BONUS RE-RELEASE EPISODE 006 – Matt Wolf As Himself

12.25.2025 - Season: 1 Episode 6

Consider this a favorite re-wrapped Christmas gift just for you—Matt Wolf’s PEE-WEE AS HIMSELF documentary is streaming now on HBO, reminding us all that the best presents are the ones that make us feel like kids again. This holiday season we’re celebrating filmmakers who find magic in obsession and who build their own creative communities one passion project at a time. So pour yourself some eggnog, settle in by the fireplace, and unwrap our conversation with Matt—a filmmaker who turned his love of underground artists into a career that spans from cello-playing disco composers to the most beloved man-child in American comedy…

It’s a walk and talk through Matt Wolf’s Lower East Side neighborhood as Ben unspools the making of WILD COMBINATION and Matt’s path as a gay teen activist to documentary filmmaker. Matt opens up about why he never puts his own money into projects (and how he’s managed to pull that off), the importance of finishing what you start, and finding archives you didn’t know existed. We dig into his new soap opera doc filming behind the scenes at THE BOLD AND THE BEAUTIFUL, and Matt shares his philosophy on building a body of work that surprises even himself. Plus: the secret to finding your creative community in a Melrose Place-style Manhattan courtyard.

Timestamps:

00:00 Walking to Meet Matt Wolf in New York

01:26 Matt’s Melrose Place: Building Community in Manhattan

02:33 First Connections: Wild Combination and Arthur Russell

05:11 From Gay Teen Activist to Documentary Filmmaker

08:21 The Documentary That Was Made About Matt (And Why He Hated It)

09:45 Paper Tiger Television and the Experimental Film World

11:46 How Wild Combination Became a Feature (Accidentally)

13:11 Finding Your Niche and Telling Stories That Connect

16:29 The Search for Stories: Archives and Access

20:56 Never Put Your Own Money In: Matt’s Golden Rule

23:41 Taking a Break (And Why It Never Really Works)

25:32 The New Project: Behind the Scenes of Soap Operas

28:16 The State of Documentary: Shrinking Budgets and Staying True

31:27 Building a Body of Work That Surprises You

33:19 What Keeps Matt Going: The Love of the Work

35:37 Advice for Filmmakers: Finish What You Start

37:01 Wrapping Up the Walk

Discussion Links:

Speaking of rolling with the homies.

Who are we rolling with this week?

Keith,

we, we are re-rolling and by we, I mean you, because I wasn't

even there that, that time.

I am there this time for this part, but not for the rest of it.

What am I talking about?

I'm talking about Matt Wolf.

That's right.

We, I are going to re-release the episode that I recorded with Matt Wolf

in New York, but shortly before his, any winning doc series on HBO came out.

Called peewee as himself.

So when you recorded this, had you seen

Peewee as I had

not,

didn't know he was gonna win the Emmy.

Did not know he was gonna win.

The Emmy knew that it would be great because Matt is a great filmmaker and

I am a lifelong Peewee Herman fan.

So I was very excited.

But really this is a conversation between me and Matt and we talk

about his whole body of work.

We talk about, uh, the state of documentary, we talk

about how we generate ideas.

This is a great conversation.

It's wide ranging.

We go all over New York.

It was one of the highlights of this last year.

We're re-releasing it, and I hope you guys

enjoy it.

Thanks for being here.

Merry Christmas.

Happy holidays.

Enjoy this re-release of Matt Wolf and Peewee, and we will see

you at the end of the episode.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Ding, ding, ding.

On your left.

You're listening to Doc Walk with Ben and Keith.

Okay.

Recording.

Wait, no, I just turned it off.

Sorry.

Oh, I thought that was record.

Let's see, the red one is, should be record.

Let's see.

Did I hold it too long?

I don't know.

I'm just getting to know these, so if you just tap it.

There we go.

And then now you should,

yeah.

Great.

Okay.

All right.

Here we go.

We're off.

Trying to hold it like under my face in unflattering way.

Well, I don't think, uh, I don't think that's possible.

Oh, shush.

I want, I need to flip this camera around just to see like you're building.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

It's really wild.

This courtyard.

Gorgeous.

Yeah.

It's like a Melrose plate.

Hey Mark, how are you?

Oh God.

Um, yeah, it's a Melrose plate.

I mean, all my friends live here.

That is really incredible.

Yeah.

I, um, did you I dropped off, uh, equipment with actually another

filmmaker, Sierra Pettingill.

Okay.

Who was dating someone who lived here at the time and.

Um, I saw the courtyard.

'cause it doesn't look that exciting from the outside.

It's like, what, what is this place?

Yeah.

And then, uh, I walked over here 'cause this is, we're in a weird neighborhood

in Manhattan that people don't go to.

Yeah.

Where are we?

What?

What is the neighborhood?

Neighborhood?

Just like Lower East.

East, east side.

Okay.

And our park is under construction, but I'll take you to, uh.

I, I'll take you to a weird haphazard section of the

park that we can walk around.

Um, and, uh, and I came back and I stocked the building for

years and then Oh, you did?

you were like, I'm gonna live in this building.

I'm gonna,

well, I'm obsessed with the building.

Yeah.

Do you?

And, uh, I, uh, over time got other people to move into it and.

More friends have now moved into this neighborhood.

And so, you know, I have what they call a community, but like, you

know, the, the old school kind where everybody lives together.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

So it's commune.

Yeah.

You're treating your own commun situation.

I'm creating my own norc, naturally occurring retirement community.

So I guess we should do a setup here we are, uh, walking along.

Uh.

The sidewalk here in the Lower East Side.

Uh uh, and I'm with Matt Wolf.

Hello.

Hello?

Um, you and I met at some point, I don't know.

Yeah, maybe

eight, nine.

I, I don't remember.

When did, what was it, when did wild combination come out?

That came out in 2008, so

2008.

Okay.

Long time ago.

Yeah.

Winnebago man was 2009.

Yeah.

We did a, so we

probably met at a film festival around that time.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I've been a long time admirer of your work.

I, when I reached out to you, I told you that wild combination is still one

of those movies that sticks with me.

Oh.

And I think about how you used archival footage in that, where you were

like animating over the top of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, the poster image is like so strong and kind of seared in my brain.

Yeah.

I had no idea who Arthur Russell was, Uhhuh, and he's now like his music.

Is such a part of my, yeah.

My music listening.

Yeah, yeah.

Vocabulary these days that, uh, I feel like that film was really inspirational

and also like, made a big impact on me.

And so I've kind of followed your work ever since.

Thanks.

Um, and so you are, you have just made the Peewee Herman?

I have, yeah.

It's coming out very soon.

In the next uh, two months.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

And it's on HBO.

It'll be on HBO.

Yeah.

And it premiered at Sundance, right?

Yep.

Great.

Yeah,

we were actually there recording the podcast.

Oh, I'm forgetting that podcast.

Podcast

leading the way.

Yes you are.

I'm following you.

I have no idea where we're going.

We're going on my route.

'cause my park is under construction, so it's a weird route.

Oh, so you do this walk a lot, huh?

Yeah, I'm a big walker and talker.

Great.

Well.

That's what we're doing.

That's perfect for our podcast.

Yeah.

How many films have you had Premier at Sundays?

I don't know.

Between shorts and features, maybe five.

Cool.

Yeah.

So tell me, uh, how you got started.

Like where, where did you, how, how did you come to the idea that you could

make documentary films for a living?

Well, I have like a weird story with that in that I was a gay

teen activist in the media.

In the late nineties in Northern California, and there was the

documentary made about me and Oh, what

Really?

Yeah.

Where, where did you grow up?

Like where was it?

grew up in San Jose.

Okay.

And, uh, and this is like Matthew Shepherd, Ellen DeGeneres coming out time.

Okay.

And, uh, it was just being like a gay youth was a hot button issue at the

time, and I got like a scholarship.

Uh, this doc short documentary was made about me and I hated the experience.

And then I got written up in the newspaper complaining about the

documentary, and the woman wrote me saying, I loved this project and I'm

really troubled that you had a negative ex. I was like, I'm a fucking teenager.

Like, I'm just being angsty and complaining, like,

and how, how old were you?

No, at that then I was probably 17.

17, 17 or 18.

And how did they find you?

Like how did, who reached out?

Like what was that process like?

Well,

I was in the media, I was doing a lot of media for gay youth activism

and I think I, no, I applied for a full scholarship from Parade Magazine

and uh, now we're walking over a, yeah, we should cloud, rickety bridge.

We should explain where we are.

This is very,

we're in a mixture dynamic.

Pedestrian bridge to a commuter ferry that connect links up to the waterfront

park near my house that is currently incomplete, but we're going to the part

that is open that I like to walk around.

Yeah.

This is beautiful.

And so this is the East River here, right?

Yeah, it's the East river

coming up on a very fast moving tugboat.

Yeah.

Wow.

I love watching the.

Well, that's a ferry, but I love watching.

Oh, oh, I haven't been over here.

I want to see their progress.

That's, that was this seventies, kind of post atomic, uh, amphitheater.

And we hung out there every weekend and everyone would just meet there

and they raised the park, uh, six to eight feet for flood resiliency and

everybody protested, including me.

But now, you know.

I'm just dying for this park to open, but that's, that's the amphitheater area and

I haven't been on this bridge in a second.

And they're making, they're like moving fast.

Yeah, so they are.

It looks, hopefully this summer I've got my spot back.

It looks like it's gonna be pretty nice.

I mean, I don't know what I'm talking about.

The trees are not mature, so there'll be no shade.

But you know, Beggars can't be choosers.

Well, okay, so you, so you had a documentary made about you, and did

you feel like it didn't represent you

actively?

I, I was forced to talk in these sound bites, and I think in general

I was feeling like a kind of poster child and I was good at it,

but I thought I'd be like a gay.

Political activist profession, like a professional gay activist.

But I, you know, I got into independent film.

I went to see, welcome to the Dollhouse at the Indie Theater.

I worked at the Goth coffee shop and you know, the rest was history.

And, and, and so I, I fantasized here.

We can snake around this part.

It's nice.

Okay.

Uh.

I wanted to be a filmmaker.

I wanted to move to New York since I was, you know, 14, no way younger, like 10.

I wanted to be like, you know, Todd Haynes or something, and I got a

full scholarship and went to NYU Film School, and then I hated it.

I hated NYU, but I met a lot of great people who I would

go on to collaborate with.

Uh, I found a mentor in the filmmaker, Kelly Reihart.

Oh wow.

Yeah.

And uh, you know, at the time I was sort of anti school and I joined this video

activist collective called Paper Tiger.

Oh yeah.

Paper Tiger Television.

I remember that.

Right.

And I did a bunch of projects with 'em, and I got into the experimental film

world, largely through this festival.

Called the Mix Experimental Gay Lesbian Film Festival, which has

evolved into something else now.

But,

and, and to stop you really quick, the Paper Tiger was a public access show.

Yeah, yeah, correct.

Yeah.

Was it one show or was it a collective that made a bunch of shows?

It was a collective that did a lot of public access stuff, but other stuff too.

And we, uh, I was involved in helping present films made by queer

youth, like it was an extension of the activism I did in high school.

But in a experimental activist documentary kind of space.

So I was going to this mainstream film school doing this stuff at Paper Tiger,

kind of in community with a lot of visual artists and experimental filmmakers.

And increasingly it was like, I don't wanna make features.

I don't want to be that kind of filmmaker.

And I. Um, you know, left school with that feeling.

But I had these amazing collaborators like Jody Lee Lipes and Lance Edmonds, and Kyle

Martin, and I wanted to make a film about Arthur Russell, and I thought it would be

kind of this environmental video record.

In which it would be a multi-channel installation and every channel

would be like a different track featuring an aspect of his story.

And I started to interview people and as I was doing it, Jodi was like,

you know you're making a documentary.

I said, I'm not making a documentary.

And he was like, yeah, you are.

And then I was like, Welch, it's not, it's short.

He's like, why not?

Why isn't it a feature documentary?

I was just like, 'cause it's not.

And then it was, and I didn't have real expectations or entree into that

world, but the film found an audience and people continue to watch it.

I, I'm really lucky that that film.

That people discovered that film, and it's a small, little, tiny film, but

over time, you know, over 15, almost 20 years here, we can walk in a full lap.

Wow.

This is awesome.

Like, so we're on a, we're suddenly on a soccer field.

Yeah.

Here.

So when doing walking off

turf, people have their dogs here.

I'm struck by the fact that you came to this as a fan and not as somebody who.

Was sort of enterprising or trying to like tell a specific story.

Like you weren't saying,

I wasn't looking to, I was searching for what I'd make a film about, and I think

there was a particular moment in which I said, this is what I care about, so

why wouldn't I make a film about this?

Right.

You know, I think without very intuitive, not like.

I had no aspirations to be a documentary filmmaker.

But then in retrospect, it kind of brought together all the things

Yeah.

That I was into, or things I had been involved with and cared

about since I was a teenager.

So it made sense, but there wasn't a plan.

Right.

And so once you have success with your first film, what was the, what's the

next step that you take from there?

Um, to try to make a second film was really hard and you knew

right away like, I, I like this.

I wanna stay with making feature documentaries.

I think I found my niche.

Yeah.

I found a niche in which I could be me and that it became important to

me to do stuff that had an audience.

I don't think that's what I was thinking about when I made well combination, but

when I saw that there was an audience and context for me to show this work.

I wanted to continue to participate in that and I think like I think that I saw

a path, but also that by telling a story and doing something that was emotionally

involved, that people connected in a more visceral way and that I didn't like

come up being like, I'm a storyteller.

I wanna tell stories.

That actually really was not my interest.

But I think I realized, okay, When you tell a story and people get

involved and they have feelings, like it's a powerful thing, right?

And I think I just realized I had a knack for it and wanted to continue to do that.

Well, so, so here we are.

17 years after your first feature.

Yeah.

my God.

And I know, isn't that wild to think about it whenever somebody's like,

when did you make Winnebago, man?

And I do the math.

Yeah.

I always get a little depressed 'cause it feels like it was not very long.

It's

funny, I just had a retrospective at this film festival called Big Sky

and I, it didn't occur to me that it would be this trip, but I did Q

and as for everything I ever made.

Over the course of two days and I was like, oh my God.

Like so much of my whole life has been consumed and stressed

about making these films.

And I mark all time in my life about when films were being made.

And I was like, is that a good thing?

I don't, you know, it's kind of like the main thought I had is wow.

I remember being in crisis over that and then being like, oh, okay.

And then signing up to do it immediately again.

Right, right.

You know, like I associate a lot of it with stress.

Interesting.

Not joy,

because I, because again, we were saying this off camera before we

started walking, but you know, from where I sit, I look at you as

somebody who's extremely successful.

Thank you.

And having a retrospective is something that I hope to achieve

at some point in my career.

And the fact that you've already had that milestone.

Seems, yeah, seems lucky.

Really admirable.

I've been,

I don't know, I feel lucky and try not to take my opportunity or

visibility in any way for granted, but also I work in a modest way with

the exception of the peewee thing, which is in a different realm for me.

Like it's small, so you know, it's been sustainable, but

I'm operating in a niche way.

So how, talk to me sort of like walk me through the process, like how do you.

Well, uh, find and become interested in a story that you

think could make a good documentary.

I'm always looking and after a project, if I don't start a new one right away, which

is sort of the dream, and I'm doing that right now, it's only happened to me twice.

You know, I crash and then I'm really like, what am I doing?

And, you know, really hustle looking for film ideas.

You know, huge.

So following the lead of any idea I come up with and trying to get access

and seeing if my interest sustains as I start interacting with real people

who are connected to these ideas.

And yeah, some of those ideas don't stick.

I lose interest and others I kind of feel ambivalent about, but

still follow and then get involved.

I think I always had a fantasy that people would bring me stuff, which now

they, they do regularly, but it's, you kind of only really want to do stuff.

That's my idea.

I still want to hear about the other ideas 'cause you never know, but

I've never done one, so it's been, I had such a fantasy after a while,

combination that people would come to me with films and it would be, oh my

God, they closed this access point.

Oh we can get out over there.

And uh,

once that did happen.

It wasn't, I think I'm more artist oriented, like I want to

do my own thing on my own terms.

Right.

And so I don't really, I've kind of done stuff for higher film wise,

but it's never been the same for me.

But it's getting loud.

Yeah.

We were walking right underneath, lemme flip the camera around and show we,

there's a bulldozer right here and we are

underneath this under area that's been under Construction bridge for so long.

Right across.

We're gonna

get outta here.

Okay?

Yeah, no problem.

Is this bad for audio?

I think it's bad for audio.

How are you feeling at this point in the walk, by the way?

Is your arm getting tired or, I'm fine.

Um, okay, so I'm, we, we were starting to go into it about how you like to

work in a very specific way, and I'm curious what that way is, like, what

is your process once you identify an idea and decide that you're.

That it's worth making a,

I fill that.

I mean, really connecting with people, like developing relationships that

are explicitly connected to an idea.

Learning from people, meeting other people.

Mm-hmm.

Pre-interviewing people looking for archive.

Well, that's, I wanted to ask you about that.

'cause I noticed that a lot of your films have, are, are about subjects that have

a, a, a deep wealth of archival material.

Yeah.

Is that something that's like a prerequisite for you, or is that mm-hmm.

Something you're, you're actively searching.

It's just happening.

It's funny, it's like, I didn't know Paul Reubens had a thousand

hours of footage in his bedroom.

Uh,

wow.

A thousand.

I didn't know that.

Going into the commune, that created biosphere too, that they would have

a temperature controlled closet with hundreds of 60 millimeter films and

hundreds of tapes and thousands of photos, sort of like the subject matter.

Those people lend themselves to, to that sort of thing.

So the people that you focus on, it seems like they're by and large artists

and that that type of personality is the type that will record themselves

and have like a, almost like they're, they're making like a visual memoir

or something as they're going.

People who think what they're doing matters and are

documenting it and hold onto it.

Yeah.

And don't necessarily have a plan.

That would be a thread.

Okay.

Sounds a little bit like you with your first film.

Yeah, it's a little more narcissistic.

I think this idea that you matter, but I agree that what they did mattered

and so, I mean, it takes resources to save all that stuff too, but Right.

I think like it just so happens that everything I gravitate to has like some

monumental archive associated with it, but I do look for those archives, but.

That reverse engineer thing has never really worked.

Okay.

But I do look and I ask around, and the real thing I hope happens the

more films I make is that someone is like, I've got 500 hours of footage.

What should I do with it?

Like that has an exact, or maybe it's kind of happened, but not in a amazing

way, which that would be the dream.

Right?

And, and so how do you develop, like when you're in an early stage of an idea.

And, you know, in our business you have to put together pitch decks.

Yeah.

You know, proof of concepts or sizzles, even though I hate that term.

Yeah.

Um, how, how are you going about doing that?

Are you, you raise, I'm writing, do you raise a little bit of money to

go do that or do you put your own money into developing the materials?

I've never put my own money into anything.

Come

on.

No, I haven't Really?

Yeah.

It's like a little bit of a rule.

You've cracked the code.

This is amazing.

Yeah.

I mean.

I think I always was pretty savvy at being like, this is my job.

I'm not making significant personal sacrifices beyond my labor in terms

of making my labor and my ideas.

And I was very poorly and unfairly compensated on certain things, but I

signed up for that and agreed to it.

But I've never gone into debt or I don't have a reserve of significant

money to spend on other projects and.

Even for development, I've always asked for money from other people

and you know, I really see it as like step by step and the first step is the

relationships with people, then the access, and then through that process

having a sense of what the story is.

I'm a pretty good and fast writer.

Kind of writing down what that story is from the point of view of characters.

And then, you know, having.

In a simple way, a story, the access and the idea, and then trying to find, or in

our parlance, attach people who add value to that idea or who have resources, uh,

that are different than mine to make that into a thing that's actually happening.

And then when it's a thing that's actually happening, it's easier to get money.

Yeah, that's been my experience.

So like piece by piece.

Making something turn from an idea into a set of relationships with unique

access and then a compelling story, and then adding partners so that something

is snowballing and gaining momentum and that people have the opportunity to

get on that train as opposed to asking for permission to make for things.

Right.

That's always, I mean, not always, but that's my philosophy now at least.

Yeah.

I'm always curious to talk to other.

Uh, sp specifically doc filmmakers about what they're currently thinking

about and like what they're inspired by right now as we're walking.

Like what's, what's the latest thing that you've read that you're thinking about?

What's something that, you know, an idea that's kind of gnawing at Yeah,

I'm making a new film, so that's what I'm thinking about.

I kind of go in and out of absorbing a high volume of material.

Or, or like deprivation.

Not, although yesterday I saw a movie and went to a talk, but that's, I'm

on like a little two week break.

In fact, I was trying to create a writing project for myself.

Look at those.

They're cool.

Oh, wow.

So cool.

What are those?

They're playground sculptures that are really cool.

That's, and, uh.

I started to create all this work.

I just finished like 40 days of shooting on a new project and PeeWee's

coming out, and that's a whole thing.

And I was just kinda like, why don't you take two weeks and not try to

make stuff or do things like, and now, now I'm going to the movies and

stuff, but not with the intention of.

Percolating creatively.

In fact, I'm trying to consciously not do that for really like two weeks.

I mean, I have work I'm doing, but not trying not to do mentally heavy lifts.

What do you think?

Although that's also a hundred percent untrue because I just wrote

a treatment for a new film I did.

So it's, you know, so you're breaking your fast,

but I was already developing that.

I think it's kind of like a struggle for me.

To in some ways like shut up my brain right from filmmaking stuff.

But I'm, I need to, because I'm focusing on a new film, I need to

kind of reserve my energy for that, uh, while I'll be talking about the

peewee film, but that becomes pretty.

Routine, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Can you talk about your new film or you

Yeah.

It's about the world of soap operas and I'm behind the scenes

of the bold and the beautiful.

Um, and kind of a frame for the film is the unique family story of this

soap opera dynasty that was led by, um, someone named William J. Bell, who's

kind of a godfather of soaps and kind of worked with the originators of the

genre and created the young and the restless and bold and the beautiful.

And his son today runs the bold and the beautiful.

So I'm kind of exploring that world through that lens, and it's the

first real verite film I've made.

I'm having so much fun.

That's

incredible.

Yeah.

How

did you gain access and how did you Oh, it took years.

I mean, my friend was cast on a soap opera.

I, I didn't grow up on them and I watched and thought it was totally

crazy that this genre was so specific.

It's been going on for half a century and.

Tens of thousands of episodes.

And so I was in LA and I asked could I get a set visit?

And I shadowed this soap director who liked my idea and understood

I wanted to do something kind of highbrow, like a reappraisal.

And he connected me to everyone in that world and that world is small.

And that's how I came into contact with Brad Bell, who

runs the Bold and Beautiful.

And I understood the significance of this family within the industry and he

really started advocating for the film and we had to go through quite a process.

Um, but we have this kind of unprecedented access to film behind the scenes

of an non-network television show.

So.

It's a unique situation, but it took several years,

especially, it's a unique situation now as people are watching less

and less of network television.

Yeah.

Things like those legacy shows are becoming well and it's, it's

felt in this building called Television City, which you may know in la.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where the price is.

Right.

And the Carol Burnett Show.

And Sonny and Cher were filmed, but now CBS has sold

the building and it's sort of.

This ghost town except for the young and the restless and bold and the beautiful.

Wow.

And so the building itself represents that era or milieu of classic

television coming to an end.

Wow.

That is incredible.

Yeah.

I'm really into the new project and I'm interviewing editors right now and talking

through what the post process will be and sharing story insights with them.

So I'm really in that and I don't need to.

Be aggressively brainstorming new ideas, but in some ways I always need to be

kinda having that going on in my brain, which it is naturally, but I try, it's

less productive when I really force it.

Right.

And what do you think, um, you know, as somebody who is actively raising money and

pitching projects, like what is the state of our documentary industry right now?

It's bad out there right now.

There are just limited buyers, and I think there's always gonna be people

who are excited to get involved in films and that it's a bit of a circuit

that you get tapped into if you're actively making work and out there

visibly, but that it's just, it's a really tough time for most industries.

But the entertainment industry and the documentary side of it, which is.

Small is seriously contracting after a period of rapid expansion and ballooning

budgets and you know, I think not, they're not one person in our industry

who isn't concerned about the viability of doing what we do the way we've been

doing it for the past several years.

Yeah.

And so I'm hearing that a lot.

Yeah.

And I'm also feeling that personally.

Yeah.

And I am trying to adopt new technologies, do things like this.

Yeah.

Think about how to develop series that could be repeatable.

YouTube shows

Uhhuh.

Are you?

don't think that way.

Interesting.

Tell me, tell me more.

Why?

Because the only thing that's gonna work is if I do something

the way I always do it.

I don't think, like, I think the one thing I might have to adapt

to is shrinking budgets in a way in which I've become accustomed to

working with people who help me.

In all sorts of ways, and I might have to do more of that

myself and to be paid less.

Not that I'm making a ton of money, but I think like I'm making a living doing this.

And to do that may involve me doing more than I already do.

And to accept the, the limitations of how much money you can make as a documentary

filmmaker and to, I've always done a bit of commercial work here and there.

I'm trying to do more.

I'm trying to.

Pursue nonfiction writing and you know, I'm trying to diversify a

little bit, but also I am very privileged in terms of been given a

lot of opportunities to do my thing.

And so I try not to think from a standpoint of scarcity and to

just keep my head to the ground focused on what I'm doing.

And if it really, if I hit a brick wall, I will pivot, but.

It.

It's not gonna work.

If I'm trying to reverse engineer what I do to appeal to what is out there,

I'm not gonna be a true crime guy.

Right.

But you know, I'm making a pretty poppy film right now that I think

will be unexpectedly deeper, but that's kind of what I wanted to do.

But it's the right time to be doing something pop.

Yeah, unfortunately.

But it, it works for what I wanted to do.

Um, and I'm trying, I'm like, I think about my body of work a lot, about

a bigger story I'm trying to tell through all the different films I make.

Oh, I love that.

I, I, whenever I talk to students, I encourage 'em to think about that too.

It's like, it's not the film you're making now, it's the next

films you want to make afterwards.

And thinking about it as a

Yeah.

Collective.

So how, what, how do you view your body of work?

Thematic, formal, like.

Just choosing things that feel unexpected.

I don't think people would've thought that I would be pursuing a film about

soap operas, but it makes a lot of sense and I think when the film is

completed, it'll make a lot of sense.

And I, you know, I've passed on projects that I feel like are

repetitive things I've already done.

Not only because it's not necessarily gonna be challenging or interesting to

me, but also because I'm thinking about the collection of what I do and trying to.

Do things that feel surprising to myself and to people who watch my

films and to keep learning new things.

But if I'm doing it through my own instincts and attractions, like, you know,

it's, there becomes a kind of continuity through it that I've had enough experience

now to see that that just happens.

That's kind of why I don't wanna do other people's ideas.

Hang on just a second.

We are under a very laugh bridge.

What, what are we walking under here?

This is the Williamsburg

Bridge.

Oh, Williamsburg Bridge.

So, so then what, what is it that keeps you going, making this work?

We talked about how difficult it can be, how the budgets are shrinking.

You gonna have to work

more.

Oh, I love doing it.

I just love it.

I really do and like a lot of people are like very greener pastures, like,

I want to do fiction or dah, dah, dah.

I don't, I want to do what I do.

And it hasn't stopped being interesting to me.

It continues to be stressful, but I don't know what it looks like for me not to be

making a film like I've been doing it.

For a while, and I've been doing it since I was 23 or 24.

Like I love doing it and I just want to keep doing it.

It's interesting.

You did get like a twinkle in your eye just now saying that like you Yeah.

Real.

Yeah.

I mean it's real.

It's real.

You sort of,

I love, I feel lucky that I can do it and I love doing it.

Yeah.

And I hope that that comes across and.

My work, and I think it's part of how I've been able to get support is

I'm very passionate about what I do.

Do you?

So that's, and so is everybody who's making films.

But yeah, you have to, I think there is sometimes the tendency to wish

you were doing something else and I don't, I don't deal with that.

I'm very happy doing what I'm doing

and that right there is worth.

The stress that you mentioned and the The sacrifice.

Yeah.

But I'm

obviously to some extent, not always, but thriving off of that

pressure and those challenges.

I like to finish stuff.

Yeah.

And so I like to keep my eyes on the prize and to problem solve and

I'm getting good at that and things that would've stressed me out.

10 years ago, or like a blip, but there's no version of making

a film that goes smoothly.

Right.

Yeah.

My business partner likes to say it's called production

because it's always a production

and also just, it's just too many moving parts and too many people involved

for there not to be real hiccups.

Right.

Well, so we're coming up on your building here and, uh.

I'm, I'm curious to know what your advice to, um, aspiring filmmakers or

filmmakers who are just starting out.

Like, what would you, well, I always, what advice would you give them?

I always say the same thing.

I'll wait for the train.

Oh, yeah.

Thank you.

I always say that my advice is always the same.

You have to finish what you start.

If you don't finish what you start, you, you'll, you're

not gonna make other things.

You'll feel defeated or like a failure.

And if you finish something and it's not good, that's fine.

It is better than not finishing it and that then you're motivated to do it again.

To make, to make it better, to learn from mistakes or if your first, your first film

or whatever you're making is really good.

It's encouraging, it's energizing.

You want to keep going?

I, I just think you gotta finish.

Like, I'm very finished oriented, like finishing stuff.

Do you, you must have films that you have started and not finished though.

Yeah, but I didn't get very far and I was trying to assess if I wanted to make them.

Okay.

But once I really, I. Get in and I'm doing it.

I've never, not finished.

Well, we're coming up to the end of our walk.

How was this for you?

Swung?

Yeah.

Like,

yeah.

Matt, thank you again so much for doing this.

Thank you.

Matt Wolf.

Thank

you Matt Wolf.

Thank you Ben Steinhower for doing the heavy lifting on that one.

I would've loved to have been in New York, walk in my old neighborhoods with you.

And Matt, you got to see the sights.

You gotta talk about the things, the, that's you were over by the waters edge.

Did you catch any boats?

I knew you were gonna make fun of me.

About what is that?

A tugboat?

Is that tug?

Bbo very obviously a fairy.

What was I thinking?

Do I live in a children's book?

There aren't just tugboats, just, you know, steaming up

and down the, the East river.

I don't, we're gonna get letters from tugboat captains.

You know, I was involved in a documentary about tugboats, uh, not

too long ago, a couple years ago now.

Um.

Barge.

Yes.

By Ben Powell.

I love that document.

Right?

Like Ben

Powell barge.

I was a,

so I wasn't some sort, so I wasn't wrong, is what you're saying.

There might have been a tugboat,

there's there are tugboats in, in livers and Okay.

Bodies of water these days still.

Okay.

Well, I still felt a little bit like a moron and I'm glad to

let you guys in on the fact that I sometimes feel like a moron

and you have to get a first front review of what I see all the time.

But he's not the only one who feels like a moron.

Folks, we all do in one way or another.

But that's why we get together and create community and find and we talk about it.

Commonality.

That's right.

And so, uh, speaking of commonality and community, next time on Doc Walks,

we go to Sundance.

Well, we went to Sundance.

That's the thing.

We go to back to

Sundance.

But next

time is a re-release.

It's the last of a string of holiday re releases.

That's right.

We are still on a holiday vacation.

We are in between Hanukkah, Christmas and New Year's and we

in, in real life here in real life.

We are rereleasing this highlight from last year, which was us going to

Sundance and doing a sort of man on the street episode where we meet lots

of our friends, we make lots of new friends and we trudge through the snow.

It was Ben's first time ever at Sundance.

It was the Penn Ultimate Sundance in Utah.

And we took to the street, we met the people and we shared that

with you here in this episode.

And penultimate means second to last, right?

Because this year, this year will be the last year.

And we will also be there to cover that with cameras.

This time with cameras.

This is an audio only episode.

We were just using the microphones and not the video cameras for this one.

So you're not gonna see our heard faces, but you will hear our beautiful voices.

You'll have to let us know what you think.

Please enjoy next week's episode, Sundance Mail Streets Revisited Re-Release Reduc.

That's right.

And, uh, this is technically the last episode of the year.

So we, uh, thank you guys.

This has been a great year for us.

We hope it's been a great one for you and we hope that 2026 is the best one yet.

Alright.

Thank you man.

Alright, thank you Keith.

Happy dog.

Walking dog walks is presented, directed, created, edited by myself and this guy.

Hello.

We couldn't do it without co-producer Dayton Thompson, who?

No, we couldn't.

Thank you.

Dayton continues to knock it outta the park.

Thank you Dayton.

And thanks to the folks at the Bear,

the folks at Go Valley.

We have a team of interns that are working hard for us

and, uh, thank you for sticking around.

If you're still here, you're a die hard and we appreciate you.

We'll catch you next time.

On Doc

walks,