EP015 – Do Your Thing with Kevin Willmott

07.24.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 15

We’re off to Kansas! Or… Ben is. He’s flying back to to Lawrence, Kansas, to interview one of his professors from his days at the University of Kansas — Academy Award-winning filmmaker and KU professor Kevin Willmott. Known for co-writing BLACKKKLANSMAN with Spike Lee, Wilmott shares personal stories of his journey from a young creative in Kansas to an Oscar award-winning filmmaker. This one is jam-packed with a wide-ranging discussion covering the power of cinema, activism, the impact of Black history, and the challenges of making films outside Hollywood — and the role of the teacher. Ben is filled-up with admiration and respect for Kevin Willmott and before the end of this one, you will be too!

00:00 Introduction and Overview

01:01 Meeting Kevin Willmott

03:08 Kevin’s Early Life and Influences

05:23 The Journey to Filmmaking

12:28 Activism and Filmmaking

20:27 CSA: Confederate States of America

29:46 Collaboration with Spike Lee

34:05 The Importance of Having a Follow-Up Project

35:11 Pitching ‘Gotta Give It Up’ to Hollywood

36:35 Collaborations and Career Milestones

40:22 The Impact of Black History on Filmmaking

44:08 Teaching and Building a Film Community

46:45 Challenges and Rewards of Independent Filmmaking

53:57 Facing Racism and Its Influence on Storytelling

59:43 Reflections on Activism and Filmmaking

01:05:39 Upcoming Projects and Final Thoughts

Hey everybody.

This week we've got, uh, something a little different for you.

Um, I am solo in this one.

I go to Lawrence, Kansas, uh, where the University of Kansas is my alma mater.

And I interview Academy Award winning Kevin Wilmont, who wrote Black

Klansman, uh, and won the Oscar for best screenplay with Spike Lee.

Um, he means a lot to me personally, as you will hear in this interview.

He also, uh, requested that we not walk very far in our walk, so, uh,

we walk so that we can then sit.

So this one's more stationary than usual, and because I was traveling when

I filmed this, I'm solo without Keith.

So Keith, you were missed.

Uh, but I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I enjoyed recording it.

So, without further ado, here is my.

Doc Walk with Kevin Wilmont.

On your left,

you're listening to Doc Walk with Ben and Keith.

I am here joined by, uh, academy Award-winning, uh, a film Professor

Emeritus, one of my favorite people.

Kevin Wilmont.

Hey brother, man.

How you doing, man?

I'm doing great, man.

I'm so happy to see you.

Oh, it's great to see you.

Thank you for taking the time to do this with me and I, I wanna

show everybody where we are.

We are standing on the corner of Mass Street here in downtown Lawrence, Kansas.

And, uh, this is where I went to undergrad, which is how I met Kevin.

And I love being back here.

Yes.

Welcome back my friend.

Thank you.

I, I always get kind of like a warm and fuzzy feeling when

I'm here in Lawrence because.

I had such an incredible creative undergraduate experience

where I discovered my passion for documentary filmmaking.

Yeah.

I was in a bunch of bands, not good ones.

You, you didn't ever hear of any of the bands I was in.

But you were in them.

You were in 'em.

I was in 'em.

You were in I

was, uh, very enthusiastic, happy to be there.

Yeah.

And, uh, uh, but this felt like a creative hotbed and a, and like a safe place.

Yes.

To experiment and to like, um, find yourself, find, find my voice.

Thank you.

Find myself.

Yes, indeed.

And, and, uh, I've often dreamt of coming back here and maybe teaching and Sure.

You know, just like, I, I just love being back here.

So I'm, I'm so thrilled that you're joining me and Well, we're,

we're all, you know, you one of our favorite sons.

We're all very proud of you.

Oh, thank you, sir.

And, uh, and you know, that's the thing that we always wanted.

Uh, you know, Lawrence to be, was a place where.

You know, somebody could do their thing.

Yeah.

You know, a student could, could find their voice, man.

You are, you are the example of that, man.

Well, you set the stage for that.

As long as we're both complimenting each other.

I mean, you, you know, you grew up in Emporia, Kansas, uh, junction City.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

You're Junction City.

Yeah.

I think one of your films was said at Emporium recently and

that's why I got that in my head.

Yeah, that's right.

You're from Junction City.

You started making films very like independent, almost

doesn't even do it justice.

Like you were, you were making films in a place where that just didn't happen.

No, man.

And, and, you know, and really, to be honest with you, man, Ben, it's like,

you know, I, I, you know, there was, it is like we were talking about this

great technology we have now, man.

There was, there was no technology then.

Yeah, it was just, you know, I used to look at Montgomery Wars catalogs at the

eight millimeter cameras and just dream of getting one of those, and that was like.

You know, that was like, you know, a million dollars

Yeah.

For our family.

Right.

You know?

Sure.

So it was just, you know, just, you know, that, that that wasn't gonna happen.

So it wasn't really until I got out of grad school that I, when

I went to grad school is when I really made my first book.

So I wrote plays instead.

You did, so was a playwright, but were you always interested in movies?

Always.

That was always the

goal.

And plays were the way that you could get closest to it.

Could afford.

Okay.

Yeah.

I could afford it.

And, and so tell me about, uh, what your parents did and their reaction

to what you said you wanted, uh, to, to do, when you wanted to be a

storyteller, when you, when you told them.

Well, you know, I tell you, man, it was funny because my parents were,

were really hip, they were older.

You know, I had older parents.

My, my father was born in 1898.

My father was 60 when I was born.

Wow.

And that's just 36 years after slavery.

Wow.

Oh my goodness, Kevin.

That's, that is incredible.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

You know, it was like, and my mother was, was real hip, she was younger obviously.

And, uh, and you know, so they were both, uh, very subtle.

You know, nothing freaked them out about, about growing up.

They seen everything, uh, done everything.

So it was already kind of non-traditional around your house.

Yeah.

So for you to say you wanted to do something non-traditional

wasn't a big shot.

never, I never even had to tell him.

Oh, interesting.

I just, I just go, did my thing.

Interesting.

I mean, it wasn't even a conversation.

Okay.

And, and, you know, and at the time I really kind of wanted to

be an actor more than anything.

Okay.

And because that's all I knew I could maybe do.

But I wrote stories, I wrote my own plays and, and I wrote a play that got

me, um, uh, that really kind of gave me the confidence to go to college.

'cause I wasn't supposed to go to college.

No one in our neighborhood went to college.

Yeah.

Only people that went to college, uh, were athletes.

And this would've been what year?

This was, this was 76.

I went to a Catholic school and it's because I worked at a, a cemetery

cutting the grass at a cemetery and they loved me there and they got me

into this other school and uh, and he's the one encouraged me to go to college.

Okay.

And that's where I wrote my, really, my first plays.

But the whole time, you know, like one of my plays was an adaptation of a film,

was an adaptation of Swept Away by Leno.

We Muer.

Okay.

I know that, uh, the Italian director.

Okay.

So, so, so, you know, I'm doing this in Salina of Kansas.

Wow.

I was gonna ask, where is this?

Where is your, where are you?

It's a small cap.

It a small

Catholic school.

It's closed now.

That's okay.

That's how small it was.

It's closed now, but it's a great school.

Okay.

And had a great drama coach, so I really just did my thing, you know, and

that's why I always try to encourage.

You know, that's what you did so well, was to get, I always just, what I did

was that when you go to college, you, you go to college to do your thing.

Right.

You know, you go, you go to college, find your voice yourself,

find yourself and do your thing.

And, and it's real simple.

But, but I, but I was older, I worked a couple years before I went to school.

Yeah.

So I was, yeah.

did that same thing.

And I wonder if that's the, that's the secret sauce.

I think

that's the secret sauce, dude.

Yeah.

Because you appreciate it more.

No.

And then you've worked in the world, you know, that shit ain't no fun.

Right.

Exactly.

You know, you know what's waiting for you, you know what's on the other end.

That's right.

If you don't succeed,

if you don't get this together, man, I gotta go back to that.

Right.

I'm not going back to that.

Right.

You know, I'm not, but I'm not going back to that.

So, so, um, so then I went to grad school, uh, and, and where was grad school?

That was at, at N-Y-U-N-Y-U.

Okay.

Yeah.

It was in Tisch, but I was in the writing department.

Incredible.

That's a big jump from a small Catholic school, Kansas.

It was a man Big jump dude.

Big

jump brother.

So, you know, I, I, I went to NYU and, and you know, a play, my play that

became my first film got me into NYU.

And uh, and that's where I, I really went there to learn how

to write a screenplay naturally.

Interesting.

'cause there was no place in Kansas you could learn how to write a screenplay

Sure.

Because films weren't really being made here.

No.

And so nobody did that.

mean, films were made here, but No, nobody was making films here.

I mean, like, you know, picnic with William Holden and Kim

Novak is made in Salina.

Right.

But they're not making movies here.

Right.

But they're not Yeah.

The, the person writing picnic Yes.

Lives in Los Angeles.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that, so those productions would come to Kansas, shoot a

movie in Kansas and then leave.

Right.

But no, there's no, there was no industry here.

Yeah.

And there was nobody making films here.

So.

So, yeah, man, that was, that was the thing, man.

So you had to just figure, figure it out.

Yeah.

Because figure your way out, man.

And, and most, mostly it was, I think I really so glad I wrote plays, uh, because

that, that gave me, um, it taught me a lot about character development and

story and dialogue, especially dialogue.

Yeah, sure.

Uh, because I think you can't, it's hard to teach dialogue.

Mm-hmm.

And you kind of, you kind of have to be around dialogue, you know,

read enough screenplays, be in enough plays, see enough plays,

is have enough of imagination to have dialogue in your head Right.

Where you, you know, it's a real, it's a real, you know, it's a

real school you have to go to

Absolutely.

For that.

Well, and also you have to have some lived experience because if you

don't understand how people talk,

that's, that's one of the jokes I, I'm just telling my wife.

It's.

You know, somebody, they, they need to have a bootcamp for Democrats to know

how to, 'cause they're all nerds and they're all nerds and people that never

had to fight for stuff in real life.

Yep.

You know, they never had to, you know, ward off a bully.

Mm-hmm.

You

know, where guys would kick your ass.

And so if you couldn't, if you couldn't talk trash back to them Right.

You had to mean so many times.

You know, you had to learn how to just talk trash.

Yeah.

Because that saved you right.

From an ass whooping.

I feel like you're probably a pretty good trash talker.

Oh man.

I be telling you, dude.

And my mama was the king of trash talkers and she, I kind of picked

it up from her and they used to have, uh, TK games at our house.

It was like a little gambling casino at our house.

I was watching the 24th last night to prepare for this.

Somebody says, tk want to play tk?

Yes.

What does that mean?

TK is a black card game.

Okay.

Excuse.

I think only black people did it.

Really?

And it's an old, it's like a five card.

Uh, you know, those kinda like rummy kind of card game.

Okay.

And, uh, and, but it was like, uh, you know, back in the thirties and forties

it was, people gambled with it, you know, so it was specific to like black

culture to bl specific to black culture.

Okay.

And, uh, and so my mo my mother would have tonk games and this is

when I was in high school and I would put the money up for her.

So it'd be like, you know, you need to get some money to to, to get the game started.

Yeah.

And you'd have like a pot of money just to, you know, to, you know, just

to, you know, to keep, you know, to keep, uh, to keep the game going.

Okay.

And these

games would be all night long Oh

wow.

From all, all night long until the next day.

Okay.

And she'd cook food and, uh, and so people were there all night

long and you know, and so, and so I was an, an investor in it.

I was an investor with her in it.

you had, you had provide the I provided the money

up front, so I'm so, 'cause I had a couple jobs in high school.

I was always working.

Okay.

And so she'd come in the middle of the night, she said, we're up 500.

Wow.

And you know, but it was like, but, and they would talk

trash during those punk games.

Okay.

And, and soldiers would come in their wives and stuff.

And so you had the, you know, it was just the, you know, I mean, I

didn't realize at the time 'cause it's just how you're living as kid.

Yeah.

You're just absorbing.

But, but, but it's like, that's the thing that Donald Trump comes

from, you know, he comes from, you know, he didn't go to school.

Right.

You know, he was just a rich guy that had everything handed to him.

Yeah.

So he's like, he's like the bully.

Yeah.

He's like the guy that comes in and, and, and says, you

know, calls you names and shit.

And if you can't respond back to him Right.

In a, and it, and also your response has to be funny.

And it has, and it has to like target them in a way they're not expecting.

Yeah.

And then it just deflates their shit.

And I

love, I love that you're turning this political, or taking it political

because you, your films from the beginning have been political films.

I mean, you've been, it was really interesting for me to go back and

kind of visit your catalog and realize like, oh, you have been either making

films that have an activist point of view or in a lot of cases lately

just making films about activists.

Right, right.

Your documentaries that you've done recently have been these, these, um,

you're, you're basically telling the, the biography of people like William Allen

White and um, uh, your, your Alvin Brooks.

Thank you.

Uh, Alvin Brooks, and then your Kansas, the no place for Hayes.

Yeah, yeah.

That is like, basically telling the story of, of, uh, the Kansas legislature

and they're, they're making it hard for trans and gay, gay folks to do

their thing.

Yeah, man.

You know, that's, to me, I think growing up in the seventies.

Um, that was such a activist time.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and, and you know, the neighborhood I grew up in, the older

guys, you know, they weren't activists, but they all knew what was happening.

So, so they let me, they let me hang out with them and, you know, I

couldn't talk, but I could listen.

They let me listen.

So I would, I heard, I remember, I remember one conversation, man,

where, where this is in Junction City and they were talking

about, yeah, man, they got tanks.

You got tanks on the street in Lawrence got tank in they, and they eventually

gonna come down here for us, man.

That's what guys were saying.

And then there were tanks on Mass Street in the sixties and,

and, and during the, they burned down the student union on campus.

So, I mean, so it was like, that kind of stuff just stays with you and kind

of, and influences you in various ways.

And, uh, and then man, I, you know, I think I've always kind of, you know,

when you care about other people, it's like same thing you do, man, you,

you, an appreciation for characters.

Yeah.

You have an

appreciation for people.

Yeah.

And when you, when you appreciate people, you, it's hard not to be an

activist in some form or another.

That's a great point.

Like you have the empathy to think about things from other people's perspectives.

Yes.

And so that lead you to want to stand up for them.

That's right.

And, and, and, and that's what republicans don't have.

Republicans don't care about people.

And, and, and they, they only care about money and they care about power.

And, and they, they, and, and so, you know, the thing that Democrats

do a horrible job of is they don't explain things to people.

Right.

Like, why we need certain programs.

Yeah.

And they don't explain to them in a human way so that people

can understand in a human way.

They start talking about this gobbly goop that nobody cares about.

But see Donald Trump, his super, his superpower is that

he, he knows how to hate.

He's a, he's a bully.

He's a hate.

And see, there's a, there's always, you know, when you were a kid and the

bully was messing with you, there was always three or four dudes around him

that was hanging out with the bully.

'cause the bully had the power, and they would always laugh at you.

Whatever the bully said about you, they would laugh at you because

the bully was making fun of you.

And that's Republicans.

They're just standing behind him laughing at you.

And so that thing I was saying before about the only, the only, the only thing

you can do to them is you have to, you have to deflate their ship by dogging

them out worse than they can dog you out.

Right.

And that's what Democrats don't know how to do.

They don't know how to expose them as haters.

They start talking about things, they talking about authoritarianism.

People don't know what the fuck authoritarianism is.

Right.

They know that.

We don't even, I never heard that word until Donald Trump showed up.

Interesting.

Is that right?

Yes.

I mean, but they know, they maybe know what a dictator is.

You have to use language that you have and you have to say, Hey

man, they're getting ready to cut your grandmama off of Medicaid.

And she ain't gonna be able to go to a nursing home, dude.

They're gonna have her on the street selling pencils like

back in the thirties and shit.

She gonna be selling apples on the corner, man.

That's what your mom, that's what your grandmama do.

And then your mama goes right behind her.

I mean, and people can, maybe that's, that's, those are images you're selling.

People start, right.

You people will start to see those things.

You start to, because that's what old people did before Social security.

They got old, they got sick, they had to sell apples on the corner.

They had no money.

There was something called the Poor house, which was like, not even a

homeless shelter, which was a, a building maybe that all the hope they, that

maybe put you in if you were lucky.

Right?

And so see, so those are all these things I learned from my

family 'cause they were old man.

The poor house, they just talk about the poor house.

They gonna put you in a poor house, boy.

Right.

And I've heard that expression before.

Yes.

But didn't really understand that there was an actual poor house and, and all of

that stuff went away because of Democrats.

So one of the things I'm so struck by your filmmaking and your body of work is that

you seem like you very clearly from the beginning understood the power of cinema,

or, or that cinema had a certain power.

Yes.

And that you could start to tell, uh, stories that people

would, uh, would be impacted by.

And that that was like the thing that was driving you to tell stories.

And I feel like in a way that's different than a lot of other filmmakers journeys.

Like, you know, you hear like, I wanted to be Steven Spielberg, or

I wanted to, you know, they were, you start out kind of emulating

somebody and it almost seems like you started out wanting to, uh, to have.

Uh, an activist point of view.

Am I right in that?

No, no doubt about it, man.

I mean, I mean, I didn't think about it in those clear terms, really.

Yeah.

Uh, but that's really what it, what it, what it was.

I mean, part of it was growing up in the seventies, going to, you know, it's like

the, and really the sixties too, you know, I was a kid then, but I saw, I was movie

freak, so I went to movies every weekend.

And, uh, so there were these things called the problem pictures.

And problem pictures were mainly like Sidney Poitier movies and, and

they talked about race and, and they, and they were about the problem, you

know, literally they were about, the problem was Hollywood was responding

to the civil rights movement.

And so they made these movies and, and I just love those movies.

I saw 'em on tv.

Yeah.

You know, uh, and you're seeing these in Junction City?

In Junction City on, on television.

Okay.

Yeah.

And there's three, three channels back then.

And, and so they, a lot of these movies would, you know, and you know,

back then my whole thing, you'll, you'll, you'll appreciate this.

You, we'd watch the movie and then we'd go play it.

Oh, so it's like, so you'd act it out.

You'd act it out, man.

So you go see the movie and then you went home and you, and the whole time you're

watching the movie, you kind of like, this is gonna be fun to play after, after this.

Right.

You know, so it's all Western or war.

I love war movies, you know, so funny.

'cause I, I'm an anti-war now guy, but, but I love war

movies 'cause of the adventure.

Sure.

You know, the adventure Yeah.

And the stakes and the heroics.

Yeah.

Life and stakes.

The stakes life and death and, you know, and, and so all that stuff,

it kind of, you know, watching those problem pictures specifically

mm-hmm.

And then kind of becoming a, you know, an interested in, in the civil

rights movement and, and history.

You know, it was always history guy.

So all of that stuff was, had a big infl and then so you're

looking for it in movies, right?

I was looking for that stuff in movies.

Oh, okay.

So movies like Strange Love, Dr.

Strange Love and you know, I mean it's like, I mean, those movies are so great

because they take a problem in society.

And they, and the movie gives you a, a way to handle it and to control

it and to feel like now you have, now you have an understanding of it.

Right.

And the, and these issues don't control you.

You control them now.

Mm-hmm.

Interesting.

Okay.

And, and

that's what you're trying to give the audience.

You're trying to give the audience a sense of control over these

things they have no control over.

Well, you talking about, this is making me realize that our audience

may not know your body of work.

So you are basically describing a film that you, that

basically put you on the map.

CSA Confederate States of America.

Yes.

And that is a mockumentary that you made, uh, that was depicting

the world that would have occurred had the South won the Civil War.

Yes.

And I remember seeing that movie for the first time, and

you have commercials for, uh.

What is it?

Chains?

Leg.

Leg irons.

Yes.

All the devices to keep slaves in check, you know?

Yes, yes.

In controlled.

Yep.

And then you have, you know, all these products that, that you find at the end

of the movie actually existed in America.

Some of them still exist.

I mean, darky toothpastes sold in China is called Darley now.

Darley Toe.

Wow.

So a friend of mine just brought me back a tube.

Oh.

From, from this visit to China.

Wow.

Yeah.

And you know, but you know, that's such

a powerful thing to then show that these actually did exist.

'cause it

plays a movie, uncle Ben Rice and Jamal Pancakes.

Right.

Just, they just changed that couple years ago.

Right.

When we, when we were making the film, that stuff was still alive and kicking and

those were holdovers from slavery, aunt slavery and uncle are terms from slavery.

Wow.

Aunt and uncle are terms from slavery.

Those are the names they gave house slaves.

And so the activist in you sounds like was there from the beginning.

You.

I, I, well, I guess my question is, what led you to make Confederate

States of America csa Sure.

And do it in, in this mockumentary fashion that you did, like, did it, was that

for the maximum impact that you knew they would have on the audience, or,

yeah.

It's like you were saying, man, you're always, you know, when you making a film,

you know, you, you're always trying to find what's the best approach, right?

Right.

And, you know, every movie's different.

Mm-hmm.

Every movie's got a certain, you know, um, thing that makes it important to do.

But then there's the question of what's, what's the right approach

to make it the most effective?

Right.

And

so the reason I wanted to make the film was the Confederate flag was still flying

over this, you know, the capital South Carolina, and, you know, Confederate flags

on, you know, you see 'em in, I mean, this is, this is a, you know, the free

state supposedly, but you saw Confederate flags on people's cars all on back then.

So the Confederacy was still very much alive.

It's gotten a, it's gotten better.

It's, it's having a comeback now.

We can talk about that later, but it's having a comeback now.

But, um, but you know, so I wanted, I wanted to make people aware that the

Confederacy really kind of won the war.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we, we think, we think that it loss, but, but you know, our sympathies,

since they lost the war, have been toward the Confederacy, not, not toward slaves.

Interesting.

Gone with the winds, you know, there's no, there's no, there's no scenes in the

movie of, of Mammy and her, her family.

So you, so you mean the South won the war in the sense that they

created this sort of iconic Yes.

Um, beautiful picture of the South and like, almost like, um, they told a better

story.

No doubt about it.

And, and it's called The Lost Cause.

There's a whole, there's a whole, you know, whole genre of books that were.

Called The Lost Cause, and Don with the Wind is the number one of them.

Hmm.

And, but there's also a whole string of movies that were made.

There was a, there was so many movies.

And Kansas and Lawrence is, is in a lot of them.

Is that right?

Yes.

They were made during the fifties and forties, fifties and early sixties.

Uh, OTTI Murphy was in two or three of 'em, and there's a lot of these movies.

One of the worst one is called Santa Fe Trail.

It's on Max.

Okay.

If you wanna watch it.

Okay.

Uh, starts Errol Flynn and Ronald Reagan, of course.

Uh, and, uh, and basically, you know, the Abolitions are the bad guys in the movie.

And uh, and that's the thing that, and this, and it's always bent

toward a sympathy toward the south.

And, uh, and that's, that's, that's the thing that, that people, when

you watch those movies, they should be called Southerns, not Westerns.

Mm Ooh, that's interesting.

They should be called Southerns.

Yeah.

Because they're about, they're really about kind of how the south, uh,

from the southern point of view.

Okay.

Uh, and so you just, you just don't really kind of, um, see what's

really going on in the movie.

'cause it's disguised as a western, it's disguised as you know, but John

Brown is a bad guy in Santa Fe Trail.

Geez.

Well, and you know, at this point, I, I guess when you

make CSA, are you in Lawrence?

I'm in Lawrence, yes.

Okay.

I'm teaching at KU

because lo and, and I want to get to, to teaching and what that, how that

informed you as a filmmaker, but.

In addition to Lawrence feeling like this sort of creative safe space

for me, I, I also was very aware of the history when I was here.

Right.

And I was not somebody who, uh, just naturally gravitated towards that.

Right.

You know, I didn't think about the history of where I grew up really?

No.

Because most people don't.

Yeah.

There wasn't a lot of reason for me to, I grew up in a suburb of Oklahoma

City and before that I was born in Wichita and my family kind of moved

around Kansas and landed in Oklahoma.

And it wasn't until I got here that I started to understand like, oh, Kansas

was on the north side of the Civil War.

Right.

And John Brown.

Yeah.

You know, the fiery abolitionists Yeah.

Fought for slaves freedom.

Right.

And then it got very violent right here in Lawrence with kind

of the civil war really kind of starts here.

Yeah.

Really.

I mean, it really does.

Yeah.

And, and you know, the thing I always tell people, 'cause you know that

Santa Fe Trail is a good example.

He always make John Brown look like he's crazy.

People would say, well, John Brown was crazy.

You know, it's like, yeah.

You know, it's funny, I've never heard anybody ever say A slave owner is crazy,

but the only guy in America, free slaves besides Harriet Tubman, he's crazy.

And, you know, and that's, and that's the thing, it's like slave owners could be

as violent as they want to be to slaves cut their feet off if they ran away,

torture them, do all kind, experiment on them, do all kind of horrible things.

But the minute that somebody fights back for their freedom,

then, then that's, that's crazy.

That's crazy.

And that's the thing about history is that you always, it's the, the

old saying, you know, the history is written by the, the spoilers.

It's written by the winners.

Right.

You know, so the slaves weren't writing the history of, of their story in America.

Right.

The, the, the, the, the South did, and the south, you gotta remember after

the Civil wars, just like Lawrence.

You know, Lawrence is being burned down three or four times during the pro,

you know, the lead up to the Civil War.

Yeah.

And by Missourians, right after the war is over, we have to be friends with Missouri.

Right.

We have to play basketball.

Yes.

We have

to play.

Exactly.

And we hate them because of that.

Right.

You know,

and my stepdad, you know, studies the Civil War, he lives in

Clay Center not far from here.

And he would always joke about that.

Yes.

Oh, this is the Civil War playing out.

And I thought it was funny until I realized like, oh no, that he's not,

that really is the, he's not kidding.

I mean, that's the real deal.

And, and, and there people that still hate Lawrence Missourians because of that.

Right.

And, and, and, but the but the, what, when you get down to the technical

reality of it though, is that Americans, you know, after the Civil War, Kansas

has to be friends with Missouri.

They could do business together, you know, they're all part of the union.

And so they, so they have a reunion.

And this reunion is the thing that created these movies we're talking about.

Mm-hmm.

Where the, it's the southern point of view that gets made because the only

way to be friends again, is we have to forget the thing that brought us to

killing each other, which was slavery.

Mm-hmm.

So slavery is removed from the cause of the Civil War.

So they always see these movies during that time.

What's the, why are these people fighting each other?

We don't understand why they, why, why aren't we just brothers?

We're all brothers and sisters like, no, no.

Remember, you know, you guys wouldn't give up the slaves.

And Abraham Lincoln said, you gotta free him.

And um, people didn't necessarily fight because of that, but a lot of people did.

Right.

And, uh, and Lincoln is murdered because of that.

Right.

By a racist John Wilkes booth.

Mm-hmm.

Who's mad because the south has been destroyed.

And so, you know, I mean, that's, that's the thing about America is that

there's all this stuff that happens way back a long time ago that's still

sitting right in your lap today,

that plays out.

And it takes somebody like you, it, it's almost as if your career has been

a, a reaction to what you're saying.

Like you're trying No, no doubt about it, man.

You're trying to, to change the narrative and to point out all of the

things that have been glossed over in a way that people don't think about.

And so, so you make CSA and that's a huge hit for you, right?

Yeah.

Like you, you had made one film previous to that I made,

I made my first film before that.

Okay.

And so that movie we kind of put me on the mat.

That's how I met Spike was from CSA.

And so you, uh, meet Spike Lee?

How do you guys

meet?

So he heard about the film.

Okay.

And he called me and he said, I heard about your film.

I'd love to see it.

And we had the same agent at the time.

Okay.

And, uh, it's a great Hollywood story because the agent before, um.

Before I got into Sundance with CSA, they saw the film and they said, so,

um, what do you want me to do with this?

Really?

Just like that.

Your agent says that.

Yeah.

So, well, let's back up.

'cause this, what we hope is that this podcast will be listened to by film

students and people just starting out.

So a lot of people don't have an agent.

And here you are in Junction City, your first film.

I was in Lawrence then.

Oh, sorry, you're in Lawrence.

But your first film was made in Junction City.

Yes, correct.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, the Kansas City area kind of all around.

We're back, get somebody to help me, you know, but, but your

film was called Junction City?

Yeah, it's about, it's about a street in Junction City.

Right.

Okay.

And so then you, you make that film.

Do you get an agent from that film?

No.

No, I did not.

Okay.

And so I, but,

but were you teaching in at KU at that point?

Uh, I was not quite teaching then yet.

Okay.

I was about to start teaching there.

Okay.

About the next, I had just finished that film when I kind of got hired

and, uh, and it was really, um.

You know, you know, I sold, the first screenplay I sold was with a

buddy of mine, Mitch Bryan, and he had lived in LA but he'd moved back

to Kansas City after the LA riots.

Oh.

In 92?

In 92, okay.

And he and I, there was an article about my movie and I in it, I said, I

wanna write a movie about John Brown.

He saw that he wanted to make a movie about John Brown too.

So we, I didn't know him and he didn't know me, but we had

this interest in John Brown.

And so we, we, we collaborated on the script and we sold

it to 20th Century Fund.

Wow, that's incredible.

Okay.

And that's how we got an agent.

And that's how you got an agent.

That's how I got it.

Okay.

So then, so then you sell a script to twice.

So, and I talking

about getting an agent is that the minute you have something

to sell, you get an agent.

Yep, exactly.

They appear, they appear I nowhere, they just suddenly they're there.

Hi.

It here them serve you.

You know, the minute you're out struggling try to get something

going, there's no agent anywhere.

That's right.

My, my friend Jay Delos gave me the best piece of advice.

He said, everybody wants to jump aboard a moving train.

doubt about it.

Nobody wants to help push.

That's, that's push the train.

That's right, brother.

That's the deal man.

So, so, uh, so, you know, we, we got to, we got an agent and, uh, so

I made CSA totally independently.

Yeah.

And this is what I'm teaching at KU and Matt Jacobson, who is one

of your favorite professors I know.

Yeah.

He loves, he loves you.

Uh, he, he, it was really Matt that really the key because I, you know, I

needed a great cinematographer who could.

Really make this vision come true for me.

Mm-hmm.

And I, and we were sharing an office.

He had just came to work at KU

because he came from LA also.

Yes.

He had come from LA too.

Yeah.

And so we made this film, man, and, you know, and, and so we made the

film and then I showed it to, to my agent, and the agent literally

says, so just like this, he says, so what do you want me to do with this?

And then the next day, literally I got into Sundance and he called me

back and said, Kevin, you're a genius.

And the thing I always tell folks from that story is that, that,

you know, that William Goldman has that, that, that saying in

Hollywood, no one knows anything.

Nobody knows anything.

And what that means is that no one knows anything until someone

tells them what they know.

So he didn't, they didn't know CSA was good until Sundance said it was good.

Now they know.

Yeah.

Interesting.

they're waiting for someone to tell them what they know.

Right.

But they, they have no opinion themselves.

And that's your, that's where you come and you tell

us what we know.

Tell us what you know, and you have to just do your thing.

And they may not get it right, but they, you can't not do your

thing because they don't get it.

Sure.

And

the more you in fact, do your thing, the more people actually love it.

Like the more personal, the more universal a lot of times.

No, no, no doubt about it.

Yeah.

And, and you know, so, uh, so that's how then Spike heard about my film,

wanted to see it, saw it, loved it, wanted to support me on it.

So it's presented by Spike Lee.

Cool.

And so you

guys strike up a friendship and do you start working together

right away, or does that Well, he

asked me immediately.

He says, what else do you have?

Yeah.

Which is the other thing a student should always know is when you get a

break, you need to have something else.

I'm

so glad you're talking about that.

'cause anytime I talk to students, that's the first thing I say is,

nobody wants after you make your, your first film or your Yes.

Latest film.

Nobody wants to talk to you about that anymore.

It's always what's next, what you got now.

So you gotta have something in the hopper, and

all it means is that when you make your first film and they like it

and it gets acclaimed and it gets attention, then they're going, okay.

So, you know, that's fine, that's great.

A lot of times they don't really get the benefits of that film.

Right.

So it's really kind of, they're now investing in you.

Yeah.

So what do you have that I can use?

And so you gotta have a script.

You gotta have a project, you gotta have, you know, a, a story

developed, you gotta have something.

Sure.

That's ready to go.

Yeah.

That you can pitch right there.

Yeah.

And it's gotta be something that, you know, uh, is commercial enough

in some way that they have a, a, some chance of connecting to.

Right.

So, uh, fortunately with this was, I had a script called, gotta Give It Up,

which was, I was in a play at, in, at Marymount College in Saline, Kansas.

It's Estrada.

Okay.

Estrada is a Greek play from, from four 11 BC I think it is.

Wow.

Okay.

You know, I mean, ancient, ancient play about women going on strike to, on a sex

strike to make men stop going to war.

Interesting.

Okay.

So, so I took, and the play was written in verse, and so I thought

the verse sounded like spoken word.

It sounded like rap.

So I took the play and I rewrote it into a screenplay added and

said it in terms of gang violence.

And so women go on the strike, let's, let's try, as the leader of them, she

goes on a sex strike to stop women from, uh, to stop gang violence.

And, uh, so they turn their boyfriends and husbands or whatever down, uh,

to make them go to have the peace.

And, uh, and Spike loved it.

And we went all over Hollywood trying to pitch this thing.

You know, we had the script.

And, uh, we had two readings of it for Dreamworks.

Uh, but the, the, in the end they didn't do it.

So we had a meeting with, with Jennifer Lopez, she was gonna be Liz Estrada.

Wow.

Um, and then, so it went away.

So Spike went on, I went on to other things, um, worked on

only good Indian and mm-hmm.

You know, because

that's your follow up film to CSA.

Yes.

Only good Indian and I, I think was, so CSA was 2004, is that that correct?

Uh uh, yes.

Thousand four.

And then only Good Indian is 2009.

Yes.

Is that correct?

So there's a five year Yeah.

Well we made another film in between, uh, a movie called Bunker Hill.

Oh yeah, sure.

Yeah,

yeah.

And that's like 2006 or so.

And you co-wrote that with Spike?

I co-wrote that.

No, no.

I coro that with a guy here in Lawrence.

Oh, okay.

Written guy by name.

Greg heard.

Okay.

Yeah.

And, uh, so, so cut to 20 years later, spike calls me.

It's like 20.

14 or something, you know, you know, something like that.

And he says, do you still have that script?

And I said, yeah, I still got it.

He said, let's set in Chicago called a Chirack.

And that film became, if not the first, one of the first movies

that Amazon Studios produced.

Wow.

Look at that.

So that's a great lesson in like, just because something doesn't happen

immediately, there's Hollywood's full of those stories all, all the time.

You know, it took me 15 years to make this, or That's right.

Whatever.

That's right.

Yeah,

that's right.

And especially when you got someone like Spike who, you know, obviously has juice,

but you know, people don't understand it.

It's hard for anybody to get a movie made.

Yeah.

You know, even if you're Spike

Lee,

even if you're Spike, even Martin Scorsese, he doesn't, you know, I

mean, the only guy that probably got it like that is, is Spielberg.

Right?

Right.

But, but, but, but everybody else is, is has to deal with stuff.

Yeah.

And, uh, so, so, so, and then after that we did, uh, um.

We did, uh, black Klansmen and then, uh, and then we did, uh, defy

Bloods together.

Right.

And people, uh, you know, me being one of them would assume that when

you win an Academy Award and you are then introduced anytime you do

anything like this podcast as an Academy award winning filmmaker Sure.

Kevin Wilmar, that people will come outta the woodwork to support you and

to help you make your next projects.

Is that true?

Well, I mean, I, you know, the thing I tell everybody is that,

you know, I work nonstop now.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, as long as there's a project they want to do, as long as it's their project.

I mean, your project is always difficult to get Whoopi to get made.

Right.

But, you know, usually what they do is like, like, it's just like when

we talked about when, uh, you get your first break, it's no different.

When you win an Academy Award, then the question becomes, um.

You know, so do you, so what do you want to, it's not,

it's not what do you wanna do?

It's, here's what we want you to do.

Hmm.

Interesting.

Here's what we have for you.

And you seem like somebody who's not gonna like that.

Well, you know, fortunately the thing,

well, what I mean is you're not gonna want to do what they probably want you

to do.

Well, well, the, the, the, the thing I, I kind of, I didn't know,

I didn't have this all figured out.

Uh, I kind of stumbled into it, is that, uh, because I've made movies and written

so much about history and black history and things like that, um, you know, I'm

kind of, that's how they see me and that's kind of a, a problem and not a problem.

Right.

You know?

'cause you know, they always wanna pigeonhole you.

Sure.

Uh, but I don't mind being pigeonholed.

I mean, and that, and I've got more things that I can do than that.

But as a whole, I got a lot of projects come with me that

are from that subject matter.

Sure.

And, and I love that stuff.

I'm a history guy.

I'm a black history guy.

That stuff means stuff to me.

Yeah.

Um,

I would say that is a common thread in your work is Black history seems to be

like from the, your very first film Yeah.

Up until your latest, you were basically it's telling stories about black history.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, and I tell you a bit, I didn't realize what it was

until I, until about a year ago.

It was during COVID, I think.

And, and, you know, and I was thinking about shit.

And, and I remember, I think I was in like fifth grade and, well, when Martin Luther

King was killed, I was in fourth grade.

Hmm.

And that's really when I learned I was black.

Because you, no one, you don't really know who you are until

someone kind of tells you

Hmm.

Who

you are.

Mm-hmm.

You know, in terms of race or religion or something like that.

Right.

You know, ethnicity.

Uh, and so, you know.

Yeah, I kind of knew I was black, but what a, what a point.

It was not, you know, it didn't matter.

Right.

But then, uh, Dr. Dr. King is killed, and I was a current events history kid.

Okay.

I saw it on the TV that night.

My mother screaming, crying, all upset, just like totally outta

control going school the next day, Martin Luther King was assassinated

last night, and my teacher says, we won't be talking about that.

Wow.

We won't be talking about that.

Wow.

And of course, I'm obsessed with it after that.

Sure.

Because that's all you wanna talk about.

That's all you want after somebody tells you, we're not gonna

talk about that.

And your senior mother's reaction at home.

And also too, I think for people listening, you know, Kansas is

not necessarily known for its large African American population.

No.

And Junction

City was the, it was a black town.

Yeah.

It's, it's like, it's like 50% black, you know, it's like, you

know, and so, 'cause in Fort Riley, the Buffalo Soldiers were there.

Right.

You know, but, uh, but that same year I stumbled on a comic book as a kid.

Classics Illustrated, and it was devoted to black history.

Hmm.

And I, and, and me being a history guy, I didn't know anything about black history.

I had never heard, I didn't know there was a such thing as black history.

Right.

And so, so I find this comic book and it's got Christmas ATTs was the first

person killed in the American Revolution.

It was a black man.

Like what?

And I see Dr. You know, Dr. Hale Williams is, uh, he creates his blood

plasma and he does the first heart operation and all these first and about

black people and Christmas and, and Harry Tubman and Frederick Douglas.

And it's like, what, why, what is all this?

And it was a comic book.

Wow.

It was a comic book.

Wow.

So the, so I was introduced to Black history through a

comic book.

That's incredible.

And also makes sense why you would then translate that into movies.

Yes.

That's such an easy, like, that's such a like, sort of Yes.

Uh, jump that you can make pretty quickly.

Right.

It's like storyboards and for a film.

That's right.

And, and also I saw it as entertainment,

right?

Oh,

sure.

Because it entertained me.

It entertained me.

It's like the problem pictures that entertained me, this

comic book entertained me.

Yeah.

And it's like, oh, so this is, this is, I'd like to tell stories like this.

And I always liked history anyway, so this is up my outlet.

It's incredible.

But, but, but yeah, man, and it just, it was such a, it's told

me so much about myself, right?

Yeah.

You know, it's like where my head was you responded to Yeah, yeah.

Where your head was when you're in fourth, fifth grade, you

know, and seeing that comment.

But I remember that thing had such an impact on me when I saw it, because,

because I was a history guy and I knew.

Yeah.

You know, and I could, in class, I was a history dude.

I could break shit down.

It's like, oh yeah, but Napoleon, he did.

You know, you know what I mean?

I'm, I'm that dude.

Right.

But this was like a, a world that had been totally kept from me.

Wow.

And so I became obsessed with that after that, obviously.

this is incredible.

Well, so I want to get to, uh, teaching where teaching comes in for you.

Sure.

So, because you're, you know, for somebody making films in Kansas to premiering

at Sundance, working with Spike Lee, like you've had some incredible, uh,

victories as an independent filmmaker.

And two things that stick out to me about your career that I find

fascinating and really inspiring are that you stayed in Lawrence and you were

teaching during this whole time, and.

Uh, those are strong choices to make.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of people may have moved to LA and tried to

just throw their lot in full-time, uh, with making their next film.

And so I'm curious as to why you decided to both stay here and to teach.

Well, you know, I tell you, and I think that one of the big things was

that, and when I was a kid and I was talking about the re looking to the

Montgomery Ward catalogs and looking at the eight millimeter cameras, right.

Uh, I dreamed about making films with some my friends, you know, even a little kid.

It just never happened.

So really when I got to ku, I finally got to make films with my friends.

Interesting.

You know, and they had the equipment.

They had the equipment, and they had all the equipment.

They had the sound and the, and the editing and the, the red

Cameron's like, oh, the glory.

Hallelujah.

I finally, I finally got to live out that dream.

I had.

Wow.

When I was a little kid.

Yeah.

And, and Matt Jacobson was, I tell him all the time, it's like you, I mean, you were

the guy I was dreaming about as a kid.

I was looking for someone who could help take these ideas in my

head and make them into a reality.

Yeah.

And, and, and I would, I tell people, it's like, you know, if you, if you want to, if

you're a writer or a director or got ideas you need, you need to connect with people

that can make your dreams come true.

And because you can't do everything.

Film is not a one man show.

No.

It's a team sport.

And so you have to have, so really I was able to build a community really kind of

through my first film ninth Street, and then through CSA, and then, then when I

taught, then I was able to really build a really close knit community in Lawrence.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, uh, that really was my film family, you know?

And that's that more than anything is Y state because it gave me the autonomy.

Gave me the freedom to tell stories I wanted to tell.

Interesting.

And you know, the thing that activism also taught me was that,

you know, you don't really change much of anything in activism.

So if you are looking to change things, if you, if you, if, if you're

gonna be an activist and if you can't change things, you're gonna quit.

Well, you shouldn't probably be an activist 'cause you're

not gonna change much.

So activism, a large part of activism is really what you believe in is just,

you know, so it's like, you know, so I make movies that I believe in.

Right.

And I don't really care what happens after that.

I don't really care if a lot of people see them.

If they do, great.

If they don't, that's fine too.

I mean, you always wanted to have a big success, but it, but it doesn't, that

part of it, the re the re inactive, you can't be caught upon results.

Mm-hmm.

Because when you come caught up in results, you just quit.

Right.

It's just too depressing.

Right.

But I mean, shit doesn't change.

Yeah.

You know, so, so I, I remembered that from activism and I've embraced that and, uh,

and, and trying to remember why I wanted to be a filmmaker in the first place.

I wanted to be a filmmaker because of the stories.

I wanted to tell, stories that I believe in and that my friends believed in.

Right.

And, and they're fun.

They're fun to make to with my friends.

They're fun.

We have a good time making those movies.

Yeah.

It's not work.

Yeah.

It's, it's, it's pure enjoyment.

And it's making cotton candy outta air.

It's just like, suddenly you got this thing that you've made and

it's a thing you can look at.

Now it's like, how did that happen?

Well, I had an idea and I got this guy and we wrote it on a piece

of paper and next thing you know, it's like it actually exists.

Right.

It's just crazy.

And that's also kind of like your playwright background too.

It's just like that's, that's sort of in the spirit of like putting

on a show by any means necessary.

We're gonna That's right for everybody.

You bring the camera, I'm gonna bring the That's right.

You know, the, the actors

script.

And I try not to get that part of it script.

Yeah, I try not, because in the end, that's all we're doing.

Right.

That's all Hollywood does.

They just do a bunch of money in a business.

But in the end, it's a is we're gonna get, it's a bunch of people

again we can put on a show, right?

Yeah.

Right, right.

And, and uh, and, and they, but they turn it into such a corporate thing.

They make it all, you know, stiff and controlled and shit.

Uh, but in the end, that's what it is.

Yeah.

Uh, and so.

You know, my whole thing has been trying to not forget that

part of it and staying here.

It's like you being in Austin, staying in a city kind of outside of

the, of the industrial part of film.

It helps you to do that.

Yeah.

Because you, you've got a community of people that I know you have

that kind of keep you honest.

Mm-hmm.

And it, and, and it keeps your values in check and intact.

And you, you tend not to lose yourself, you know, which is so easy to do

with this shit is so easy to do.

And I have that story.

I have to Winnebago, man, I moved to LA and I was, you

know, I was gonna be miserable.

Yeah.

Uh, I wasn't miserable.

I, I was going in this direction where I had made a comedy.

I wanted to make people laugh.

Yeah.

I had almost literally never written a screenplay up to that point.

Even though I'd written a couple little things here or there, and all of a

sudden I've told my agents and managers, I want to make narrative comedies.

Yeah.

And that's a huge hill to climb, you know?

And to do that after having a successful film, when really had I stayed in

Austin and worked with my friends and made the next funny film that we

had come up with together, I would've been a lot more successful than

trying to blaze this trail on my own.

And I, but I got it in my head that, that's what you needed to do.

Well, that's what told successful.

That's

what everybody's told.

Yeah.

And, and, and it probably helped me too, man.

I, I might've easily done that as well.

It helped me that I had a family.

Yeah.

So I had a reason to stay here too.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it's like, you know, I didn't wanna, you know, I lived in

New York, you know, with my family right after I graduated from NYU

and, and you know, and it wasn't bad and had a good friend there and.

But it, but you know, uh, it's hard to have a family in New York and

live the way kind of, I like to live.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, I like, I like, one thing I love about

Lawrence is it's easy living.

I don't have to think about living here.

Mm-hmm.

It just kind of happens, you know what I mean?

Right.

I ain't gotta worry about, you know, my drive to there and my, you

know, how am I gonna get over there?

And I mean, I don't have to, you know, I don't have to worry about that stuff.

Right.

It's just easy.

I can concentrate on those things that I really want to concentrate on.

Sure.

Uh, those are hard enough as, as it is, as it is.

Uh, but yeah, you know, it, it is easy to kind of do that because

everything tells us to do that.

Mm-hmm.

You know, uh, but, you know, you were able to hold onto your voice

and you were able to keep your voice and, um, and we all kind of.

You know, we, uh, you know, there's been times where I've tried to, you

know, everybody's, you know, they, they think, well, if you do X, Y,

and Z, you'll just, they'll buy that.

They'll do that and say, and sometimes you get desperate a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you need some money or something and, and you try to do this thing.

And of course it never works out.

No.

Because then, because they, it's almost like they can smell it

on the project or something.

Totally,

totally.

Totally.

Man.

And so I think we all fall into that hole a little bit, you know, and, but,

you know, but my documentaries, uh, we created a nonprofit a few years ago

and it's called Do Good Productions.

And, and I make these documentaries that are kind of like my features where,

um, about something I want to say.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, a story I want to tell.

It's not about money.

We don't make any money.

Mm-hmm.

That's why it's a non-profit.

Right.

And, but I, and they, I air them on the local PBS.

Yeah, that's where I was able to watch 'em.

Yeah.

And I, you know, it wasn't until I went to your IMDB page and saw that

you've made three documentaries in the last, what, two years?

Three years?

Yeah.

make one about it once a year or so.

That's,

that's incredible.

And, and you know, it, one of the things I was struck by with your

films is that, um, the William Allen White one, for example, is about a

pioneering journalist, uh, around the turn of the century, uh, a little

bit later in the teens and twenties.

But you, in telling his story, uh, he was very much, uh, against populism.

Yes.

And in you cutting to B roll away from some of the interviews,

you cut to Trump and you show like, make America great again.

Hats.

Yeah.

And you and I was so struck by that juxtaposition, like you are making a very

pointed comment about where we are today and sort of also not being afraid to.

Make it about right now.

Whereas sometimes filmmakers get a little bit of afraid to

reference things too directly.

I, I think Ben, I think that's the connection that Spike and I also have.

Interesting.

Yeah, because Spike's never been afraid.

And, uh, and you know, when you do the activism thing and when you've

kind of been on the outside of society, uh, and you've tasted what

I call the other end of America.

Mm-hmm.

Um,

what do you mean by that?

What is the other end of America?

Well, the

other end of America is, is being a nigga, is being called a nigga.

I've been called a nigga several times in my life, and it's not just being

called the word, it is seeing the face, the thing that you remember when people

say that you remember their face.

Mm. You remember the hatred that they have on their face or, or the, you know, the

exclusion that they have on their face.

I remember in, in, I remember it so many times in college where.

There'd be some girl that was all interested in me, you know,

and, uh, why some white girl?

And she'd be all kind of, and then I, and then she'd want to

introduce me to her parents.

And then you see their face, and you just see their face just, just drop,

just, just, just drop, you know?

And, and you, and they don't know anything about me but my color.

Wow.

And you just see them go like, we don't want that.

We don't want you, we don't, you know, get away from us.

You know?

Wow.

And, and, you know, and, and that's just one example, but, you

know, there's, there's hundreds of those examples all the time.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, and.

So you, so when you've tasted the other end of America and, you know, been dis

you've been, if you've been discriminated against or, or, you know, I was, had been

discriminated against that when I was a kid on jobs, you know, and when you,

when you, when you've tasted that shit and you've seen it up close and personal

mm-hmm.

You kind of, then, uh, that stuff is good for you.

It's really, really good for you because you understand, you get, you develop an

understanding about human beings and, you know, and you kind of know the difference

between good people and bad people, and you're not afraid to make a judgment call.

And, and so it's, anyway, but it's, but it, it's, it's that thing that,

that, um, allows you to the freedom to feel like, my opinion matters,

right?

My opinion matters, and I'm gonna share it.

I'm not afraid to share it.

And, and I, I wanna tell, I mean, you know, you have to

feel like you, what you say.

Matters.

Right.

And you know, I mean, so many times I think filmmakers, they, they make,

it is like, it's like Democrats.

They make you feel like, well, I don't want to, you know, just

be out there pontificating.

It's like, no, are you a leader or not?

Mm-hmm.

If, if you're making a film that makes you a leader, you are a leader, you are

stepping out of the pack, you're saying, I'm telling this story for the world.

So you're putting your, you got your flag and you put it in the ground and you're

saying, look at me and look at my story.

And if you're not willing to do that, then, then you should just go back

home and forget about it, because you have to be willing to make, to say

something and then stand by it and not be afraid when the criticism comes.

I've had people, I've got death threats with CSA.

Oh yeah.

All the time.

That Right.

You got death threats.

Death threats as a result of threats.

Two of the best stories about CSA and the reaction guy worked

at Kansas City, uh, blockbuster.

He said, man, he says, one time a dude brought back your movie, he said, I

hate this movie so much, and snapped the DVD in half right in front of us.

Wow.

He said, one time we got the movie back and it was covered with shit.

It was just covered with shit.

Yeah.

Wow.

Oh yeah.

And those are the two best conflicts I think I've ever seen.

I was gonna say as an, as somebody who's trying to provoke a strong reaction, Hey,

bet you can't, you can't get better than that.

Right.

That's the best, that's the best reaction I could ever get.

Wow.

Because obviously it fucked him up.

Yeah, yeah.

To the point where he had to destroy it in front of people.

He wanted to show, he wanted to destroy it in front of people, in front of the people

who owned the video that, in front of the

people that owned the DVD.

And what do you, I mean, that's fascinating to think about,

like what maybe happened.

To him as a result?

Like, did that live in his brain back there?

And did you like, oh, lemme tell you, man, I've had friends, man.

Did you plant a seed that is now growing?

Like maybe that guy's leading like the

NAACP

Kansas City

or something?

Exactly.

Man, there's a guy, there was a guy, good, good buddy of mine.

I love this guy.

But, but he, and he kind of gave me some footage for the film.

He does civil war enactments and stuff, and he gave me some

footage we used in the film.

Okay.

And I told him about the movie, but he didn't understand what

I was saying when I told him.

And then he saw the film and then he wrote me this long letter and he just

kind of really let me have it about how it was wrong and da da da da da da da.

You know?

And, and, you know, and he, you gotta understand he made a

living on those reenactments.

Mm. Right.

So you can Celebrating the south celebrating, well, celebrating the

Civil war, which is also the south.

Mm. So you gotta, and and so these guys, those guys that Dr. Confederate

uniforms, a lot of those guys still believe in the Confederacy.

Right.

And they're.

They got that Confederate mentality.

So, um, so then about a couple years ago he wrote me and he said, I just

wanna wr write you and tell you man how sorry I'm about that letter I sent you.

He said, I was totally wrong.

You were so firm much further ahead than I was and understand this shit.

But Trump had made him see the Arab, his wife Wow.

That he's seen how the Confederacy had, now that these people have

taken the Confederacy and now we're living, now we're living in the CSA,

I think we're living in the CSA now.

I mean, it's no longer USA, it's the CS Act.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, and, and, and it can be the USA again, but we're gonna

have to fight and get it back.

But we are living in the CSA right now.

And, and he saw that, he saw that, and he's a, he was a good enough guy

and a deep enough thinker because most people can't admit they're wrong

and most people are not going to take the time to apologize about it.

And he did.

It was, it was, it was really, it was pretty pretty.

It was, it showed you that, you know, the thing you were saying

from the very beginning about you have to believe that stories you

tell can affect people like that.

Right.

You know, and not every, I mean, I like to make people laugh too.

I mean, not every story is, you know, life changing, altered kind of shit.

Right.

But there's a part of that story in there somewhere where you're making

a moral judgment about something and you can't be afraid to do that.

Man.

I think this is about as good as it's gonna get.

Kevin, this is really incredible.

I, uh, I, you've given me so much to think about and this is exactly what I

was hoping, uh, to talk with you about.

Good.

Uh, and you know, I, I want to be respectful of your time.

We we're a little bit over an hour.

One thing we didn't talk about Sure.

Is that.

This is a documentary podcast where we go on walks.

Mm-hmm.

And when I ask you to do this, you said, I would love to,

but can we not walk very much?

And so that is why we've been sitting at a table Sure.

Here having this conversation.

Yes.

Rather than walking.

Uh, and then as we stroll back up here, I want to ask you about your,

your decision to stay in, in Lawrence.

I understand meant that here, lemme just stay on this side of you Sure.

Meant that, um, you, you can make films with your friends,

but also staying in Kansas.

Kansas is a deeply read Republican state.

Yes.

And so when you were talking about how, you know, we we're living in the CSA.

You know, you, the Republicans have sort of jumped the shark

and have you, you live in Yeah.

Enemy.

I living, I'm living, I'm living in enemy territory and so

I live behind the lines, man.

That's right.

And so was part of teaching for you and part of staying here in its own way,

uh, an act of activism or rebellion?

I, I think, I think, I think so, man.

And also man Lawrence is, is if Lawrence is the only place

I could have lived, yeah.

You know, it's the, it's

similar to Austin where I live, which is like, it's the, it's the liberal.

Yes.

Uh, uh, it's the red

do and the blue.

It's the, it's the blue.in the red state.

Exactly.

It's the blue do in the red state.

And, and because of that, you know, it's enabled me to kind of do my thing.

Yeah.

You know, and feel like I, you know, wasn't really totally outta place.

Does it, uh, does it rev you up?

Like does it, does it sort of rile you up and feed that sort

of creative spirit in you?

Yeah,

man.

And also, you know, it's, I mean, I grew up in Kansas.

Yeah.

So it's like this is, uh, it's not like I didn't know.

Right.

You know, I've been around rednecks my whole life and, and

you know, so I'm used to it.

Uh, and partly these kind of say too, it's like, you're not gonna

run me off of if I wanna stay here, you're not gonna run me off.

Mm. You know?

Interesting.

It's my house too.

Yeah.

It's my state too.

It's my country too.

Absolutely.

Well, and we need voices like yours, like symbols.

Not, not to say you're a symbol, but like you're a a an example to students that

you can tell challenging stories and also you can do it outside of Los Angeles.

You can do it your own

way.

In some ways, I think, man, that, uh, Hey bro, uh, some ways I think it's

like when you stay in a place like this and you make a choice to kind of.

You know, not go to New York or LA you, uh, it makes it easier

for you to, to tell those stories.

Mm.

You know, if one thing, it's, it's, you know, you don't have to ask permission.

Interesting.

The big thing about, to me about,

you know, telling stories like I've been telling is I don't have to ask permission

because I decide what I'm gonna tell.

I tell it.

And, and so by that you mean like you can raise the money here.

You raise the money, can work with your friends.

You can make things here in a way that's easier than I, destination,

plant Negro movie cost me $7,000.

Wow.

Seven.

You made a movie here for $7,000.

Yeah, it's on

Amazon.

Wow.

Yeah.

And West Studio is at it.

And no one got paid.

Took me three years.

Yeah.

Did a little bit at a time, but I knew going in it was gonna take me a long time.

Right.

And I, so I just didn't worry about, you know, that.

And we, we did, we worked on the weekends and we, you know, uh, did it

a little bit of time and it was great.

Wow.

It wasn't frustrating because I knew it was gonna take a long time and so,

but it only cost some, I and I knew that I didn't wanna waste years trying

to persuade the industry to give me something I knew they didn't wanna gimme.

Right.

So I just did it myself.

Wow.

And that's the power of living in a little poo butt town

in a, in a

a p butt town.

You know, that way you could, you could just get your friends together

and they all can understand.

Yeah.

We just wanna make a movie too, man.

Right.

let's just do this thing.

Right.

And we don't have to ask anybody for anything.

You.

And then, and then that movie got me tenure.

And that movie got you tenure.

Yeah.

At KU CSA got me tenure.

Wow.

And so, and that, that movie got me, uh, uh.

Uh, a full professor.

Wow.

So Kevin, you just retired this year?

Yeah.

You're 65, you said?

Well, I'm, I'm 67.

Oh, 67.

Yeah.

Sorry.

And so, but you said you're busier now than you've ever been.

Yeah.

So what's next?

Well, actually I'm going to, uh, direct a new movie here, uh, next

month, man, in, uh, North Carolina.

It's called The Bard.

Okay.

BRD.

And it's about George Moses Horton.

And he was the first African American to, uh, to publish,

to be published in America.

And he was a slave.

Wow.

It's crazy.

And it's a kind of a Berg rec story.

Okay.

He was, he lived in, uh, chapel Hill, North Carolina.

Okay.

University.

And that's how he kinda got published.

But it's, uh, it's a great story.

And is, are you gonna make it with your friends?

From your

No, this

is, I was, no, this is a, this was a paid gig.

Wow.

Okay.

They hired me to co to uh, re to co-write it and, and direct it.

Okay.

And, uh, so yeah, I mean, I'm very excited about it.

It's David Strahan is, is in it, and, uh, and it's gonna be a really cool film.

Oh,

well, I love all your films.

I am so appreciative, uh, that you and I got to be friends that I met you

when I was a student at KU and that, uh, you took the time to do this.

Oh,

man, man, we, like I say, man, we're, we're all very proud of

you, brother, and it's great to see you doing your thing, man.

You know?

'cause you know, it, it's, it's, you know, seeing you do your thing, doing this right

here, such a great reminder to me of like, this, this is, this is what it's about.

Yeah.

We're doing our thing, man.

And you, you can say whatever you wanna say with this.

And I also can celebrate the the things that inspire me.

Exactly.

And that reminded me of why I wanted to do this in the first place.

That's right.

And you were one of those people and I'm so grateful that you took

the time Oh, to talk to me anytime

my friend.

Any anytime, man.

Cool.

All right, let's cut.

All right.

So that was Ben's solo walk with Kevin Wilmot there in Kansas.

I've been to Kansas, but I haven't been with Ben and I've

never met Kevin Wilmot till now.

So I really appreciate you sharing that.

Absolutely.

Well,

and thank you for indulging me.

This one was longer than usual.

Um, we're playing around with length, so this one's a little over

an hour, whereas typically we've been more at like a half hour point.

So we want to hear from you guys.

Do you like when the episodes are shorter?

Do you like when they're longer?

Yeah.

How much doc

walkin do you need?

We need the steps either way.

So,

so you let us know in the comments, please.

And, uh, let's see, for next week, we have,

next week we have us.

So it's, um, this Kevin Will, on episode is episode 15 of Doc Walks.

We're

celebrating a milestone.

We are 15 episodes into this, which means that we've made about 10 plus hours

of quality podcasting at this point.

Well second, let's worry about how much of the 10 hours is quality,

but cumulatively we've been at it for, for about six months now.

That's right.

And, uh, and we've been sharing these with you for about three months.

And we're, we're still showing up and still happy to be here.

We wanna talk to you guys more about what you want, what we can be getting into, who

we should be talking to, and what's next.

And so we're gonna pause and kind of reflect on, um, 15 episodes, how we're

feeling about it, what we would like to do more of, and um, what we like

the most about doing this so far.

So anyway, we're out on a walk right now.

This is actually the end of episode 15, but it might as well begin be

the beginning of episode 16, 'cause that's what we're doing today,

and we'll catch you next time.

On Doc Walks.

Doc Walks is created, produced, and edited by my friend Ben Steinhower of the Bear.

Hello

and my friend Keith Maitland of Go Valley.

Thanks for

tuning in.