.

Was teaching here for almost 30 years.

Yeah.

You know, because, you know, it's inter, it's nothing easy to destroy somebody.

Sure.

Especially a young filmmaker like the people you were filming back there, Keith.

Okay.

But it's something else to be able to let them make themselves feel

good about what they're doing.

Right.

So that they actually listen to what you're saying and also accept

the fact that, you know, sometimes they're gonna, you know, react to it.

Well, smarter ones do like Ben.

Okay.

And sometimes they're gonna ignore you and you know something.

That's fine.

Yeah.

Not the end of the world.

Well, I, uh, the, those are the two lessons I know that

I've missed out in film school.

I'm sure I'll pick up on more and talk to you, but let's go back to the beginning.

Mm-hmm.

The very beginning, young, Dr. Steckler.

Mm-hmm.

I think you were, you were in, in seeking your PhD when

you first became a filmmaker.

Is that right?

I mean, basically the story is very unlikely.

This whole story about how this got started.

I was in grad school at Harvard, uh, working on my

PhD, uh, on Southern politics.

And, uh, a friend of mine, uh, Tommy was getting an MFA and

sculpture at MIT, which was mostly throwing bricks together with sand.

Uh, you know, he had this thing that he borrowed called a video camera,

and I had a car and we drive around Boston at night with him hanging out

the car, taking pictures or videos, and he said, you know, um, there's

this guy where I borrowed the camera.

You know, and he is, he's drunk a lot and he is really funny.

And he seems to have made films down south.

His name is Ricky Cock and you might like him.

And, and he was, Ricky was the head of like a documentary program there.

So I invited myself over one day and Ricky was drunk and

Ricky was fucking hysterical.

And he was telling all these stories and he liked me.

We must've been talking for a long time.

And he goes, you wanna see a film I made?

And I go, sure.

And it's that George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse store.

Wow.

In Alabama.

I'm watching this film going.

How do, how should do this?

What is this?

And this is not like some doofus, this is like one of the founding fathers of Yeah.

No, he's a giant.

This is Richard Cock.

Yeah.

Who was a famous filmmaker.

Yeah.

He was the drunk guy.

Yeah.

Was spending time with a

schlub graduate student.

And he was,

ran the program

at MIT at the time.

Yeah.

It was a, it was a documentary program.

Ross McElroy came out of it and Ed Pincus and uh, yeah.

It was a fabulous program.

Then a couple years later I was teaching at Tulane.

You know, I talked to somebody and, um, she said, what do

you want to do with your life?

You seem bored.

And I go, I wanna make films.

And she connected me to somebody who knew somebody, knew somebody, uh, who

um, uh, was an associate producer at WYS in New Orleans, and I had lunch

with him and his producer, and I made up a story, it was my dissertation of

how applied politics in the Mississippi Delta, uh, a decade after civil rights.

And they said, if you can raise some money.

Uh, we'll let you be the assistant writer on your idea.

On Yeah, on my idea.

Yeah.

Wow.

You know, we went up to Mississippi, I raised, you know, I don't know, at

10, $20,000 I became the director and, uh, and we made a pretty good film.

Could have been better, but it was a pretty good film.

Uh, and got on New York Times review.

I figured this is easy.

Hey, you know.

And then the next film, I think I raised one third as much

money for a film, but, uh.

Uh, uh, ethnic politics in New Orleans for Amirs Race.

And then both these films got seen by a guy named Henry Hampton, who

I was connected to through his secretary, who was a buddy of mine.

She was a ski bum turned secretary.

And, uh, Henry uh, told me he was doing the series on civil rights and we both

were interested in black politics.

And, uh, he said, you got a PhD from Harvard, you wanna

be an advisor on the series?

And I thought about it for a second and I said, wow, free trips to Boston and stuff.

And I said, yeah, I'd rather make a couple of the films.

And he looks at me and he goes, what a weird idea.

And a year later he hired me.

I was the least qualified person of all the filmmakers.

Wow.

I talked a lot.

Uh, 'cause I was a very confident guy.

And that's the story.

And what was it that w was it seeing that George Wallace footage that

Richard Lee Cox showed you that made you want to focus on films?

Because it, because obviously the, the politics thread makes

sense, but what was it that like.

Turned you on about making films, was

it, I think it was just a combination of stuff.

I didn't, you know, I didn't come out of seeing that wine to be a filmmaker.

Yeah.

You know, but as, as I got into this and I began to look at stuff differently,

you know, I remember right around that period of time I saw Days of Heaven.

Yeah.

Okay.

And I'm sitting in my seat, I don't know if you remember the scene

where, uh, Richard Gere and his girlfriend are escaping from where

he is killed somebody in Chicago.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden it's a wide shot.

Of the train going over a trestle mm-hmm.

With smoke going up in the air and it's exposed for the sky.

Yeah.

Unbelievably blue.

Yeah.

The everything else is unbelievably black.

It's Leo cocky plane.

Mm-hmm.

And I said, oh my God, I've never forgotten.

And as a matter of when I finally met him years later, Terrance Malik.

Yeah.

Terence Malik.

I said, I gotta tell you that one shot, I've never forgotten it.

You know, so little by little, you guys know this as you, as you begin

to think about being a filmmaker.

All of a sudden you see things differently.

You see, I mean, I did a lot of climbing and backpacking when I was a kid.

I never thought of thinking about the light at sunset.

Mm-hmm.

And then I began thinking about it.

Or I'd be in the middle of nowhere and I'd be going, you know, it's not as if

there's no sound here, there is sound.

I just have never concentrated on it, you know?

And so it's an accumulation of, of thinking about that stuff

now, quite frankly, Keith.

You know, in the next life I wouldn't mind going to, to

grad school to learn something.

'cause I learned it on the fly Yeah.

In my films.

And I'm technically useless.

You know, I, I, I think of like, you know, when I was working with Margaret

Brown on her film, uh, the Towns van and film be here to love me, she would

talking about color palettes and things someone have different thought of.

Mm-hmm.

I, I'm sure they're really important.

You know, that's what the sin, its afer is there for, for me.

Right.

You know, but it's just a different way, you know, I have, you know,

the things, I know politics really well, and I know history really

well, so I'm useful for that.

Well, let's talk about that.

'cause it's something that's always intrigued me because

I didn't go to grad school.

I didn't know that documentary filmmakers didn't do every job.

Mm-hmm.

And so I started out, I mentioned this on the walk up here.

I started out with eyes and E which you

Yeah.

Uh, consulted on and, and helped out in the very early stages of.

But I was a producer, director, shooter editor.

Yeah.

Because I thought that was the job.

Yeah.

And it was through me meeting other filmmakers like you in those early days

for me that I realized you could be a director who doesn't hoist a camera.

Sure.

Who doesn't run the reels and the edit.

Yeah.

So what is your role when you, when you, especially in those early days,

and then I'm curious like where, how that's changed over the years.

You know, it

hadn't changed at all.

'cause I'm a horrible shooter.

You know, I have really bad hearing from being in too many bands when I was a kid.

You know, so I'm not a very good sound person though.

I like having those things on 'cause I can really hear that.

But no, it's, it's always been the same.

I just direct, you know, and I'm also, it's like when I brought all those

guys up to the Mississippi Delta in 1982 to film, uh, my friend, uh, uh,

Bob Clark running for Congress as the first African American, uh, state

representative from the rural south since reconstruction, running for Congress.

And they're looking around like, it's like we're on Mars.

What do we do?

And I knew where we were, I knew what was going on.

I could talk to people and that was the skill that I had.

Um, you know, and so I just kept going with that.

It was kinda like, you know, I was lucky enough, uh, you know, even though

I had budgets, they were pretty tiny.

Everybody liked the films I was working on, so they worked basically for nothing.

I think I made my first three films for, I don't know, $60,000

total, you know, for three futures.

And where did those films go?

They all were on national tv.

Uh, I was really, I'm incredibly lucky.

Okay.

Like, you know, the first two films were on national tv, uh, hands of Pick Cotton

Among Brothers, and the third one, uh, um, Louisiana Boys was on POV, you know, but

basically Henry Hampton hired me because I had made these films for no money.

You know, he liked the films, but he liked the fact that I had the moxie to be able

to just do this, have a crew sleeping on my floor, you know, from months on end.

And I would borrow cameras.

I borrowed a beta cam when it came out for a news station in New Orleans where

I was doing the, uh, nightly analysis.

And I said I'd borrow it for a day.

It was like a loaner and I borrowed it for three months.

And that's how, that's how, you know, that's kinda like you gotta do what you

gotta do to be able to make your films.

Yeah.

think that's basically like how I started too.

When I was an undergrad at ku, I just used my dad's video camera that we had and I

made that, you know, my first couple of.

Bad documentaries were, were on that.

So I think your instinct is not wrong that like you have to do

everything you're first starting out.

Yeah, for sure.

But it sounds like you had.

Interesting path towards that because you didn't have that technical

promise, but you had the ability to apply for grants and to raise

money and also to convince people that were much more

talented than me to work with me.

Right.

You know, that's its own kind of skill.

Yeah.

'cause like

that's not easy to do as most people know.

Well, one of the things I love about your films and even the way you talk

about like setting up these projects is there's always a big idea mm-hmm.

That you are driving towards, which is not everybody has that.

Right?

Right.

Like some people say there's a community and I want to go.

Absorb and tell the story of that community.

Right?

Or there's an entry point, there's a door I wanna walk through where it takes me.

I never know the third act of anything I've stood out to make.

But you start out like always like a, a, a theorist, right?

Yeah.

You have a si it's like a scientific method and you're gonna test

that theory through the process.

Is there ever a time where, where you went in.

With a theory and, and discovered that you were far off base and had to totally

reset the, the, the chess board, or have you always been able to kind of mm-hmm.

Follow the, the outline that you've set forth?

Uh, never, always.

Yeah.

I mean, the deal was that, you know, I am, uh, you know, I'm a political

professional, you know, I was a pollster, a pretty high level pollster.

You know, who could have worked on national campaigns.

I ran campaigns.

I almost ran for Office Louisiana, and one of the reasons I was able

to get anybody to talk to me in politics was that I could talk the

talk, you know, Republican, democrat, conservative, liberal, the second I

was there, they knew I was one of them.

And so that, you know, the concepts were, you know, not brilliant.

This is not talking about, you know, like, you know, atomic

physics or something or other.

It's, you know, what's going on in this election?

What are the stakes?

You know, and how does that help a broader understanding of what

our politics is like, you know?

And when the few times that I did history, you know, it was, it was not

all that, you know, dissimilar, read a bunch of books, you know, I would talk

to historians who also liked talking to me, you know, 'cause I was an, you

know, a filmmaker who treated them with respect as opposed to many filmmakers.

Treat them as, you know, they're, they're on the grants, you know,

and a lot of these guys, you know, remain my friends and I like their

books and I like their stuff.

And I would learn from them.

But the basic concept, you know, like I did a film about the Battle

of Little Bighorn, you know, the concept of expansion in the United

States and, uh, displacement of Native Americans and all that.

And I was working with a Native American writer, James Welch, a

novelist who I really respected, uh, loved his books and was amazing working

with him on Indian reservations.

You know, I just learned a lot of stuff, but it, it was in the context

of a basic idea of why are we here?

What are we trying to do?

I never tried to get anybody to tell them regurgitate what I thought.

I wanted to hear what they said they thought, you know?

And I was into long paragraphs.

You know, my idea of a great interview is something where somebody can talk for a

while, you know, and you don't get bored.

And it goes from this point to this point.

It's like a good shot.

You know?

A good shot is I see something over here, and you move the camera here for a reason.

Okay?

And it resolves itself in something I thought.

The same way with, with talking to people.

You know, it's interesting.

In 2008 when I helped Mike Kirk, uh, do the 2008 frontline about Obama and

McCain, he had a completely different way of thinking about interviews.

He wanted to chop them up, sentence, sentence, sentence from different people.

And it took me a while to figure out what he did.

And it was brilliant.

It just, it wasn't what I wanted to do.

And we actually finished that film.

With a long quote from Matt by who's a wonderful political writer, uh, which Mike

said, I'll never finish the film that way.

I'll never finish it that way.

And I kept going, this is a brilliant finish.

And then finally when, when, when we got the, uh, the final cut,

he finished it with that quote.

So I had a little bit of a, you know, an impact on it.

That's great.

Well, I love, you know, your years of teaching I think have

given you such an interesting.

Viewpoint on what it is that makes for a good documentary versus a bad doc.

And I love what you were just talking about that, you know, a shot and

having that motivate the camera, what you're looking for in an interview.

We hope that a lot of, uh, young filmmakers are listening to this podcast.

So what would be some things that, like if you are, if they're

starting out making their Sure.

Early projects, like what makes a good documentary in, in your mind?

Well, Ben, you probably heard me, you know.

You know, talk about this in classes, you know, for me, one of the most

important things is why are you there?

You know, what do you, what do you, is a point that Keith made, what's the idea?

Okay.

I mean, you can be Margaret Mead, an anthropologist, put a camera

down and hope something happens.

You know, and that could be interesting.

Um, you know, but I think it'd be much more interesting if you have

some sort of a reason to be there.

What are you passionate about?

What's, what are you really interested in?

You know, when you first came up with the idea of Winnebago, man, you know,

it was mostly, you know, you know, you know, funny videos, you know, that people

had found and whatever, you know, but there was a kernel of something there.

And I think between that and your detective hunts mm-hmm.

For that guy, you can get this larger idea of why we care about this stuff.

Mm-hmm.

You know, in a personal story, you know?

And so, you know, for me, I'm always looking for a character or characters

who are really good on camera.

Who are accessible, you know, and are really reflective as opposed

to people, you know, a lot of times politicians and important people,

they're not reflective at all.

They're just, you know, they're just talking, you know, they're

used to talking to the news and it's not very interesting, you know?

So I think it's a combination of passion story characters, you know,

it's not brain surgery, you know, and that's what I would suggest.

You know, it's kind of like, uh, you know, it's funny, you had Jesse Moss on.

You know, I've known Jesse since he first started making films, you know,

because he was into Apol Xs too, right?

Like that's how he started was ats.

Yeah.

But the very first film that he came down to show me was, um, the one

about the stock car or the demolition.

Zer.

Guido, yeah.

Yeah.

And it's kinda like, I love it.

'cause the character was great and also it was New Jersey.

Yeah.

You know, so, uh, uh, well, long Island, I think one of those things.

Yeah.

But how did you, so how did you and Jesse connect?

I don't remember.

It's this guy.

He found me.

Um, yeah, he found me.

I mean, it was 'cause of politics.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Um, but, um, you know, I mean, you know, gosh, who was the guy

that made, uh, uh, street fight?

Uh, Marshall Curry?

Yeah.

You know, uh, called me up and he was making a film and we talked a

bunch about how to make films about politics and, you know, his film,

you know, was referred successful.

You know, uh, the guys that made, um, uh, spellbound Yeah.

Showed up in my office here, you know, and just they were sh they were showing,

I think it's, uh, south by, I think.

Hmm.

And, uh, they said, come to see our film.

I like them a lot.

Mm-hmm.

I was going, God, spelling bees kill me now.

And I got in almost before the film started just so I could get out

and 10 minutes then I was crying.

Yeah.

Just, it was such a wonderful film.

So I don't know.

You, um, you know, it's part of a, a, a community of folks.

Mm-hmm.

The one cool thing about Austin was that I used to joke in New York about,

you know, where's the community?

You know, and I knew lots of documentary filmmakers, but it's

not like we all hung out together.

I'd have a drink with Alan Berliner every now and then.

Ugh.

You know, or I'd go to Sea Juth Hal, and every now and then, uh, but when I came

down here, there was a real community.

I didn't know what to expect when I moved here in 1997.

I was a little scary when, you know, is there anybody, anybody I can work with?

Does anybody know how to use a camera?

Mm-hmm.

You know, I, I don't know anybody here.

And not only were there people here.

A lot of them associated with the RTF department at ut, but they were really

talented and they were really friendly and they liked hanging out and it was

a much, uh, more calm way of living.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I worked with a lot of young women, uh, you know, son

Gardado was my editor, Deb Lewis was a shooter, you know, and they were

moms and was five or six o'clock.

It was time to go home.

And I go, are we gonna keep working?

You know, like we are in New York, you know, till two o'clock in the morning.

No.

You know, and once I got off that I was going, you know, it's, that's okay.

Yeah.

You know, I can, you know, go home and watch TV or go out with my,

my, my girlfriend or something, or rather just have a normal life.

Right.

So yeah, the move down here was pretty great.

Yeah.

When, uh, what was the first film you made after you kinda

reestablished yourself in Austin?

Uh, George Wallace.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I'd done a lot of the legwork.

I'd raised a fair amount of the money, uh, you know, from the NEH and the.

The American experience, which sadly is now, uh, you know,

going ka putt with the cuts.

Uh, but I did most of the, most of the production work outta here.

Son Gardado was my assistant editor and set up an office.

And, uh, and we worked outta the building in, uh, in back of us

over here and then over to the Dock Motel, uh, that Ben, uh, those, and

that was, that was the first film.

I mean, I got here in 97 Spring.

We mostly did most of the filming, which was interviews.

Uh.

You know, late 97, early 98.

And then it took us, uh, you know, almost, uh, uh, to uh, January, 2000

to finish when we were in the Sundance.

And that, I mean, this is like your biggest hit.

Well, that's why I was well, was

Yeah.

And, and I mean that, it's a game changer in a lot of ways because, you

know, I appreciate that your early films were on national television.

Sure.

But they were films that were, uh, you know, for the, the first

two were, were Verite films.

Yeah.

And then Eyes on the Prize, you were kind of a part of a continuum

where you worked Eyes on the Prize.

Two and three.

Oh, just, uh, I just on, on Eyes in the Prize two.

But as I was gonna say, Keith, that vote for me was the one that I finished

where we came here with Andy Cofer and Louis Alvarez, you know, and quite

frankly, I'm, I, I've never seen another film like that in terms of politics.

I wish more people had seen it.

You know, it was on I love

Afeni.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, it's, it's a really, quite frankly, it's a really amazing

film, you know, for four hours and the way that it works from sequence to sequence.

So that was done right when I came here.

It was on national TV in October 96, and I moved here literally, uh, on

my birthday, January 3rd, uh, 1997.

Wow.

You know, and then after George Wallace, uh, you know, we made last man standing.

You know about Texas politics in 2002.

Uh, and then I kind of took a hiatus, I did this series called Special Session.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, that in 2005 and 2007, which was a weekly series, you know, during the, um,

um, the, the legislative sessions and we would do little documentaries and some of

them were really, you know, really good.

You know, Deb Lewis shot them son Gudo edited them.

You know, all in the Dock motel.

Yeah.

You know, so I just kind of did what I wanted to do.

Um, you know, and,

and I want to stop you right there, because George Wallace in particular,

if we just talk about that for a second, is incredible because of

its access that you were able to basically convince the biggest racist

in, in the world, in people's minds.

To basically do a Mia Culpa at the end of his life.

Yeah.

That is an incredible accomplishment.

And and that also speed down to your ability to have a relationship

with somebody like that and to gain access, so, right.

I'm really curious about that part, like, and the pitch on

that and, and two Two Wallace.

Two Wallace.

Yeah, that's, it's the same pitch I used with everybody, Ben.

It's kinda like, I want you to tell your story, you know, and you come

at it not as, like, I don't, I don't know what happened back in those days.

You know, it's kinda like.

You know, as filmmakers go, you know, I was kind of an

expert in southern politics.

You know, I knew, I knew, you know, Wallace's story, I knew where he

fit in and he was already doing Mia Copa is trying to, you know,

you know, apologize for his past.

You know, when he got reelected the last time, it was mostly on the back

of African American votes in Alabama.

So the transition had already happened, but I gotta tell you, I can't think

of almost anybody in many, many.

Years of filmmaking that have ever turned me down, you know, to film

them now, things have gotten a lot harder, you know, 'cause now people

are, you know, scared of cameras.

Mm-hmm.

They want to totally control stuff.

Yeah.

But no, for all the, all that time or whatever, everybody, you know, wanted to

be on, you know, wanted to talk to me, uh.

You know, I was much better in, uh, in my professional life talking to

people than I was in my private life.

I should have brought those same skills in.

Well, one, it'd be good to have Deb, uh, Deb and Sandra in the mix, I guess.

Yeah.

Um.

Well, like Ben was saying, George Wallace kind of like, to me, that's, that's when

I became, became aware of you mm-hmm.

Was George Wallace.

Um, I went back, I don't think I've seen all four hours of vote

for me, but I've seen mm-hmm.

Selections of vote for me and then last man standing mm-hmm.

To me is my favorite kind of political doc because there's such, uh, warmth and heart

and a great sense of humor in that film.

But at the same time, it's like a microcosm of the national

story told through the race here between rose and green.

You know, real, one really important thing for young filmmakers is that I've always

glommed on to the people that I work with.

You know, so I, I think George Wallace is a, is one of the best

political history films ever made.

Okay.

But a lot of that has to do with Dan McCabe, you know, my co-director who

edited, who was an amazing editor.

And the reason I wanted to work with him is that I had seen stuff

that he had edited before WGBH, you know, made him change it.

You know, so I could see what he could do without somebody saying, don't do that.

Yeah.

And what he could do with music before somebody said that music doesn't work.

Okay.

And you know, I gave him his ability to do that.

In terms of the humor, you know, that's all Louis Alvarez and Andy Culker.

I've known those guys Yeah.

Since the early 80 or the middle eighties, you know, and

they do films that are funny.

And it never even occurred to me that, yeah, make a political film.

That's fun, you know?

And quite frankly.

You know, they really enlightened me in that, you know, all the

campaigns that I work with were so surreal and dysfunctional.

You know, that if you could even laugh, you'd shoot yourself.

So why not have that as part of the film too, you know?

So I learned from the people that I worked with, you know, and glommed onto the,

you talked about what you learned from your collaborators.

What do you think your collaborators have learned from you?

You'd have to ask them.

I don't know.

It's kinda like, you know, most people that I've worked with have

wanted to work with me again.

I think they.

Yeah, maybe just like the passion, um, you know, and just the energy

that I, that I had making those films.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, and like I said, it's kind of like, it's always been a

very collaborative process, Keith, and, which is the way I wanted it.

And it's not like I'm a dictator who knows everything.

At the same time I realized that somebody has to make a decision.

Yeah.

You know, and so that's what you're there for.

And even if your decision is wrong, it's a decision.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and so you don't force people to anything.

You know, I treasure the fact that when we were making last man standing, uh,

you know, we're, we're driving all over the state to shoot it's long drives,

and Deb Lewis the cinematographer, was always in the front seat and we'd just

be talking about where are we going?

Why are we going there?

How does it fit into things?

How does it fit into Texas politics?

So that when we were there, I totally trusted her, you know,

giving her little bits of directions.

You know, there's a shot in last man standing.

Or we're over in a mall in, um, maybe it's Galveston.

Um, uh, it's the, the dream team of Democrats in 2002, which was a, you

know, was Tony Sanchez was terrible, you know, go patrol candidate,

the democratic dream, you know, ter, there's stern off in a mall.

There's nobody there, you know, and there's a large American woman

who's catering it in the mall and she goes, pretty good crowd today.

Pretty good crowd.

Okay.

And Deb, just.

Let's her talk and this goes like this, and all you see is two old dudes,

the peck of their heads on a bench.

I mean, it's like, it's a hall of fame shot.

Okay.

That's because we talked, you know, we talked about the fact this

is probably, they're gonna lose.

This is not a good, you know, good team.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and, and so you work with people in a way that they

know what's in your brain.

So that you don't have to use an editor's hands, you don't have to have

a cinematographer is shooting for you.

It's um, so maybe that's what they learned working with me, that it's, um,

that I let people do what they can do.

Yeah.

Well I have to say like as somebody who has an incredible academic resume and

ran this, uh, institution for many years.

You have a pretty profound anti-authoritarian streak in you.

Really?

I think so.

At least you, you're, you're a supporter of the independent mind.

Sure.

And you're always pushing for people to grasp on freedom.

Um, and it's one of the things, I was talking to Ben on the walk over here,

you gave me a foundational piece of, not even advice, but support when

I was making towers sitting here in the shadow of the UT Tower, listening

to that bell chime every 15 minutes.

I reached out to you when I first wanted to make that film, and I

asked you for an introduction to the university president or to access the

president's office because I wanted to make this film and I wanted to make

sure we weren't gonna be shut down by some lawyer with a cease and desist.

And you shut me down immediately in that thought, and you said you don't

need permission to make this film.

This is history.

Yeah.

This is everybody's story.

You live in this town, you went to this school.

You can tell this story as much as anybody else until they tell you to stop.

Full steam ahead.

But you know that I probably did that also.

'cause I knew they told you no.

Well, and I appreciate it because what would I have done?

Exactly.

It's so, fuck it.

Yeah, right.

You better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

And the thing is, that's an ethos I had lived by already

in every aspect of my life.

But sometimes you just need to hear the thing you already know.

Yeah.

And you need to know that there's a backstop behind you.

And I feel like, you know.

I dunno.

I felt so emboldened.

Yeah.

By that brief conversation that we had, and then we talked multiple

times throughout the process.

Sure.

Of maybe that film, that film wouldn't be what it, what it was without you, you're

in the credits as a consulting producer and, and probably deserve more than that.

And I just, you know, I don't know.

I want to thank you on behalf of me and my team because honestly,

without that conversation, we might've been stopped dead in our

tracks, you know, the earliest days.

As much as I possibly can.

I've tried to be supportive.

A filmmaker, especially guys like you, who I really respect,

you know, the eyes of me.

I never thought about using animation like that.

And quite frankly, that, and especially Tower, the only other film I can think

of that the animation blew me away alike is maybe, you know, Swick be beshear.

Just this a really high level thing.

And you know, Ben, you were really good in graduate school, you know, and

Winnebago developed in an amazing way.

But what I was thinking was, besides the fact that I want

to be a better person, this.

You know, how can I help people?

Mm-hmm.

Because quite frankly, when I was coming up, there were people like Henry

Hampton Eisen, the prize, who helped me, and they didn't have to, you know,

like they could be, and there were plenty of filmmakers who were jerks.

Like there were plenty of filled me up, people in life that are jerks,

but there were people that helped me who didn't have to help me.

Yeah.

And when I was in a position for that, why would I not wanna help people?

You know?

Maybe they'll make a good film, maybe they won't, but, you know, but

maybe they'll make a better film.

Or an easier way of doing it if I give them some advice.

Yeah.

I don't remember most of this stuff, but people come up to me every now

and then and they thank me and I and I, we kind of remember them.

Well have, I have, I told

you my Steckler story.

We were editing Winnebago man and the Doc Motel.

I was teaching here.

No money, wasn't able to raise any money for Winnebago, man.

I was literally credit cards and bank loans, whatever I could scrape together.

And there was this moment.

Where we had, I think we'd just gotten in the south by, and we needed money

for a poster and I just, I was out.

Mm-hmm.

I just didn't know what to do.

And I don't even remember telling you about that necessarily.

But you were around because I was editing where we all office.

Yeah.

We were there late one night and you came in and I don't even remember you really

saying anything, and you just dropped a check on the desk for 2000 bucks.

Yeah.

And you walked out and I remember.

I just being stunned.

I was just like, I, I can't believe the generosity in that moment.

And it was such a shot in the arm of like, you can do this.

Keep going.

You're on the right track.

And I've never forgotten it.

And that, you know, and, and so I try to do that with other filmmakers.

Not necessarily monetarily, but like, but I try to meet with them and they want me,

I will give anybody advice 'cause it, that was so pivotal to me and I was so kind.

And it was also so.

Um, uh, just inspiring.

It was like, well, back to what we were saying earlier, like, you can do this.

This is hard work.

Sure.

But it's important work.

Yeah.

And I love that you have always been like kind of the center of the film community

here in Austin and you're at every screening and you're, you know, in most

credits for movies that get made here.

And so I do.

I'm.

Working my way to a question, I promise at its best.

What do you think documentary film can do?

You know, listen, I love narrative films, but the thing about documentary

films is that you don't have to have a billion dollars to make 'em okay.

They're accessible, you know, to um, you know, to be able to make, you

know, a very small crew or one person.

And what they can do is they can take you all over the world into

communities that you're not part of.

You know, stories, you know, that.

Get you, you know, much deeper into something, you know,

than the news would ever do.

What's better than that?

One of the cooler things is that, you know, as a teacher, you see your students

doing lots of films, you know, you know, they're student films, but they're,

they're coming from their perspectives.

And for the community here, you know, being even a small part of

films, you know, like your films guys or Margaret Brown's films,

or Heather Courtney's films.

You know, or other really good filmmakers, you know, I get to, you know, help in

a small way to see these amazing pieces of work, you know, that are about

completely different things, you know?

And, you know, I can only make a certain amount of pen.

I've only made, I don't know, 12 films, something like that.

Only, only 12.

Um, last year you made a film with, you just mentioned her, Heather Courtney.

Yeah.

Uh, our great friend.

And a lovely and wonderful filmmaker and human being.

Yeah.

And the film that you made is lovely and wonderful

for the record.

Yeah.

For the record, uh, it's a short film that focuses on the importance of

journalism and, and again, kind of speaks to I think, so many of the films you're

involved with are a microcosm of, of the national story, the human story told

through a very specific and small lens.

Yeah.

That's your most recent completed project as a producer.

Right.

What did you learn on for the record?

Like how did Paul Steckler filmmaker change?

I feel like every film changes us.

Uh, well, you know, first things first.

I mean, I really respect Heather.

She's a wonderful filmmaker.

Her film, where Soldiers come from is an amazing film, and I helped

a little bit on that one too.

But it was, um, you know, she wanted to make this film and

she had absolutely no money.

And I said, well, I'll raise you the money.

That's, you know, a lot of bravado.

Uh, and we eventually raised the money.

Sort of, but I also wanted to go out to the panhandle.

I loved it out there.

I liked Lori Brown, the main character.

What did I learn?

Uh, I don't know.

It's uh, my, I got to watch Heather's method, you know, which is different

than your method, or your method or my method, you know, I dunno

if I can articulate what that is.

She's a one man band, you know, she really does shoot to sound, you know, and talk

at the same time, you know, and it was kind of like, how do you take a character.

You know, over a long period of time.

'cause it was shot over a, you know, three plus years, whatever, and make it

into a coherent narrative, you know, and she was able to work with Karen Sloss,

who I also love, is a wonderful editor here who's, uh, I think I've helped

her on a couple of her films as well.

And it was kind of like, but I've known her since she was a student at ut.

Um, I don't know, it was just, it was a great experience.

How about that?

Yeah.

Um, and um, you know, and working with Heather is different

than working for other people.

Um, and it was fun, you know, being the supporter as

opposed to being the director.

I'm sorry to do it.

I, I have to stop, but I want to make sure that we, that you

get the last word here, Paul.

Sure.

Is there anything that you wanted to talk about or say before,

before, um, you know, it's just that, you know, one of the cool things about

being here guys is that, um, they're filmmakers like you, you know, who I

really respect that I can hang with, you know, whose opinions I. I really trust

and treasure whose films I like, you know?

And you're one of a community of people.

And I think that, I'm not sure that many people know just how strong the

documentary community has been and is growing to be even more, you know, now.

And a lot of the filmmakers that I knew, you know, when they were first

starting out, like you guys have become really, really successful

in doing bigger and bigger films.

You know, Austin is a pretty amazing place.

To be part of this film community.

I wanna sell this.

Like it's, uh, you know, like I'm a real estate agent or something or other.

But to see the difference between what it was like when I came here in 97 and

all there was, was Rick, you know, and Robert and, uh, and a few other people,

uh, you know, and Hector Golan, you know, was, was sort of doing his PBS stuff.

That was it.

And you know, now it's a, it's a really amazing place and being able to see.

The growth of the Austin Film Society and South by Southwest, the

Austin Film Festival, you know, and especially my, uh, radio, television

film program, which has become a nationally recognized great filmmaker

po uh, program, pumping out filmmakers.

Nothing better than that.

Just nothing.

Nothing better than that.

Well, Austin does a pretty good job of patting itself on the back historically,

but the documentary community.

Doesn't get enough, uh, focus.

And I think, uh, you haven't gotten enough focus as, as, you know, foundational

figure and an, and an architect in a lot of ways, a hundred percent to the support

and the growth of, of you, you named.

Them, but I'm happy to rename them.

You know, Margaret Brown, Heather Courtney, Deb Lewis, Sandra

Gardado, Ben to some degree to me.

David Law.

David Hartstein,

David Modigliani.

Yeah.

Uh, the, the, the list goes on and on and there's a whole new generation of folks

kind of coming up that are benefiting from the continuum that you set in motion.

Some of whom names we haven't even heard yet.

That's right.

Um, but they'll probably reach out in the comments and let us know.

You know, if you sat me down, I could probably do a whole list.

Of people whose films I really like, you know, and just seeing them go up.

What

about the people whose films you don't like?

Will you give us that list too?

Uh, no.

Wise Wise, that's right.

We live at a digital age.

It's everything is, is too readily available.

Um, well I know Ben's gotta go.

We could sit here and chat.

Uh, we'll continue to chat.

Um, it's been great being here at the RTF School.

Um, stealing on the campus of the University of Texas, like I've

done so many times before are

shots.

That's right.

And, uh, back to where it all started.

That's right.

Thanks for taking the time, Paul, and thanks for, uh, all you've done for the

film community and for me personally.

I really appreciate it.

Well, thank you very much for making the time, guys.

Yeah.

Cool.

Awesome.

Let's let that bell ring out.

Oh,

oh, that shines of ut you know what they're singing.

We put more money into the football program.

Next time in doc walks, we are doing something a little different.

I feel like I say that every episode.

You do?

Yeah.

But that's what's great is every time it is something a little different.

Um, that's why you keep coming back.

And you know what's funny is you don't say it differently every time.

You say different

in exactly the same way.

Yeah.

You don't say unique.

You don't say rare, unusual.

We're doing something a little different.

We're talking to a journalist.

We're talking to a film.

Critic Reviewer and reporter Austin Chronicles.

Richard Whitaker.

That's right.

And we have a, uh, very serious conversation about the cuts to the

Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

This is one of those episodes that, uh, is topical.

Uh, it's timely and I wish we didn't have to do, quite frankly, because it's,

uh, tough information to talk about.

It is, but I'm glad.

That we get a chance to talk to Richard because he has an inside line on what

is happening in our industry from a unique, rare and special point of view.

Ooh, I like what you did there.

See growth.

We're all growing.

Uh, we hope you grow with us and we will see you for the next one.

That's next time on Dock Walks.

Dock Walks is.

Created, produced and edited by my friend Ben Steinhower of the Bear.

Hello, and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for tuning in.