EP017 – Through the Portal with Reed Harkness

Take a stroll with Reed Harkness, Portland-based creator behind SAM NOW, a creative portrait that follows the journey of the Harkness brothers, Reed and Sam, as they search for Sam’s mother who mysteriously disappeared in the year 2000. This walk mirrors Reed’s film, becoming a moving and unexpectedly epic conversation about family, loss, and long-haul filmmaking. This one takes us off the trail, through a literal portal with a detour into a stone-skipping dip in Boggy Creek. This one’s got heart, humor, and a few unexpected turns—just like any good walk (or film) should.

00:00 Introduction to Reed Harkness

00:06 The Artist’s Way Group

01:04 Walking Through East Austin

01:26 Meet Reed Harkness

02:23 Reed’s Filmmaking Journey

04:37 The Mystery of Joyce’s Disappearance

06:43 The Emotional Impact on the Family

09:29 The Filmmaking Process

15:50 Reed’s Early Filmmaking Influences

23:09 From Play to Documentary

24:04 Sam’s Journey and Filmmaking Challenges

25:12 The Emotional Impact of the Film

27:49 Balancing Filmmaking and Family

34:12 Exploring Meaning and Audience Reactions

42:32 Future Projects and Reflections

47:10 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

So Keith, today we're talking to your buddy Reed Harkness, and

you know Reed from

Portland's

and what group?

Well, I know Reed from phone calls primarily Reed and I are together,

are in an artist's way group.

Um, we've been working through Julie Cameron's book The Artist Way, and

that's how we get to know each other.

Um, we're in a group of creative people who all kinda get together once

a week on a phone call and notice I

have not

been invited to this group.

Yeah, no, you're, you are a creative person.

I get together once a week and go on walks with.

These are creative people that get together once a week

and talk on the phone too.

It's a different world

I think.

I like our walks.

Yeah, I'll stick with those.

Yeah.

Well,

if I could figure out a way to walk and talk.

Not that, not that you're inviting me to the group.

No, you're

not invited to the group, but that's okay.

They're not invited to these walks except as individuals.

Which is what we did with Reed right now in this episode.

This is what's happening right now.

World's colliding.

This is favoritism,

but I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation with

Reed Hardness on your left,

you're listening to Doc Walk with Ben and Keith.

Here we are.

We are back at it.

We're walking through East Austin.

We are on the trail.

This is the Boggy Creek Greenbelt.

And so, uh, of course this trail is made famous by Dock Walks, episode

seven, honey Corn Temperament.

Tens of people know this trail from, I think there's a plaque.

Our previous episode, I believe there's a plaque episode up there.

And so we're walking through what East Austin.

It's a beautiful summertime morning, and Ben, I'm pleased

to introduce you to my friend.

Fellow filmmaker visiting Port Lander.

Is that what they call 'em?

Port Landers?

Sure.

Call, call us Port Landers.

Reed Hartness.

Ben Meet.

Reed.

Reed.

So great to meet you.

Thanks for doing this.

Hey, it's good to be here.

Yeah.

And be walking and, and, and see how you make a crazy, futuristic podcast with

a lot of ca uh, little tiny cameras.

The

future is

now

the, we are, we are living in the future, guys.

This is it.

Well, in a way, we are living in the future because people will see this weeks.

After we record it, because we have a number of episodes in the queue.

So the future was now a moment ago.

It continues.

A new future is now again.

Whoa.

And again, this is already getting very meta.

I wanna do a deep dive here, but before we do, I just wanted

to get a, I wanna do something.

I wanna set it up a little bit more.

You, Reid are the director of a feature documentary, say, and now.

That you worked on for decades.

You got funded through ITBS premiered on independent lens.

Did a theatrical run is currently available up on the Criterion

Channel, but it was a long road to get to walking down this path.

Right now, what do you, where did, where did the, where, what was the genesis?

Like where was the beginning for Sam now for you?

Yeah.

Um, the movie starts in this world of a teenager trying to make

their first films, and that's me.

And I didn't, you know, have access to actors.

I didn't have access to good equipment.

I found a camera in my dad's garage and I, you know, super eight camera.

I didn't even know how to use that.

I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to work with film, but

I, but I, but I started trying.

I grabbed my, my, uh, my brother as a, as somebody to be on camera

and started making my first films.

I really enjoyed that process.

So I started making a series of short films.

These are not documentaries, but it starts to document, um, Sam

getting older 'cause I'm making a film with him, uh, every year.

Sam one through five.

Yeah.

In the movie.

It is, it's every year.

So were you guys guys doing

those like in the summer?

I was

inspired by the UP series.

I had seen Seven Up and I was like, there'd be something really

cool if I could just like kind of capture Sam as he's growing.

Um, but in the, the time of making those movies, my stepmom

was like, she was so supportive.

She would just be like, packing up some food or like helping us get ready.

Like she was, um.

She was the ultimate kind of cool mom who would, um, kind of cheer

lead for creative expression.

And, um, I had moved outta the house when she left, but, um, it

just rocked, uh, my family and,

oh, well wait.

So for people who haven't seen it, explain the, the central mystery,

the central conflict of the movie.

Sure.

So.

Year 2000.

Joyce Le just leaves mysteriously.

Nobody knows anything.

Joyce is Sam's

mom, not your mom, but your half brother's mom.

Correct.

Yeah.

And everybody's like, okay, she's gone.

She must have just gone on a personal retreat or something.

She must have needed to go and, you know, connect with.

Her family or like there's, you know, all the normal things come up and

then, and then it starts to get scary.

'cause she doesn't return, she doesn't call, nothing happens.

And the police get involved.

How would say, I don't know how to, we just, yeah, we don't need

to, we would go for it, but like, let's, okay.

Because I don't want, I, I will tell you like, I'm super

excited to talk about Sam now.

I'm super excited to talk about the techniques.

Sure.

The timeline.

The difficulty in funding the landscape, pitching a personal story

like this, what you show people, how you get, keep going on it, how you

know it's over when it's real life.

Like there's so many elements.

Sure.

There's so many

facets.

Well, I'll just give you, I'll just give you the, you know, this, this,

this, like catalyst is like mom leaves, police are called, they get

back to us saying, we found her.

She's not being held against her will, and she doesn't want to talk to any of you.

So at that point

everybody's just like, okay, this is weird.

We don't know what to do with this, but we don't really have another

option, so everybody just lets it go.

And years pass, sorry, excuse us.

Um,

in fact, like three years pass.

And in that time my brothers like started to have all these

problems with school, like, uh.

My other brother Jared is like dropping out.

Sam's struggling.

It's, it's really rough

and, and I have to say as a viewer, it's so hard to empathize with this

character because as a father of two young kids, I just can't fathom the

idea of no matter how in pain you are leaving your children to just

disappearing from your children's life.

In a time when they still need you.

Yeah.

Is really intense.

I've got four

kids and I, I feel similarly, um, but also like I am, uh, a director

and a cinematographer and I have to go away for work sometimes.

And like right now is one of those times that I've been away from my family for

eight days and it's, uh, I feel it in my heart so strongly, it just weighs on me.

Yeah.

I'll also say though, as a, as a, as like a fan of what you've done with this movie.

I don't think we're being asked to sympathize with the character like,

and I think like you, your balance that you strike with presenting Sam's

point of view and really your point of view on this whole situation leaves

like space to say like, we don't understand Joyce's point of view.

And so it comes off without judgment.

I think especially for the first half of the film when it's

really just an open question.

And I was, I don't know.

I embraced the opportunity to.

To not project too much into what was going on until, until the

text, you know, kind of wants to let us in on what's happening.

And I thought, but I thought like that's a testament to you and your edit because

we have a bias against parents who abandon their children, I think rightfully so.

And I think it's like quadrupling So for women, which is like a

story you just don't see in media.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, uh, and when you do, it's, it's, it's a story that makes the news.

Versus, you know, the dad that a abandons the family, which is a

story that is happening, you know, literally in houses we're walking past.

Right now it's far more common.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, and so anyway, I just, I don't wanna get, I don't wanna be a contentious

against, uh, Ben's statement of like, he having a hard time sympathizing, but

it was something I was worried about, like right when it first happened.

'cause I had that initial pang of like frustration and anger as a parent.

As a feeling person.

And then it was kinda replaced with, with something that comes across

through you Reed, because your voice speaks through the film and it's that

you're very tender and you're very gentle in both the way that you handle

the adventure aspect of this, the way that you handle your brother and

eventually the way that you handle Joyce.

Once, once, you know, spoiler, uh, you guys do find her.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean.

Yeah.

So, you know, the film is, is from my point of view, it's like everything in

there is shot from one lens or another.

It's like every format of camera.

Um, but it's, so like, if you could imagine, you know, kind of, um, being an

older brother for a second and seeing your younger brothers, you know, go through

something like this and then you can.

If you could imagine like what it would be like if, you know, your younger brother

was like, do you wanna help me find her?

You know, what would you, what might you say?

What might you do?

Right.

Um, and is

that how it happened?

Did he ask you to help or was it more, were you encouraging him

to go find her or what was that?

It's a little bit, what were those conversations like?

It's, um.

How it came up was, it was a taboo conversation.

Sam had been at this time, you know, three years had passed and he had been

asked a million times by a million people.

Um, where's your mom?

Have you heard from her?

And he had learned to shut it out and just, um, bury, bury it, shut it down.

Just like, no, just don't talk to me about that.

Um, but um.

We had this relationship that had grown in our, our filmmaking, and we'd been making

these Sam films and we had been, um, going on all of these adventures with cameras.

And it was something that, um, both of us grew to bond and, and love.

And, um, so one day I was, I was, I was walking with Sam.

We were actually hiking, kind of like this.

We were hiking up a mountain and, uh, Sam was suggesting a bunch of ideas

for in the next film we were gonna make that were really immature and

involved robots and heroes and stuff.

And, and I I, and we

should probably stop here and say these films, his characters called the Blue

Panther, so he's playing like a version of like a superhero talking about Lucia

Libre.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in these ninja shorts that you guys are making.

That's good.

I like that description.

And he, yeah, so he, um,

yeah.

So these were, these were very, like, like you said, these weren't documentaries.

These were like playful childhood, sort of like superhero films.

Sam's the youngest in the family and, and is also the clown and the entertainer.

And he, he loves to put on a costume.

He loves to put on a show.

He loves to make people laugh.

And he's also somebody who cannot touch into his emotions very easily.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

So, uh,

and so making these films is a way for you to talk about something really deep.

I'm a fricking highly sensitive, uh, individual, and you'll probably

see that in this conversation.

But, um, I feel everything and, um,

well, and we see a, a example of that in the film when you

go on this quest with Sam.

To go find Joyce the your stepmom, his mom who has disappeared, and then

you come back and the family, you find her and same reconnects with her.

And then the family sort of doesn't acknowledge that it happens.

But there's this really amazing tender scene where you get up at a

family gathering and explain to the family what has just taken place.

And you give Sam.

The credit for how brave he was to go do this.

And it's, it's a really interesting moment because you are the director

who's stepping out from behind the camera to give your subject Sam

credit for doing, for doing something that was really brave in the film.

So it's like this really interesting example that's, I don't, I don't,

I haven't seen that really before.

You don't

have to be hyperbolic here, but there are a lot of films where two thirds.

Of the way through the film, the director emerges from behind the

camera and it's almost always to deal with the fact that the end of the

film isn't making any sense to them.

And they've gotta like kind of take over the narrative to kind of write the

ship and realize, oh, the film wasn't really about what the film was about.

The film is actually about this other thing, and I can

explain it to you very easily.

Well, it's like the

filmmaker has the arc, whereas in this movie, Sam.

Has the arc along with you.

Exactly.

So not to

be hyperbolic, but like of all the scenes I've ever seen of a directory

emerging from behind the camera at the two thirds mark, this is the

most organic, like the most effective and the most true version of that.

At least it comes off that way.

So now,

okay, pulling back, I want you guys to understand that,

um, in this time in my life,

I didn't believe that I was making a film.

Okay.

Um, right, 'cause you're young, right?

You're in your like,

mid, early twenties.

Early

twenties.

And the, I also want you to understand that the way that, um, we talked

about, um, you know, finding Mom that came up as a fake film, like

I said, how about the Blue Panther finds his mom, it's a fake film.

That's not like a real thing that would be like.

That'd be like, how about we act out, you know, like, you know something about this.

But I didn't even think, I just, I didn't think that that would ever happen.

I didn't think that we would like, make any, any version of that, except

that Sam surprised me by saying yes, that's what he wanted to do.

So then I kind of followed through on that lead of like, my brother wants.

To reconnect with his mom.

And, um, and then that conversation furthered to, can we do it in two weeks?

And then I was like, well, sure, I guess I'll take, you know,

uh, I'll take time off and I'll just, I'll just make this happen.

And so we, you know,

time off from doing what, where were you in your early twenties?

What were you doing?

You're obviously like.

Have a lot of facility with camera and story, and you're having a lot

of fun and a ton of creativity.

Um, but what, who is Reed Harkness 24 years old?

Where are you and what are you doing?

Dude, that is this whole podcast, but, um, I had been laid off as an animator and I.

Per, I was like doing the stuff I was doing with the Sam films.

I had a camera in my backpack at all times, and I would just be

going around filming everything with a super eight camera.

And, uh, people started to take notice.

I would have these little film shows with my film group, the Tiny

Picture Club, and people started to take notice and hire me for things.

Shout out to The Tiny Picture Club.

The Tiny Picture Club.

Um, amazing thing.

That was my, like my rock band was like a bunch of.

Uh, oddball filmmaker, artist.

Um, we'd put on shows of, uh, silent thematic films with live music, with

bands, and it was a really fun time.

Um, but people started taking notice of, of me and hire me for things.

But

I put everything down to spend this time with my brother and it really

activated this investigative part of me that has always been there.

And I started going around interviewing all my family members and just like

all of that was not documentary.

I did not put on my documentary filmmaker hat.

I was just like, look, how do we understand what's going on here?

How could we even find a lead to, you know, to find her or understand

what happened with her leaving?

That's wasn't documentary.

What it was was just like me trying to figure something out.

Yeah.

And you being a good brother and concerned.

Uh, family member.

I mean, like, that's it.

It's such a lovely impulse, you know, that led you to make this film and

not in a careerist way, you know, like you're gonna use the tools of

filmmaking to, I'm sure you didn't understand this at the time, but to

like really face something traumatic and worked through it with your family.

It gave

a framework there.

There's also something that could be said too, it's like, like I've always

been a very observational person.

And, and in a sense I've always been a cinematographer.

Um, so much so that like, I could just be filming and filming and filming and

I'd be very, very happy doing just that.

And, and, and just that it would be like, you know, kind of a daily exercise

thing for me, a native state for me.

Um, but in this, in this instance, like.

To, to see myself like in that scene that you're describing in the family

room where I'm addressing the family and kind of calling out the, the skeletons in

the closet and the elephant in the room at the same time, you weren't thinking

This will be a great scene in a film.

You were like, I'm just

going, it's just I'm filming anyways and I'm just gonna go do this to happen.

And anyone that's ever, you know, held a camera and started following

through on some inspiration, it's, that's how it works.

It's just you just.

One thing leads to the next thing.

You don't know why you're filming it.

You don't, you don't know why it makes sense or why it's beautiful or why it's

powerful, or why the camera goes to that, but it's something that starts

to happen and that, that's kind of what this movie is, is like the, the

lens gets drawn to certain things.

Yeah.

I want to, I want to slice into what we're doing right now and say.

I'd like to turn back around.

There's actually a little spot next to the creek I wanna go chill at.

Okay.

Um, yeah, it's, it's sweaty.

Yeah.

So there's some shade over there.

Um, and let's talk about, let's, so let's head back this way.

That's incredible.

And what you just said about the camera, finding what it needs, like

the fan, the camera, discovering the muse and the space and, and

drawing in on that.

Um, the camera was a close friend to me at the time, and, you know, I think

that the camera was also like the glue between me and Sam at the time.

Like it was like.

Here is our toy that we go out and we have these adventures with.

So it was like we didn't really know what the camera was doing, you know?

We just knew that it brought something

to us.

Well, and, and I want to just explain for the audience too, that we're not talking

about like just point and shoot, you know.

Uh, non-artistic filmmaking.

Like what the little shorts you guys were making were technically really cool.

And there's a lot of like, uh, overlays that you're doing

and stop motion animation.

And it's very playful.

And it's also like, technically, like you can tell that you guys were

proficient in editing and shooting and concepting stories from an early age.

I was really

jealous watching it.

And I, I like anytime I, you know, we all, not every one of us, but almost all of us.

Uh, who end up doing this professionally in our late forties.

Um, started out with like a Sony Handycam.

Mm-hmm.

Or oops.

Or, or some other like little rinky dink camera.

And speaking of being

technically proficient, being of rinky ding cameras,

um, uh, making movies with our friends, like making little videos, whether it was

with our brothers or with our buddies.

Um, and when I'm both like sad and a little glad.

That most of the movies, almost all the movies I made did not survive.

But if they had, I don't think I would've seen as much like creativity

and planned, um, sequencing and like cinematic treatment.

Um, of what you put together with, with Sam and Sam one and Sam two

and Sam three with the Blue Panther, Sam six looks like it's incredible.

Um.

Can you speak a little bit about that, like the fun and the play

that went into those early films?

Sure.

Okay.

Uh, like if you're gonna rope your little brother into anything, it's

gotta like, have that level of, of play.

I mean, certainly I could have made like high drama, uh, films at that time.

Like I was thinking about really dramatic things, but I don't think that my brother

would've been, uh, very patient for that.

Sure.

And, and so like, I kind of like adapted like to the level

of like, what's gonna be.

How can I, how can I speak these

themes?

So, hang on one second.

We are stopping here for a minute to go into this community garden.

Well, it's a secret pathway to the little creek spot I want to hang out at.

Alright.

But this community garden is pretty sweet.

I was inspired by filmmakers like Norman McLaren Canadian.

Yeah.

Animator and filmmaker and um, absolutely.

The National

Film Board of Canada stuff was really big for me when I was first

starting out.

I love all

those.

Yeah, and, and, and, you know, I could, what I could see from his lens was like

he didn't need very much, he didn't really need very much to tell a powerful

story like Neighbors, which is just like this pixelation animation of like

two neighbors and how they lay a fence between their houses and how they start

to just like evolve toward violence.

Um.

So as a teenager filmmaker, I was like, you know, maybe it, maybe I

can do this thing that I wanna do.

I don't have any money.

Like maybe I can start to tell some, some, some ideas through no crew and, and,

and a camera and, and my little brother.

Yeah.

And at some point it went from play to a documentary.

At some point in there that happened, and I think it's actually that family

room conversation, that scene that we're talking about, which was,

that was the, that was the flip where it was like, wait a minute.

It was like this, this, wait a minute moment.

I mean, I, the truth is along the way, there's always, as you're

rolling, maybe this can be something, maybe this is gonna be a story,

maybe this is gonna be a thing.

But the, but.

What was overriding that until that point was This is for Sam?

This is just for Sam.

Yeah.

This is a contract I have with my brother, which is, I'm going to help you.

And then, you know, of course, like as the movie goes on, that relationship kind of

starts to change in the family room scene.

I, I really start to own that.

I have something that I now.

As a filmmaker and as a family member, need and need to understand.

Right.

It's, um, Sam's kinda gotten what he wants at this point.

He's like reconnected with his mom.

Everything's, everything's settled.

Everything's good.

He's, he's got what he wants, but now it's on me.

And I've recorded everyone.

I've seen everyone's perspective.

Sam hasn't.

Um, and now I have that.

Yeah.

And that's a problem for any documentary filmmaker.

That becomes a problem because you now hold all this information of all these

folks, these my family members mostly.

And what do you, what do you do with that?

In my opinion, that's when you become a documentary filmmaker because

you're like, thinking now, now this is a little bit more like my story

to hold, and I've gotta, I've gotta, I gotta say something about it.

It's a movie about saying things.

Yeah.

And, and when

about confronting trauma.

Yeah.

I mean that's really what it was.

And I, I feel like it's such, you, you mentioned the seven up series

earlier, and I feel like in that it starts with this premise that if

you have, show me the child at seven and I'll show you the adult, right.

And then you, that movie tracks whether or not that theory exists.

Yeah.

And I feel like in this movie, even though Sam is the main

character, and it's called Sam now.

We're also watching you as a empathetic person, a brother,

and a filmmaker, grow and mature.

And I think you, uh, start to understand, like you just said, that this is,

this is a gift that you're giving to your brother and also to yourself

by investigating, like helping your family sort of confront this thing.

And then it's so interesting that that impulse, as pure as that is.

Then also leads you to a fantastic film, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's like if you had been thinking about it as a conniving filmmaker, yeah.

You wouldn't have maybe cracked the code or been in a place where

you could have made this movie.

This movie's all about leaning into the magical realm of like, what if

we're just making a movie and this happens and then this happens, and

what if this were to happen and.

You know, what if the Blue Panther's involved in this, that,

that, thinking that what if, like, what if we could find your mom?

Right?

But it's not a movie about

somebody who dies.

No.

It's, there's a safe territory here where it's not a movie about, like a

murder or, or somebody has just died.

It's a movie about like somebody who's made a decision, a fantastic decision to.

Almost walk through that portal right there into a new life.

Could you imagine that?

Like what if you just walked through that door and you're just like, all

of a sudden in a new family, you're in a new, you're in a new narrative,

your whole life is in front of you.

Everything that was behind you, including your kids, are now

not a part of what you're doing.

Right?

And that's what's so intense about the movie, and it's so.

Amazing.

Uh, because it's just so hard to understand why she made that choice.

And I, as somebody who's watched the movie, I still don't really

understand why she made that choice.

And I, I think there's, you know, you do a good job of sort of leaving it, hearing

from her and her perspective is why, but also leaving it open and, um, yeah.

Has she seen the movie?

As far as I know, she hasn't.

Um.

Before, before releasing the movie.

Uh, before screening the movie, I had invited her to like, have a, you know,

private screening or come to a screening.

And it was, um, she wasn't ready.

And as time passed, invited her to more screenings.

I was like, kind of, it kind of felt more urgent even like, I was like, well, you

gotta see this because, you know, like, you know this, you're gonna probably, it's

gonna come back to you in some, some way.

You're gonna hear it from other people.

And the last word on it from her was.

I don't think I'll ever be ready.

And Wow.

And maybe she has watched the movie and she just, you

know, doesn't want to tell me.

But, um, that feels very

joist

to me.

That would also be a thing, and that's fine too.

But it was for me as a filmmaker and as, as a maker, as an artist, um, to get over

this part of, um, do I need her to watch that movie, you know, do, to feel okay.

Mm-hmm.

I'm worried about her.

I'm holding her a little bit and being like, I'm concerned.

You know that she's gonna read something or somebody's gonna come to her, and how

could you do this to your family and, and not know what the, what the film is?

Um, but

yeah, that's, so that speaks to you as such an empathetic person

that you're concerned about.

Yeah.

Joyce getting vilified because she really did this to herself and she,

you know, like she didn't make a movie

to herself, right?

Like, yeah.

To air your family's business.

I've never done it.

And I have to tell you like there's a part of me when I watch movies like Sam now

that always is like a little worried I'm gonna be trapped at the kitchen table.

Yeah.

During some family's like dirty laundry session that I can't get out of and I've

like agreed just to be here for, you know, I came over for dinner and like

I can't wait for dessert to get out.

Um, and I didn't ever get there with Sam now, but I do get there

sometimes in personal films.

When it, when it's not done by such an, with such an empathetic

mission at heart and it's not balanced as well as what you've done.

Yeah.

And I worry about that.

Yeah, I completely hear that.

Yeah.

And it's, but it's so organic in your case because you said you guys were

already making these film and it, it's such an extension of what you were already

doing that it did, it never feels like.

You know, we, we see that moment where you're like, now I'm going

to make a film that I can get funding for to go, you know, like's

never like a careerist moment.

It always feels very like you were doing this

anyway over the years.

You know, this is like a really, this is decades, you know, like

there starts our, my relationship with my brother starts to shift.

Um, one of the conversations we had off camera, which you know, would've been

beautiful on camera is Sam asked me.

Can we make sure to at least spend as much time without any talk of movies

or cameras as we do with talk of documentary or cameras or where the

camera around, and that was like a, you know, a little wake up call, complicated.

Wake up call for me, right?

Like, how much do we, how.

You know, how much is this sort of important to me to be tracked, to

be doing the UP series with Sam?

Right?

And every time that there's like a mo potential moment,

having a camera at the ready.

Yeah.

You know, and that is a really messed up concept.

This is my brother, I love my brother, so how do I, um, yeah.

'cause the UP

series

makers are not related to the subjects they have that they have, they have the

emotional distance.

They're now, I mean, from doing it over time, they are related,

but they're, but they're not, you know, they're not, uh, in family.

Right.

But I bet that they feel like family a little bit.

'cause they, they, I bet that there's conversations that they've

only had with the filmmakers and they haven't had with their family.

But, um, yeah.

So this became a thing and I was like, oh yeah, totally.

Let's do that.

And so, you know, we, you know, to Sam's credit.

In introduced like kind of an ethical technology into the process starting

in like the 2015 on of, of like just having connection time going on

walks like this, no cameras involved.

Uh, we don't know what that's like.

Yeah.

And, and how that, that was really like, so useful.

I edit, edit.

I just know how to edit those.

Like I can't go back.

Ugh.

It became so, yeah.

Giving you this tip, guys.

So like a, you know, it became so useful to, to our relationship as it is now after

the movie because that line wasn't broken.

Right.

We still know how to, like, you're still brothers and

you're not just Cameron subject.

Yeah.

You know, I have to say, uh, when.

You first described Sam now to me.

So I've known Reed for a little, little more than a year, but

we know each other pretty well.

We've spent a lot of time talking about life, think about

work, think about feelings.

He's a very thoughtful, deep person.

He's been there for me as a friend.

Uh, I hope I've been there for him.

It's been a, it's been a really fun getting to know you.

It's like one of my favorite new relationships, uh, of my adult life.

Um, but I hadn't seen his work and I heard like all these like pieces, like

these little drips and drabs about it.

And when.

Drip drip when, uh, the idea of Sam now was kind of made clearer

for me before I actually watched it, I realized this is gonna be

great for me and Ben to bond over.

Because we always ask filmmakers on these walks, like, what

is the gateway, uh, film?

Like, what is the gateway drug that got you into film?

And in a lot of ways.

Ben often talks about Sherman's march.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And, and for me in documentary, the gateway drug is seven up.

And so this film is as close of a Venn diagram, uh, experience of seven up meets,

seven up meets Sherman's March.

March.

Uh, in a lot of ways to me, I don't wanna, you know, I don't mean to diminish

it, but if you through comparison, but those are two pretty good comps.

Um.

I want to talk to you about meaning like you, you've gone

on this whole journey, right?

We've, we've talked about feeling, we've talked about like ethics and we've talked

about complications, but I do wanna talk about like meaning and like what it means.

And I wanna do it by going through this gateway right here through the

portal, down through, into this portal.

And so just to give you our audience a chance to kind of catch

up to where we are, we're in East Austin on the Boggy Creek Trail.

We are between 12th Street and NLK, right?

This is a community garden.

I think you're hearing a duck over there.

And then there's this portal, and I have been coming to this portal for years.

I've come here with my son.

I've had, I've done a lot of, uh, deep thinking at the Creekside down there, and

it's about five degrees cooler down there.

So it's just

nice

we go, uh, through this portal and explore, meaning

I loved, I loved that spiel.

But, um, we'll walk through the portal and find out.

Watch your step.

Wow.

I walked through a gateway.

Um, so by meaning, are you looking for, well,

what does the film mean to you and what do you think it means to audiences?

And, and often I think, you know, those are two different things, right?

Um, as filmmakers.

We have to decide for ourselves and what what it means is often different

at the end than it was at the start.

We have to kind of answer a lot of questions about why we're making films,

uh, in grant applications and in pitches.

And so, um, we come up with answers on the front side of documentaries that

don't always stand up in the backside.

So I'm curious like what, what the film has meant, where you found meaning in it,

but I'm also really curious like where other people have found meaning in it.

Yeah.

Um,

multiple levels of meaning for me in this movie.

Uh, obviously it's my family and, you know, it's also like a hard to

say this, but it's a life story.

Like, um, me reckoning also with myself as a, as a creative person, as an

artist, and as somebody who feels things.

So

it's like.

The thing that's really up for me right now is like I'm a child of divorce.

Um, my parents divorced when I was 18 months and I was always going

between houses my whole life, right?

I think one of the gifts from that is that I had a different perspective

at each house, um, and each family.

And this is, this is what I kind of attribute to like, you

know, how does, how does like a film like this start to happen?

You know, it's like one person in, in the family.

It doesn't have to be by divorce, has a different perspective.

Who knows how that happens?

You know, maybe you're thought of as the black sheep in the family.

Maybe something that has happened to you.

It feels very lonely.

Um.

In the, in this story is about that.

And I think that's what resonates for people is that it's like

being the family member that like has to like say something

or do something or take action.

It's a situation, it's a trauma in family.

And um,

it's also about choices, right?

Um, Joyce makes a decision.

Sam and I make a decision.

All people have choices.

Um.

So I, I, I found with audiences, like some of my favorite audience experiences

have been, maybe not what you'd expect.

You know, it's not like, like the thing that where it's like everybody claps and

is like, that's the best movie I ever saw.

I love that.

Um, my favorite, um, audience experience was in Sacramento.

Um, I was, I was doing a screening.

I was with some people from, um.

The ACEs World Adverse Childhood Experiences therapists, and

we came up and did the q and a, and there was no question.

There was no questions asked.

Instead, people just took the mic and just said, I am really angry.

I'm really angry with what Joyce did, and I can't get over that.

And then the next person that spoke was just like, I relate to Joyce.

I was a child of adoption and I feel really seen.

And the next person that spoke said something like, I just

really identify with your dad.

Um, so there's something really powerful to me about.

Seeing that, um, that the work can speak to a lot of different people

and a lot of d you know, we all come from some level of family, right?

So like, um, knowing that those, all those pieces were kind of landing.

And then there's also the brother relationship.

You know, if you have a sibling, what that means.

So I, I had also experienced, um, people would come to a

screening at a film festival.

Yeah.

And then they'd come back the next day with a family member.

Wow.

And that was kind of the light bulb moment was just like, oh, it's not just a, it's

not just for a person, it's for people who are in relationship and don't know how to

talk about something really complicated.

I wanna get a little B-roll of this creek.

Oh yeah.

Because I think it's just a, yeah, let's go down there for a second.

Um, can I walk in here?

Yeah, go for it.

There's some bottles.

Careful.

Ah, that feels good.

I love that.

Ooh, this is nice.

Ah, much better.

This is your

spot, Keith.

This is one of 'em.

Yeah.

I got a lot of spots.

It's a good one.

During COVID, like this is like the perfect distance.

I had that little plastic seed on the back of my bike and I would ride my boy.

Here we go, explore the garden and then kind of come down here

and skip stones and hang out.

I love it.

Let's see if I can find a stone.

There's one.

Nope, there's one.

Not enough water to skip.

Let's see what we can do.

Skipping stones is a great thing, isn't it?

Um,

I love water and I love rocks.

There we go.

Um,

let's just get a little tone here.

It's a nice spot right there.

It's pretty up there.

Yeah.

All right.

Here we go.

We're walking.

We're walking out.

Back

through the portal.

We have gone into a portal.

We have, uh, been bathed in the creek and now we're coming back out the other side.

Alright, we're getting close here to the end.

Reid.

Talk to us about what's next.

Oh, I'm so glad you asked.

I'm really excited about, um, what I'm working on.

It's in development and again, it's not a documentary or it doesn't

feel like a documentary right now.

Um.

But it's, uh, it's exploring the same journey I've been on with my

brother and getting deeper into it.

There's an itch to scratch still around masculinity and brotherhood

that I want to go further into.

I think that I've noticed that.

A lot of the fans of, of Sam now are, are women, and there's a

quality that I really am interested in with just like being a brother.

And I'm thinking about the patriarchy and I'm thinking about this forgottenness of

male rights of passage, and I think that Sam and I went on a pretty significant

one by going on this road trip together.

I don't know what it is to be a man definitively.

I don't have an idea.

But I know what it is to be a brother and I, and so Sam and I are working on a,

a scripted piece now that uses elements of Sam now and uses the, this sort of

language that we've learned together as brothers to, to speak a little bit

more about, um, brotherly connection.

Um.

Yeah, that's, that's what I'm up to right now.

I have no idea what it's gonna become.

Um, but I've been loving the work so far.

We've written about a hundred short stories together about our time

together that are, is like holy smokes.

Yeah.

It's just like, uh, we're just, this is our development.

You know?

This is also thinking some from somebody who's made a documentary before.

Like there's these like source material, right?

Source material to, uh, create and collect to work from.

Um.

So will it be printed as a novel of some kind?

Will it be a screenplay?

We'll find out, but it's, I'm just loving the process.

The end of the movie.

One of the last things I say is, um, I just wanna hang out

with my brother like we used to.

I don't know if that relates to anyone, but, um.

That's up for me.

It's still up for me.

I want, I want to, I wanna reconnect.

I want to be somebody who just like, enjoys going on a walk, um, with

my brother, with another person.

Just enjoy the experience of being here.

Well, I've definitely enjoyed this experience.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for going on a walk with us and for.

It's making such a beautiful movie that we can think so deeply about.

Well, we're, we're coming up on the car Reed, thank you so much for doing this.

This is great.

Thank you guys.

Down.

Sweaty hugs.

Sweaty.

Yeah, that was Reed Harkness, everybody.

Um, I don't want to go overboard and say that this has been my absolute

favorite walk of this series, but this is absolutely at the top of the list.

You know what I loved?

Tell me.

I love that Reed is so thoughtful.

It's not a surprise if for anybody who's seen Sam now, which is such an

unbelievably thoughtful film, but I loved his sort of collision of what

felt like working through something really significant traumatic and, uh,

dangerous because it's with his family that then like transcends and he's able

to share with a bunch of other people.

And then I felt like we kind of got.

A little bit of that on our walk with him.

So it was, it was almost like an extension of the movie.

I can appreciate that.

What I loved about this walk and what I love about Reid is that he is in touch

with his feelings, with his emotions, and kind of with the world around him.

And so when we walked through that portal, he immediately took to that

water and without a second's hesitation, he just popped his shoes off and,

and stepped into that water in kind of this like childlike, uh, fervor

for adventure and, and connection.

That I think I've, I've lost somewhere along the way.

Me too.

I was very worried about Giardia and whatever

could be living in the creek.

What,

and I'm so thankful that Reed wasn't,

he's a sensitive guy.

He's an interesting guy.

He's a curious guy.

And his work kind of, um, brings all that to the, to the, to focus in

a way that I don't know any of the other filmmakers that we focused on.

Uh, you and me included.

Have done anything that's kind of like so textured with like the internal

becoming external and, and, and just his personal story laid bare.

So, uh, if you haven't seen Sam now, please run out and see it.

And I was gonna say the only other filmmaker who, uh, I think comes

close is maybe our next week's guest.

Oh, that's a good tee up.

Um, next week's guest of course, is.

Renowned fiction filmmaker Greg Quedar,

although he is a documentarian at heart and you will understand why

when you listen to the episode.

That's kind of what's coming up next.

We've got Greg Quedar, Oscar nominee for best adapted screenplay for Sing Sing.

Greg Directed Sing Sing.

He developed Sing, sing over the last six or seven years, and like Ben just said,

it was a documentary process at play.

Mm-hmm.

For a beautiful fiction film as a result.

But that has actual, uh.

People in it who are prisoners in the prison where they're filming.

That's right.

So it's a really interesting hybrid and we talked to Greg all about his approach.

So Sing Singh, starring Coleman Domingo starring real, uh,

people doing a fictionalized account of their own stories.

It's a, it's a beautiful film released by a 24 last year.

Um, won all kinds of awards, was nominated for all kinds of awards, and

Greg just also happens to be an Austin filmmaker and a friend of both of ours.

Mm-hmm.

And we're gonna go for a really great walk around Hyde Park, uh, learning about his

process, learning about his background, and uh, and hopefully spotting some birds.

You and the birds.

All right.

Stay tuned, everybody.

Thanks.

We

will catch you next time

on Dock Walks.

Dock Walks is created, produced, and edited by my friend Ben

Stein, Bower of the Bear.

Hello, and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for tuning

in.

Follow us at Doc Walks Pod on Instagram X and YouTube.