EP018 – Greg Kwedar Meta On Meta On Meta

This week we’re breaking out of the non-fiction world to talk fictionalization with Oscar-nominated writer/director Greg Kwedar. Fresh off the awards trail with last year’s SING SING, Greg shares insights and ideas about turning documentary style research into based-on-a-true-story truth. It’s a light-hearted walk through Hyde Park, with another stop at a shady creek, as we dig into Greg’s approach to creative partnership (he’s 4-films deep with collaborator Clint Bentley) — and catering his directing approach for different acting styles. Step with us into a free-roaming conversation about creative resilience and the role of friendship and adventure that drives Greg’s process.

00:00 A Stroll Through Hyde Park

00:49 Introducing Greg Quedar

03:00 Greg’s Journey from Accounting to Filmmaking

10:37 The Inspiration Behind ‘Sing Sing’

15:01 Exploring the Creative Process

27:36 The Importance of Colleagueship and Collaboration

28:31 Challenges in the Writing Process

29:35 The Lightning Bolt Moments

30:00 The Role of Friendship in Storytelling

31:31 The Joy and Struggles of Filmmaking

33:15 Preparing for New Projects

35:07 Working with Different Actor Processes

37:57 Documentary Filmmaking Insights

40:15 Reflections on the Creative Journey

47:26 Gateway Films and Inspirations

50:31 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans

Keith, here we are in Hyde Park,

back in Hyde Park.

I love this neighborhood.

This is my daily walkin.

This is like my daily driver walking.

You do love this walking.

You do love this neighborhood.

And I see why.

Look at these purple flowers over here's a, it's beautiful.

It's a beautiful morning.

We got a lot of rain last night, so it's kind of breezy and cool.

My friend Vicki Boone turned me onto this neighborhood 'cause she

said there's a ton of shade and in Texas, like shade is at a premium.

She was

throwing shade at you, but in a good way.

The opposite of whatever that it was.

Yeah.

Oh,

look out Waymo.

She's

shining a light.

Yeah, I think, oh boy, Waymo, we're taking our lives in our own

hands as a, as a, we're confusing

the robot.

He doesn't know what to do.

That's why.

Wow.

I've never waved at a car that doesn't have a driver in it.

I didn't

wave back.

Waveless.

Okay, so what are we doing today, Keith?

All right.

We are walking around Hyde Park.

We are talking to

Greg Quedar,

Greg Quedar, recent Oscar nominee Austin filmmaker

for his beautiful movie Sing Sing, which in my mind is basically a documentary.

It's meta on Meta on meta, as you'll hear in our conversation with Greg.

Yeah, this is a first for us, uh, taking our dock walk into the world of fiction.

But like you said, that fiction is highly based on true story.

So without further ado, here's our buddy Greg Quedar.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walk with Ben and Keith.

Greg Guiar, um, Oscar nominated filmmaker, not the first Oscar

nominee to be on the podcast.

I will point out, oh, wait, who is this?

But certainly the most recent.

Well, then please don't kill Diane Quan.

Okay, I'll, yeah, please don't kill Diane or Kahan.

Korn Cooperman or John Sloss.

Oh, are they all Oscar nominated?

Uh, yeah, I believe so.

Um, but none as recent as Greg, uh, Greg spent.

The last several years working on an incredible project that we

are definitely about to get into.

Um, that film has had a wild ride from conception through release

and a wild ride after release.

Yeah.

We are glad to grab Greg as he's finally getting a chance to exhale.

Right.

Seems like we'll find out, um, knowing him, he's about to launch into another

thing, but that film is called Sing Sing

Well, and also we should point out that Greg is our first guest who is

not actually a documentary filmmaker.

Right.

I mean, I think we're gonna do, that's the doc walks first.

This is the doc walks first.

I think we're gonna debate that today because I think that you actually are

a documentary filmmaker in disguise.

Uh, but you make narrative feature films primarily.

Yes.

Is you, is that fair to say?

No, that's fair to say.

I, um, you know, but I got, I got my beginnings in doc filmmaking actually,

and, and that's where I think most of my early training was, and also what

shaped how I make narrative films.

Yeah, definitely.

Well, it sounds like what you did, and I've listened to a

couple of interviews mm-hmm.

And you and I are also friends.

Yes.

So you've told me some of this before, but it sounds like what you did was start as

a documentary filmmaker and then realize.

This isn't for me.

Like I can, I can like help shape this a little bit more.

Right?

Like what, what is that?

Right?

What, what is it that like made you want to put actors into essentially

live situations with real people?

Yeah.

I think the star I was always aiming at was narrative filmmaking

when I got into storytelling.

But the kind of barriers to entry of doing that.

Are so arduous.

You know, it requires, at least, you know, your perception is that it requires

so many more, you know, hurdles to overcome to even make a narrative film.

But documentary filmmaking, like the access to being able to tell the

stories like right at your fingertips.

Mm-hmm.

And so there is, uh, an easier access point for me to just dive in

and start figuring out who I was, a storyteller, but also those were.

The first stories I we're discovering were in that medium.

Yeah.

You know, as I was becoming a filmmaker,

you did have a real like adventurous start, right?

Like you were, you didn't start as a filmmaker.

You started as an accountant.

Right.

That is an ING student.

Alright.

Okay.

That we're talking, but that's okay.

That part isn't maybe the adventure, but then you went to

South America and you were like.

You were, uh, you bought a bus and you were gonna drive a bus around Mexico.

Does Ben

have all this inside information about who you are?

I did not read the Wikipedia incident.

It's close.

It's close.

It's close.

So, you know, I was an accounting major at Texas a and m, and it was.

Pretty secure.

There was pretty much a guaranteed job waiting for you

if you completed the program.

So take note, if filmmaking isn't working out for you, Texas, amen.

Might be a life in numbers as a way you can get a job.

Well,

I don't know if that still holds up, you know, because I was grad when I

graduated, was right when the 2008 financial crisis happened, and most of my.

Colleagues went into a very uncertain future sense.

Right now.

There are three dudes

walking around doing a podcast about, uh, accounting, and they're, they're

talking about how maybe filmmaking is the fallback that they need.

Well, so the story is, the brief story is I, um, I was also an athlete.

I played rugby at a and m and I was going to play in between my junior and senior

year overseas in Sydney, Australia.

Actually, right before, like a couple days before I left for

Australia, I had an interview with PricewaterhouseCoopers in New York City.

And when I was there for the interview, I was in the financial

district in this lobby on the 50th floor in an ill-fitting suit.

I was like looking down through the glass.

I

like that detail.

The ill-fitting suit.

It would, I mean,

uh, I remember that very at the sensation of just like feeling super

awkward, you know, in the suit I was wearing, looking down at ground zero

and the memorial hadn't been built yet.

If you're looking at that, it's already unsettling.

But there was like a deeper, almost spiritual unsettling around.

Hmm.

The prospect of this being my life, you know?

Right.

Being an accountant, being my life.

So I did the interview and I decided to walk uptown after I was done and

I got to Washington Square Park.

And I just remember being there and being around like, so bohemian

and like, there were artists there, there were hippies, there were

people smoking and uh, playing music.

And I was just like, I love the vibrancy of the city.

I want to be here, but I don't want to be here wearing the suit.

And so I went to Australia and when I was there, it was the first time I was

ever like really, really disconnected from family, from the life I was living.

And when I wasn't training, I just had all this time myself.

And I would surf and, and, and just kind of sit in cafes.

And I pulled out a notebook and started writing really

for the first time in years.

And I just kept hearing this, uh.

High school AP English teacher, Mrs. Smith, who kept on, who told me

years ago that I had an interesting voice and I should keep writing.

And I was like, nah, you know, kind of pushed it away.

But when I was alone down under, it came back to me.

And, uh, can you say that I almost heard Yeah.

The Australian actually there.

And I, and, and after I started kind of being creative again, I started getting

curious, like, was there, like what was going on in the film scene in Sydney.

Yeah.

And you took a tour, right?

And then you, you got pulled in as a pa?

Yeah, I looked up the film school in Sydney.

They got a tour and in the basement of the tour, these two women were,

uh, were casting their short film and just handed me the uh, sides and were

like, Hey, can you read for the actors?

Uh, that have come in.

I was like, I'm just on a tour of a, uh, but okay.

That's,

that's such a great indie film story.

'cause they're like turnip.

Hey, you like

free labor, like, get over here.

Exactly.

You need help.

I was like, yeah.

I mean, sure.

And so a couple hours later I was having a blast with them and they were just

like, what are you doing in two weeks?

We need a pa. And I was like, I don't know what that is, but sure, I'll be there.

And I showed up on their set and like the second I was on their set, I

was like, oh my God, this is for me.

This is it.

Yeah, yeah.

No, no, ill-fitting suit.

It was like going behind the curtain into like a magical wonderland.

But it was more like the way all of these different artists and different formats

of, of creativity we're working together.

So wait, we jumped into talking about, I know, process before we started talking

about what we're actually doing here.

Uhhuh.

So tell us where, tell us where we are here, Craig.

Uh, we like And what are you, what are you seeing on our walk?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Starting.

I'm gonna start with a shot of what I'm seeing.

Yeah.

I've actually, I lived in this neighborhood.

I've never walked on this street before.

We started a stroll outside First Light Books, which is an amazing

bookstore coffee shop that, um, is beautifully curated and kind of

immediately, as soon as they arrived on the scene, it just bam, like inspired

community, like people were showing up.

Pretty much every Saturday we walk with our daughter, uh, to first life.

And so it's become a family ritual.

Oh, that, that's a really cool little, isn't that good looking Alley?

You, that alley?

That's like a, yeah, that alley.

That's like a Terrance Mallick alley.

Look at that.

Like something stirred out of like, Bens the sissy space.

Bad land.

Yeah.

Right.

Wow.

Um, all right, so we're walking through Hyde Park.

Yeah.

You said you live in this neighborhood?

I live in this neighborhood.

How long have you been in Austin?

How long have you been living the Hyde Park life?

Well.

Literally, when I got home from Australia, I dropped out of accounting

in the middle of a test, applied to a bunch of film schools that I didn't get

into, and I moved to Austin in 2008.

Let's go look at these flowers over here.

Pick a winner here.

Who's your favorite?

Hmm.

Not that everything needs to be a competition, but I

like this blend of sort of purple and orange going on.

Oh yeah.

I don't begin to know what these flowers are, but Wow.

You interview either of, you know.

Yeah, that's a, um, purple bun setter and I believe the orange

one is called Lila's Endeavor.

Really?

Are you making this up?

I'm totally making it up, yeah.

I decided, I decided I was gonna start making up birds.

Yeah.

But I got an opportunity to make up flowers

first.

The Bun Setter.

I was like, mm oh.

But anyways, when I was thinking about your projects, you know, sing,

sing, you get access to a maximum security prison Uhhuh and film with.

People who either are currently incarcerated or were right, and just,

you know, the thing with documentary that's so hard is the access, right?

And you, in narrative filmmaking, that usually is taken away, right?

Because you can build sets and create worlds, so you don't have

to get access to things, but you almost seem to go directly at.

Yeah.

Places that are hard to access, like a racetrack for jockey or

border patrol for trans Pecos.

Like, is that part of your creative process is to like find worlds

that feel sort of impenetrable or like that haven't been

like fully explored?

And is that by design?

Like is that something that's built into it or is that something

that's a natural extension?

You know, I've worked with a creative partner for about 15 years, Clint

Bentley, um, that we've written and separately directed two movies

each, but written four together.

And uh, when we were making our first film, trans Pecos, it took us

about six years to make that film.

And a lot of it, a lot of that time was just figuring out how to write

a, write a script for the first time and what was gonna be our process and

what was drawing us to this story.

And you know, I, we had both had a lot of border experience in very different ways.

And I had had this hunch that maybe a, a way in to gain an understanding of

the complexity of the border was for, was through the lens of the people

whose nine to five jobs were to work.

Um.

And quote unquote protecting the border.

And so that kind of instilled a perspective around stories around, you

know, which is that we're interested in worlds that people think they understand

and that are often in plain sight.

But if you slip behind the curtain instead of going through the front

door, you go through a. A cellar door or a side window and look at it

from a different perspective or an unexpected lens, they can reveal an

entirely new complex and maybe more true understanding of that world.

But I had this weird experience where my wife and I went to, uh, big Ben,

and I was in Santa Helena Canyon.

And when I was there, I was just like, marveling the fact that this was a

hotly contested international border.

It's like beautiful canyon walls on each side.

If you drop down from space, you would not know that this was,

um, like a problematic area.

Right, exactly.

You know, it was, it was, you were there on

vacation, like having a great time.

Yeah.

And

uh, and there were all these smooth stones on the bank and I ended up

just picking up a stone and skipping across the water and kind of laughing

at the irony that I was doing it.

In such a sensitively contested place.

And as I was doing that, um, these two board patrol agents came

and like saddled up beside me.

And at first I thought I was in trouble, you know, like I broke some law,

but they didn't say anything to me.

I didn't say anything to them.

And as we drove away, I just had this idea like, what if these agents wearing

this uniform, that's the symbol of so much division, uh, as soon as I left.

What if they picked up rocks and were skipping rocks on the

border wearing that uniform?

Uh oh, that's cool.

And that kind of imagined humanity was like a key.

I was like, oh God.

This could be a way into a story like, we should focus a movie on these agents,

so let's freeze free in that moment.

Yeah.

How does that feeling stand out from, you know, seeing this lady walking

her dog, or, you know, uh, any other interaction you have with another person?

Is there speaking, speaking of,

let's get a shot of these beautiful dogs.

Hi.

Good morning.

Oh my gosh.

Wow.

Wow.

Look at these.

Hi.

Look at these smiley dogs.

Hello.

Ugh.

What are their names?

Po and Cody.

Po and

Cody

love it rhyme.

Oh, that's

beautiful.

So anyway, you have a moment, you have an interaction with a person.

Yeah.

And it grabs you.

It kind of like hooks into your,

your, it just kind of fit a puzzle.

I mean, there was already maybe something in the works consciously,

a subconsciously around a strong compulsion to, to investigate the

border conflict from a narrative lens.

So you sort of saw something that I already had a draw to do as a movie.

Gotcha.

That's interesting.

It doesn't always wor, you know, sing Sing was, yeah, that was my next question.

What was that like free frame picture for Sing Sing?

I mean, I guess a little, it just maybe is a little more fast tracked without

the kind of background experience.

It was based on a trip, um, when I was producing a short documentary

inside of a max security prison in Kansas, and it was my first time.

See you are a documentary filmmaker.

Yeah.

It was my first time ever behind the walls of a prison and on a tour of the

facility we were making a film about something else, but I passed by a cell

and there was a young man raising a rescue dog inside of a cell, which

that moment stopped me in my tracks.

Yeah.

'cause it went against the grain of every expectation I had about prison and that I

was sort of trained to think about prison from mostly the movies I grew up watching.

Honestly.

And, uh, and in that moment I saw, you know, compassion, healing that

was happening in both directions between the man and the animal.

And I saw like, just a different way.

I just knew that whatever that was, was working, I didn't even need to see at.

Played out.

I didn't see evidence, I just saw it happening in real time.

So it was that moment of the inmate with the dog that you were like,

this is, this is interesting.

This is a contrast.

There's a contrast to it.

It just, it

just brought that compulsion, that kind of question of like, I was desperate

to know, was there anyone else out there doing things differently?

Like what I just saw, right.

That, that idea of like conception and misconception.

Oh, here, hang on, let's get

a shot of this bull.

Very loud bulldozer.

That's good filmmaking right there.

You gotta contextualize the sound that you're hearing,

like blasting the microphone,

like when you're, we're more

willing to accept it.

The idea of conception and misconception, like Yeah, like yeah.

Confronting something that, that defies your expectation and recognizes

like, oh, here's a soft spot in my own recognition of the world.

Right?

Like, I wasn't thinking about this.

I wouldn't expect it.

How much of that is about confronting your own like bias and um, and

getting into your take on the world and your take on humanity?

Yeah.

And how much of it is about knowing an audience?

Right.

Will do the same

I think.

Wait, I'm not sure I understand the question.

You're saying what?

Is he Sorry to cut you off.

Yeah, but you're, you're asking like, are you, oh, you did?

No, I'm kidding.

I did, but asking.

Well, okay.

That's great.

Great.

Sorry about I, let's keep the focus on me.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Um, are you asking like, is he writing something for himself to understand

or writing something for the audience?

Well,

I

think

like for, I recognize that moment that he's describing in my own filmmaking.

Right.

And you know, like.

My first documentary was about blind teenagers.

I made that film because I met somebody who worked at the Texas School for

the Blind, and everything he shared with me about these kids defied

my expectation and understanding of what it meant to be blind.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so the more that I was wrong about the thing, the more excited I got.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, and, but at the same time I was having this conversation, we were at a wedding.

The same time I was having this conversation with him, I noticed that I

basically put him on the spot and asked him multiple questions, but the more

questions I asked him, the more other people leaned in, and it became a group.

Yeah.

Moment where I realized, first I realized like, oh, I really want to

understand a thing I don't understand.

Mm-hmm.

But I also saw in that moment, there's an audience

I

see.

Right.

These people also wanna know.

So it's like when did you know that that would, well, I'm asking like people

had the same

Yeah.

Like does he care about the audience from that initial moment?

And part of it's like, what I'm honestly getting at is

bringing

an idea like that to, to your partner,

right?

Because you had this experience with your wife and Big Ben, and

then at some point you call Clint.

Yeah.

And you say.

Here's the thing I had.

Yeah.

But I, I wanted to see where you take that.

Well, I mean, I, I'm generally trying to hold up the, the kind of virtue

of like servicing the audience of one, you know, like the mm-hmm.

Like if you think it's in the same Yeah.

But what would I want to sit in

the theater and watch and what thrills and delights me and confounds

me and challenges me, you know?

And if it does do that, then I, then I just sort of trust that it will.

Naturally replicate and, and, and do that for others.

How much of

a role does Clint play in that?

Well, that's the thing is like so far we've, I mean we, we do with ideation,

like pitch each other things and, and if someone's like, eh, you know,

like I'm, I'm certainly it kind of will kill via killjoy and, and yet.

The ones that we really have gone for.

We've both been pretty, honestly, pretty immediately.

If one brings forward an idea that just like is a lightning bolt, it hits

just as immediately for the other.

And I think I'm learning to trust that more.

Like when, you know, now I'm in a place where you, I do get pitched quite a

lot of projects and um, and if you have to sort of sit and deliberate

about it and think and like try.

Work yourself up to falling in love with it.

Like it doesn't usually lead you to being something to pursue.

Yeah.

I do kind of trust that kind of immediate, like you just kind

of sensation of, of feeling.

Yeah.

When it,

it reminds me of like, like I'm seeing this house for sale here and our realtor

when my wife and I bought our house.

Told us that same thing.

Yeah.

She was like, you're gonna look at like a hundred houses.

Yeah.

And you're gonna walk into one.

Yeah.

And you're just gonna know and you're, yeah.

Like, that's your house.

Yeah.

I think I do.

I dunno.

Is that similar for you guys?

Like when the product you've made, like, did they kind of hit you like

a truck when they, when the, when, when you finally discovered it?

Definitely for me.

I mean, like with Winnebago man.

Yeah.

We just watch that all the time and so, mm-hmm.

When it got the idea started as like a, after the bar we're all laughing

in the living room, Uhhuh, what have we found him, kind of thing.

Right.

But then it kept getting sort of like what you guys are just saying, like,

I was wrong and I kept discovering all this new information that would mm-hmm.

Thrill me.

And documentaries take so long to make that like, you have to stay.

Interested and excited.

And if that excitement starts to wane, that for me is always a huge red flag.

Mm-hmm.

Like, oh, I need to be this excited for two or three years and if I can't do that

now, then I need to find another idea.

Yeah.

I

idea.

I

think

one thing you're saying is that that resonates where, I've always sort of

thought that in like early engagement with the project, that if you have

this sensation that you'll ha whatever questions you have now you'll have more.

When you're finished.

Right.

Well,

sing Sing does one of my very favorite things that great storytelling in

any Medium does, which is that,

you know, what I realized we haven't done though, is we haven't

explained to people what Sing is.

Let's tell 'em just really quickly, what do you wanna explain?

Yeah, I do want to, yeah.

So sing why you set it up and then, then do the thing you said.

Well, and you correct me where I'm wrong here.

Okay.

Um, let's jump into the shade though.

Uhhuh.

Okay.

Call.

So Sing Sing is a scripted.

Fictionalized account of a very true set of circumstances.

It's a story of men in Oing State Prison.

Uh, sing.

Sing, yeah.

In, uh, in Oing, New York.

And, uh, and it's men.

Who are, you know, confronting their masculinity, their choices,

their circumstances, and what they find as a group together

is unity through the process of participating in a theater program.

Mm-hmm.

Finding how collaboration, how art, how humility, how vulnerability can truly.

Yeah.

Make the world a better place, one person at a time.

Mm-hmm.

Well, and it starts Coleman Domingo who got nominated for an Oscar.

Yep.

Coleman Domingo, uh, primarily a two-hander.

Yeah.

And his counterpart in it is the real life person.

Yeah, yeah.

Clarence Macklan, who's experience your dramatizing.

But you're doing that using the tools of documentary, right.

To bring this true story to the screen.

And, uh, and so that's, that was my experience of watching Sing Sing.

I loved it.

Um, I couldn't stop talking about it.

I had loved it from the moment you told me about it.

Yeah.

Months before you went into production, you shared with me a zoom call.

Yeah.

Between your two lead actors and the Zoom call was powerful to the

point where I believe I said to Greg, you don't have to go to all

the trouble of shooting this movie.

You can just screen this Zoom call.

We, wow.

Um, yeah.

It was, he wisely didn't listen to the, I'm glad

you didn't listen to Keith.

Good.

Um, no, but uh, it's also interesting, Keith, you know, we've known

each other a long time, like.

My first film Trans Pecos was premiering at South by Southwest the same time

that Tower was premiering there.

And that kind of was the kind of started the formative process of

us like getting to know each other.

And we've been hanging out ever since.

And I actually had the idea for Sing Sing way back a few months before TransGas

premiered at South by, it was in January of 2016 that the idea sort of surfaced.

And the film hit theaters nationwide in what, August of 24?

Yeah.

So that's an eight year process.

Yeah, from,

and then the Oscars were 20, 25th of March.

So nine years.

Wow.

In total.

Yeah.

The world was like, came very fully formed.

The opportunities with characters, but not like where to focus the

movie on, on which characters.

'cause the reality was that we learned early on is that you can make a movie

about any one of the men in that program.

Mm-hmm.

Uh.

And we really struggled with focus, like how to focus the structure of

the film and even how to integrate a lot of what you're talking about.

Like, like the, the different mediums of documentary and theater

and, and fiction storytelling.

All that kind of sat under that umbrella of Of sing ing.

Yeah, it's meta on meta.

Oh yeah, meta.

'cause you're reenacting, like in the case of the parole board

hearing that was an actual.

You're taking effectively the transcript that actually happened.

Yeah.

Having an actor Right.

Perform it with other actors, but in the place where it occurred right around

the construct of a theater program.

Yeah.

That did actually happen.

That with the play that they, that was performed in 2005 at Sing Sing.

That we reprised on the film set with most of the original cast that was there

inside sinking at the time that came back.

So, but I was, what I was gonna say about you, Keith, was, I remember

sort of several sort of chapters of talking about this film with you.

One, when I first had come across the idea, you were hugely encouraging.

You were just like, that's a movie.

You know, like, it was like a very much like, wow.

You know, like you felt, you felt like the.

The thrill that I felt around, like first discovering it as a concept.

And we would then go on and Clint and I would work with a lot of the

real life men and you know, very similar kind of interview capacities.

We just didn't have cameras or microphones or anything like that, you know.

And then, uh, we also became volunteer teachers and we taught

inside the prison ourselves.

And we would go, we would go away and we would then be like,

okay, we're the filmmakers now we'll put on our writing hat.

And we'll try to translate what we saw and felt onto a page.

And then anytime we would give a script to someone.

You read one of our earlier drafts.

Yep.

And yours was not, it was like, most people who read earlier drafts of ours was

just like, I love the movie you're trying to make, but this doesn't feel like it.

You know?

It just felt like, honestly, it felt like an imitation of, of.

Whatever we were actually experiencing.

Mm. So like it wasn't how the prisoners actually.

Well, and what I remember of that is that Greg was so, um,

you get so passionate about your films and you do that thing that.

It makes me passionate, which is you inspire envy in me.

I say, oh, how did he beat me to this one?

Um, and that's right because you work a lot in documentary, but

you also are, you write scripts.

Yeah.

You, you know, Keith, you came from a narrative background.

So,

you know, I've enjoyed, like, part of like my friendship with Greg is.

It's a real, it's a colleagueship, right?

Yeah.

So we, we talk to each other about our ideas right?

Quite a bit.

And we, and, and we coalesce around the highs and lows and

there's often lows, right?

So Greg is somebody that I've relied on to kind of bounce ideas

off of and, and share and, and, and I love when he does that with me.

And, and so when it came to, to the early days of Sing Sing, I saw

that that drive and that passion and the fact that he went and.

You guys went and volunteered.

Yeah.

You really put your money where your mouth is.

You put your time in.

Yeah.

You were getting to know these folks and, and the question of like

learning voice and gaining, not just gaining access, but like kind of

being invited into the shoes mm-hmm.

Of the folks that you had observed, right.

You were, you were still in the process of, of figuring that out, I think.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, and the, the, the challenge in the writing process for us was.

One was, again, that question of focus at first, because you could make a

movie about everyone that we met.

We tried to do that, you know, and so, mm-hmm.

It was a true ensemble piece.

It was a far more faithful adaptation of a Esquire magazine article

that that was one of the source materials that we were working with.

And when we would share that, no one could connect to any one

character 'cause it was too broad.

Right.

And so we realized we needed to narrow the point of view, and so we swung.

For the entire opposite end of the spectrum.

And we wrote like a single point of view one character's

journey through the program.

It wasn't even a one of the real life men.

It was kind of a composite character of a lot of the guys that we met.

And that was probably the most fictionalized account that we wrote.

And then people wouldn't connect to that because it was too narrow.

Because ultimately this is a telling story of a community.

And we sort of lost that through this sort of very narrow focus.

And so six years into the.

Six years development process.

I finally had kind of two lightning bolt moments.

One was that it was a story of a friendship, and we had

known these two real life guys.

Uh, divine eye and divine g, who couldn't have been more different from each other.

Came from very different experiences, brought them to their incarceration.

They needed very different things in the program.

Wouldn't have been friends if not for the program.

But because of it became sort of closer than family and uh, it

just felt like through their two experiences you could get a, a very

holistic view of the overall program.

And through a friendship you could be representing a, a community

feeling and then have the ensemble sort of circle around them.

It just came like really one afternoon, almost fully formed

in a notebook and about.

15 minutes, man.

Isn't that so?

Yeah.

Incredible.

Yeah.

Like I love, like when songwriters talk about that.

Yeah.

Or like in the Peewee Herman doc that just came out.

Yeah.

He talks about how, like they wrote once they figured out that

PeeWee's big adventure, what the central conflict was about a bike.

Yeah.

And it was Paul Rubin's actually wanting a bike to ride around the lot.

Yeah.

Uh, in real life.

And then getting a bike that looked a lot like the Peewee Herman bike.

Wow.

That's when he and Phil Hartman and the other guy's name I

forget, saw it figured out.

They were like, that's the conflict.

Yeah.

Peewee Herman loves his bike.

He loses it and the movie is his, is him getting it back.

And they said they rode it in like a week.

Wow.

And whereas they had been riding for months up to that point.

And like,

but you know, nothing, none of that early time is wasted.

It's all, it's all accumulating Right.

To something because no wasted step.

Yeah.

'cause you're, you're, you're synthesizing I've heard that somewhere before Keith.

No.

You're talking about like the overnight success of Right.

Eight years of development.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

You know, and that's like, I just wanna, I just wanna put

a fine point on this moment.

Yeah.

They started a documentary, the documentary introduced them to a, a

boy and his dog that sparked an idea.

Right.

There's a pivotal dog scene in Sing Sing.

Yes.

It's the opposite end of the spectrum from what you witnessed.

Yeah.

True.

Um, and, uh, which wasn't planned well, and I, I want to hear

the story behind that in just a

moment.

Let's the, I I just wanna point out this for our audience, a documentary, a script,

a volunteer experience, another script.

Uh, friends reading your scripts.

Yeah.

Agents reading your scripts.

Yeah.

Probably producers, reading scripts.

Yeah.

And passing on and

getting a lot of rejection along the way and, but knowing that

there is something here Yeah.

And, and ending up with something that this is about friendship.

Yeah.

And the fact that you make this with your colleague and your friends.

I, I don't know.

It's not lost on me that, that it takes all of those steps.

Yeah.

And I think so many of us have ideas as strong as that idea, but

what we haven't always had is the drive to stay with it for, right.

Yeah.

The sticktoitiveness,

you know, usually one of us is a bit up and another is a little down.

Right.

And so having that, that, that, that partner and friend there who's able

to like hold a handout when you're on your butt and is like, hey.

Keep going.

Yeah.

Don't give up on this.

Yeah.

As well as the very brief moments of success can also

be isolating for a lot of us.

Mm-hmm.

And to have someone that you did all this with, that you can high

five on those brief peaks, you know, before you're back on your ass again.

Right.

Is also like, brings more of the joy in the process.

I'm, I'm about to bark on a potentially two experiments of films that I did not.

It originate that were scripts that someone else wrote that

I'm coming on to direct.

And is this the first time you've done that?

First time.

Wow.

Yeah.

And, and so much of like what we were talking about earlier is that discovery

process of the adventures behind it.

So someone's already had the adventure, you know, and I'm kind of coming into

it and there, and yet at the same time, what's thrilling about the moment is.

Is, these are both films that I've deeply identify with, but I never

would've come up with on my own.

Hmm.

You know, and so that, that's the opportunity that, so

there's the trade off there.

Yeah.

You know, I think about it preparing with cast, like to

design experiences for the cast.

Sure.

Yeah.

Talk more about that.

I'm doing a kind of a romantic dramedy that's sort of a college age film, uh,

that I'm hoping to shoot in the fall.

And for the cast, like I'm thinking about like.

Us all trying to sneak into a frat party, you know?

Yeah.

That's cool.

And, uh, and then there's a period that, that these, the cast meets, uh, uh, 10

years later and, um, uh, around a funeral and in, in a, in an old family home.

And I just wanna get in that home and like, we're all making meals together,

like, like recipes remember, like that our parents made for us when we were kids.

Like, there's things like that that, uh.

Uh, or part of it takes place in a, in a big city, uh, that, you know, it's like,

what is your perfect day in this city?

And like experiencing that through each cast member and, and learning

about each other through that.

Like, these are the things I'm more down to do than, yeah.

Are you explicitly working the scenes

and are you keeping track of like the actors.

Like what's working for one, you know, when you're doing an ensemble piece.

Yeah.

I learned that very early on with Trans Pecos, where I, it was a three hander.

Yeah.

And each of those actors had a very different process.

One of the actors was very experiential, like wanted every take to feel like he

was, had done it for the first time.

So he would never do anything the same way twice.

Mm-hmm.

I had another actor who was very interior, so wanted to just.

Spend hours the night before the scene in the hotel room, like going over every, you

know, motivation, every line, every comma.

You know, like, why is that comma there?

What does that mean for, you know, um, my character's, uh, trajectory in this scene.

Um, and then I had another actor who was very a playbook guy.

Like, just wanted to do the scene the way it was written on time and

get it in one or two takes, you know?

And so all of those were very conflicting.

Yeah.

Processes.

Those are hard to put together.

Yeah.

But I, I, I love whatever that alchemy is of like, finding that harmony.

And so sometimes that creates healthy conflict of like, of those needing to

come together and find common ground.

And sometimes, um, it needs, uh, it needs like more compromise

and massaging and like, you know, getting people to, you know, meet,

meet someone like in the middle.

Um.

And, uh, and ever since then, I've just, like, I've, I've always never tried

to enforce a process on an actor, but try to actually ascertain what it is.

Oftentimes an actor will say what their process is if you ask them,

but it's actually not Right.

A real process.

It's like their

idealized version of Yeah.

You just have to pay attention to

it.

And that's funny.

And,

um, well, I wonder if that's where, like the documentarian

that is, that lives inside of you.

Really comes forth.

'cause like, I like the idea of a little documentarian.

Yeah.

Right, right in there somewhere.

A little, little gray hair.

He's sticking outta your chest right now.

Um, the, uh, the documentary turned all our hairs gray.

Oh,

wait a second.

Let's look at this car for a second.

Oh, look at this thing.

I see this car every day on my walks.

I walk this neighborhood quite a bit.

Gentleman,

I believe lives in it.

Yes.

Wow.

Look at, but the, the, uh, signatures

is all over it.

He might be there right now and the back door's

open.

Yeah.

Um, wow.

Thank you, God.

Yeah, we come to this park all the time.

My daughter loves the, the swings and the slides here.

Then I was gonna ask you Yeah, like what Greg's de describing, working with actors

like finding, finding the, the way to connect and to bring to the surface what

you first saw in, or what you foresee in your mind's eye, or what you're imagining

versus what you've experienced like.

How do you, how, what's your take on that as a doc filmmaker who loves verite, loves

being with real people in real instances?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I, I think the closest thing I have to, that is when I did, um, high

Hopes, which is that Hulu show that I did with, um, Kimmel's Company.

Mm-hmm.

And they wanted this, they, they had the world and they wanted me

to come in and cast the characters.

And then the approach was something like a real life version of.

Parks and rec is what they basically wanted, and the way that I saw it too.

And so to me then it was finding the stories that existed already with

this funny group of stoner characters.

Yeah.

And then just working with them so that they could naturally come about,

like knowing that they aren't actors.

There's no way that we could recreate this in like an authentic way.

So what are some funny stories that.

Already exists that we could talk about.

And a good example is like one of the delivery driver guys who has been with

them the longest, their first employee had gotten sent home recently for the

first time in 15 years for being too high because they're, they're coming,

they're, they're becoming more corporate.

And so they're trying to play by the book.

And it had just happened, it happened like a, you know, a

month before we started filming.

And so we had him come over to the boss's house.

And, uh, have the boss basically confront him about it.

And even though that had already happened, it was like real because he

didn't know that it was going to happen.

Right.

And it was based on a real thing.

So, short story, long, like basically I look for things

that are true for the people.

Yeah.

And then put them in situations that will create conflict

naturally that they can react to.

Which is what it sounds like you do working with actors.

Um, I just wanna point out, if you go on a walk with me in Austin,

Texas, especially on a hot day, yeah.

You're gonna end up hanging out in a shady spot by the creek.

Um, this is, uh, one of my favorite little spots here, uh, next to she park.

And I don't know the name of this creek, but, uh, what's

doing job name of the park?

This is she park and after Roy.

Uh, Shi.

Okay.

Chi.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, we walked past the Chie house earlier.

Yeah.

It was old

shy pool.

That's right.

It's amazing.

Uh, we're getting close to the end of our time together.

I know you've got a hard out.

Yeah.

'cause you've got the, the hard work of making movies in front of you, Greg.

It's, look, we've interviewed a bunch of people that we are like

friends with and friendly with.

Yeah.

On this podcast.

But you're really the, the first like, like real.

Here in Austin, colleague and friend mm-hmm.

That I've had a chance to talk to on this.

Yeah.

And, um, I wanna ask you, what are we doing right and what are we doing wrong?

No, uh, this, you know, I do want feedback.

That's a solid question.

You know, like, uh, we want this podcast to be of service Yeah.

To film fans.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, and certainly anybody who wants to know more about Sing

Sing hopefully will find this.

But we also wanna be in service to like emerging filmmakers to people.

Yeah.

Like, like how you felt after your one day of Australian PAing.

Right.

Or, uh, you know, or how, how, you know, Ben felt before he,

uh, you know, got a Yes from UT Film school and how I felt Yeah.

Every day of my career, uh, wanting to understand this business and

this art form and this lifestyle just a little bit better.

And, uh, so I guess I'm, my question is what could we do that could

be of service to that audience?

I don't know.

I mean.

What I liked about the experience was just following our own natural curiosity,

which I think is a signal of, of something being a, a purpose like a, like to

hold a, to like build a career upon is about like remaining a student and

staying alive and curious and so like.

That, not it, not just being based out of the conversation that we just

had, but also like what w we were pay, you know, you were paying attention

to what was happening around us.

Like little discoveries, like along the trail mm-hmm.

Um, is, is actually in service of stimulating the

curiosity of the conversation.

Yeah.

Uh, so I don't know.

I would like keep, keep, keep on trucking.

Um, but I, I, I don't know, I, coming back on the curiosity thing is just like,

I'm still just as much a student of.

What we do as, when I started 15 years ago, like on the way here, I was listening

to a filmmaking podcast interview.

Mostly what I listen to is, along with like current events, news

and stuff, if I'm fascinated by a film, I will go as deep as I can.

Like after I've seen something in the theater and the, all the behind the

scenes nature, the interviews with the cast and crew, you know, that like

feed that, like don't, don't ever feel.

It's kinda like that thing of like having.

More questions by the end is what you started with.

That's similar to, I like said, I think the life of filmmaking too.

Like

and, and just being a student, you're a lifelong student because

that's what you staying curious is what leads you to telling stories

to like, sort of, so you can make up your mind about how you feel about

a

topic.

Yeah.

You know, you asked before when we were walking, like, how do we feel

when we get an idea and like, how do we know it's gonna be a movie?

And you know, you gave your example and Ben gave his his example.

For me, mine is a little bit different.

Only in that I talk myself into and out of story ideas constantly.

Mm-hmm.

And what I realize is, like by the sixth or seventh time I've talked myself back

into it, I realize I can't let go of it.

Right.

You know, I'm a naturally critical person

and so I will beat up an idea Yeah.

To try and figure out what makes it special and what's worth our energies.

Right.

But I'll do it with a sense of, uh, of like.

Yeah.

Filling my, my own cup.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Each time.

And, and, and then my goal is to hand that cup off.

Yeah.

Um, and I've had, I appreciate what you're saying.

I've had some of those lightning bolt moments where I

was like, oh, this is a film.

And then we've gone down a road sometimes for several years

to never end up making it.

Yeah.

You know?

But I think it's like still trusting that instinct to lean in, you know, and, and

at least activate on it and do something.

What is the first thing you can do to explore it and push further?

Whether that's just.

The back and forth questioning of it, that's an internal monologue,

or whether that's actually getting out in the world and starting to put

boots on the ground and really like get a flashlight out and really start

looking at whatever that subject is.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, that's a great answer.

Hey, listen, we're about four minutes from your car.

Okay.

Why don't we start moseying that way?

All that great.

Ben,

I'm gonna get a shot of you guys walking off.

It seems like a nice natural end point

here up there, and just be like, P.

I think there's a shot like this in the third man.

I don't think there is, but um, well, this has been great.

Yeah.

Uh, I also wanna say, okay, here I come.

Here he comes.

We've all had so much fun watching,

uh, wait, you're not asking my gateway drug

question right now.

No, no.

I was to use a a, a Ben Stein Bism.

I wa I was waxing Greg's car.

I was just

telling him what fun it, it's been for all of us here in Austin.

You know, neither one of us put out a movie last year.

Oh, sorry.

On, we just we're developing and making and doing our thing.

Um, but we got to see you.

And Clint kind of take on the world.

Yeah.

And, uh, to go from like taco lunches and big sandwiches to the big screen.

Yeah.

Uh, with Sing Sing, I mean, it was just like, you know, you root for your friends

and you want every movie to be Yeah.

Uh, a success personally and professionally.

Yeah.

Uh, it doesn't always happen.

Yeah.

Um, so, um, when it does, let's, let's, let's all celebrate and,

you know.

No, you've said that a few times and I I really appreciate it.

'cause it's, it's easy to get myopic about an award season

experience because you, it's.

It is incredibly taxing.

Uh, they call it a

campaign for a reason.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Like it's a war campaign.

You know, I traveled every week for an entire year, um, if a good

chunk of my 2-year-old daughter's life to the point where she told

everyone that I lived up in the air.

Um,

wow.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh man.

And, uh, and, and I had a, I have a 18-year-old son as well, and

you know, there's a cost to that.

Just you don't hear it as much, you know, from a teenager, but.

All that to say is like, you can get so wrapped up into what you're seeing

on the ground and looking at, you know, the odds, you know, pickers on, like

who's gonna be nominated, who's not.

You know, just the stress of it all and the pressure, but just to then hear

from your friends, like that it, that it means something to the community.

Just kind of like allows you to step outside of yourself and like

see, um, that all of this like.

Hopefully move some collective needle forward a little bit.

You know?

Oh man, it was so exciting.

I think Keith just said that while I was running to get the windscreen,

but to be in Austin and to see one of our own up there and like, have your

movie talked about and That's right.

Listen to you on fresh air on the town.

Like all of that was so exhilarating in this sort of like, you know,

rising tide lifts all boats.

Yeah.

Way.

And just, you're the, you're such a great guy.

You know, it was like.

If you were an A-hole, I might have felt differently about it.

Right.

Uh, well spending time with me now that I am a nominated We,

this is

asshole.

Is

this a-hole?

Well, so as we're finishing up here, I always like to ask people, what

was the gateway drug film for you that made you wanna make films?

Well.

It kind of, right as I was discovering film, there were two films I saw, like

a pretty quick succession that reframe like what I thought was possible.

One is, uh, tambien.

Ooh, yes.

Oh, that's, hadn't thought about that in a, a while.

Just a movie that the way is a term that we use of like letting

the world breathe into your film.

It just felt very much like it was inhaling and ex excelling in, in

context of the world around them and inviting the world into the movie.

Um, and then the other was once, um, the single movie.

Yeah.

I've never seen that movie, but Paul Steckler talks

about that movie constantly.

Oh my gosh.

I don't think

I've seen it either.

Oh, I love it so much.

Give us the

elevator pitch.

What's it about?

It's a movie about, um, kind of a, uh, an, you know, Iris Street musician in Dublin

who just mostly plays covers sometimes, but sometimes plays his own songs.

And a, a woman, um, who, uh.

Was an immigrant into the country from Eastern Europe.

Like here's him on the street one day.

It turns out, like before she had to escape her country was a

concert pianist and she starts to encourage him to, to play more

of that music and like record it.

And then they have this sort of wild idea of like, we should make an album.

And they kind of recruit a bunch of other street musicians like

form this band scraped together what little money they have to get

like a, a day or two in the studio.

And they lay down this album, and it's both like an almost love story, but

really it's more like the, the power of friendship and the, and the power of

like, creativity being a healing balm.

Wow.

And it was made for like a hundred thousand bucks, uh, just like.

Very gorilla and, uh, very much like a, just go make a

movie with your friend's vibe.

Incredible.

And it, it went all the way to the Oscars.

It won best original song at the Oscars.

Wow.

Oh, was that

Glenn Hanser?

Is that Glenn Hanser of the Frames?

Glen, okay.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

Um, who's extraordinary?

And, uh, Mar, I think it's Marta ilo is the, um, her name is,

uh, his counterpart in the film.

It's, it's just a wondrous.

It always comes back to friendship and collaboration.

Yeah, it really does.

It really does.

It does.

We have some stuff to learn about that We do.

Yeah.

I

think we can learn a lot from Greg.

Alright.

If only we were friends, Keith one day.

Greg, thank you so much for doing this.

Thanks guys.

This is a blast.

A pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

That

it was Greg Guido and I have to tell you, when he was talking about

divine I and Divine G. Two men from different backgrounds with different

approaches struggling together to find friendship through art.

I felt like he was writing the synopsis of this documentary podcast,

Ben.

So should you be divine, Keith and I'll be divine Ben.

Totally.

Yeah.

Katie's gonna love that.

Oh yeah.

Honey,

I need call your, call your hat guy.

We need new heads.

All right, so Greg, as promised, I hope.

Delivered on some inspiration on, um, some process.

And he's just a good, hey, he's just a great dude.

Like he is one of those guys that just his heart is in the right place.

He cares deeply about people, gets inspired by, you know, these sort

of like very touching human moments, like when he was talking about the

border patrol agents skipping stones.

Like that's such a beautiful.

Inclination, you know,

well, speaking of inclinations, we'd be remiss if we didn't give

a shout out to Clint Bentley.

Craig's, uh, partner in crime and, uh, and writing collaborator and, uh, another

director with deep documentary roots.

See another, another successful partnership.

Keith, we should reach out to Clint.

We should get Clint on the show.

See, well, I was just saying like our successful creative partnership.

Well, no, I, I got it.

I understood.

Do you need me to draw that out on a whiteboard?

Yeah.

Can

we, can we, can we board that up?

The fun of this podcast is getting out and just like talking the

talk, walking the dock, spending time with you, bringing Greg.

Into the mix was just a big cherry on top.

So, uh, yeah, having

adventures with our friends.

I mean, that's kind of, that's why I got into making

documentaries in the first place.

So I, uh, I was thrilled to do that today with Greg to do that with

you, to find all these weird little creeks we keep finding on our walks.

I love, I love finding a creek.

Um, and I love connecting with you folks out there.

If you are out there, if anyone is out there, um, drop us a line.

Come check us out.

Talk to us if you have ideas for episodes.

If there's things you wanna know, there's stuff we're talking about too

much that you're sick of, um, share your thoughts and feedback on our socials.

What are those, man?

Those are our Instagram handle is at Duck Walks pod.

We're on X under the same title, and you can find us on YouTube at Duck Walks Pod.

And, uh, oh, and I've, you know, Spotify and Apple Podcasts and all the

places that you listen to podcasts.

So we're out there.

We hope you're out there too.

Thanks for spending some time with us.

Ben.

Thanks for a great morning,

Keith.

I, I have fun doing this, and I'm so grateful, so thank you.

You're an

asset to every room you walk into and every street you walk down.

Oh, geez.

Well, let's do this more often.

So next week we are digging deep.

This is a, a deep cut, a mentor figure to both of us renowned

documentarian as well as doctor.

He puts the doctor in documentarian

Doctor documentary.

Hmm.

Paul Steckler, Dr. Paul Steckler will be joining us.

Professor Emeritus from the University of Texas Film Program.

That's right.

He was actually my advisor in grad school and um, has been a close

friend of mine for many years.

So excited to get Paul on the podcast.

He's got.

40 years plus of political filmmaking to talk about.

This is a particularly political moment.

And Paul, I think we'll have some insight to share

and we're excited to have him.

We'll be at the University of Texas, uh, where he taught and, um, we

can't wait to share it with you guys.

So stay tuned.

Stock Walks is created, produced, and edited by my friend

Ben Steinhower of the Bear.

Hello, and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for tuning in.

Follow us at Doc Walks Pod on Instagram X and YouTube.