BONUS RE-RELEASE, EPISODE 002: Look Out for the Ice – Live from Sundance

01.01.2026 - Season: 1 Episode 2

Consider this your midnight toast to new beginnings—we’re popping the cork on our Sundance episode just in time for the calendar reset. As 2024 turns to 2025, we’re grateful for the documentary community that keeps showing up, keeps creating, and keeps walking these festival streets in search of collaborators, inspiration, and maybe a free hot cocoa. So grab a glass of whatever you’re having, bundle up (it’s 31 degrees in spirit), and ring in the New Year with Ben and Keith’s man-on-the-street adventure through Park City…

We’re walkin’ and talkin’ through the heart of Sundance, crashing the festival without a film and somehow finding exactly what we came for. From chance encounters with Iranian filmmakers debuting their first feature to freestyle raps from parking lot attendants, this episode captures the serendipity of showing up. We debate whether you need to be a “hopeless optimist” or a “pragmatic realist” to survive indie filmmaking (spoiler: legendary producer Sue Kim has strong opinions). Along the way we spot tuxedo pigeons, dodge UPS trucks, and nearly intercept Conan O’Brien. Plus: the house analogy for selling your film that actually makes sense.

Timestamps: 00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: Sundance Day 00:49 First Impressions: 31 Degrees and Feeling Like Imposters 02:42 Why Sundance Matters (Even Without a Film) 04:13 The House Analogy: Films, Sales Agents, and Finding Your Plot of Land 07:41 Man on the Street: Volunteers, Skiers, and the Latino Flu Panel 11:17 Meeting Frank Mosley: In-Person Connection in a Virtual World 15:28 Iranian Filmmakers Debut: Cutting Through Rocks 17:48 The Adobe House and Free Hot Cocoa 19:56 Chosen Glory: Parking Lot Freestyle and Good Vibes 22:08 Speed and First: Hope for the Future Generation 25:32 Producer Sue Kim: The Case Against Hopeless Optimism 29:13 Hopeful vs. Hopeless: Finding Your Festival Philosophy 34:24 Wrapping Up Day One and Looking Ahead

Discussion Links: CUTTING THROUGH ROCKS (2025) | OVEX (2025) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | TOWER (2016)

Hey everyone.

My name is Dayton Thompson and I am usually behind the scenes, but

today I'm out front for the intro because Ben and Keith dropped the ball

and went off for their New Year's.

However, I'm excited to introduce the Sundance re-release of episode two.

Watch Out for the Ice.

I enjoyed it when it came out the first run, but I think

y'all might enjoy it even more.

This go, so please do enjoy.

On your left.

You're listening to Dock Walks with Ben and Keith.

We are rolling.

Oh, where's my phone?

I need that.

You can't

go to Sundance without your phone.

Check, check, check, check.

Windscreen adjustment check.

Oh, almost forgot my glasses.

We're gonna get outta this condo one day, Keith.

All right.

What do you think, Keith?

You ready?

Yep.

I'm just plugging in the the walking directions.

Closing the condo door.

And we're off.

And

here we go.

Alright, thank you, robot.

All right.

According to my phone, it is 31 degrees here in Park City.

Today's high is 31 degrees, so this is as warm as it is gonna get.

The low is 15 degrees, which is not so bad.

'cause when we got here last night, I think the low was eight degrees.

was very, very cold last night, walking back from the party, I was struggling.

This is almost like a balmy 31.

I feel pretty good.

Well, is this where we should talk about how you talked me into coming

here and I said I didn't want to?

I am.

I'm actually fairly uncomfortable being in a film festival

where I am not showing work.

I feel like I'm crashing a party in some way.

And so being here to record our podcast makes me feel a little more like I belong.

But I would say in general, I feel a little bit like an outsider here.

Yeah, I could appreciate that.

Um.

I do feel like I twisted your arm a little bit and maybe even tricked you

a little bit just so I wouldn't have to wander these streets by myself,

but okay, Keith, so what are we doing?

We are walking down Deer Valley Drive into the heart of Park

City, and why are we here?

Why are we here?

I always look at Sundance as kind of like the kickoff of the new year.

It's like the calendar year begins here late January in Park City.

And what happens here over the course of the next five or six

days in a way, can kind of set the tone for how this year just may go.

Right?

And we are here at a pivotal time.

Uh, we just had an election.

There is the threat of AI looming.

There is declining viewership with social media competing for eyeballs.

So it does feel like we're in a particularly transitional

state at the moment.

We're here to take a look around, talk to some people, and score a few

free drinks at some parties, and, uh, kind of fill up our cup, start the

new year, fill a little fresh inspira,

and really anybody who is here to make a living making documentaries

or indie films is here.

Looking for funding, looking for collaborators, present, company included.

Here we are walking up to Main Street where this all happens.

It's the main artery.

Of the festival and everybody's walking around looking each other up

and down, looking to see who's here.

See, it looks like there's a lot of people gathering outside the Shutterstock chalet.

There's the Adobe House home of Adobe Premier and maybe some free hot cocoa.

Oh, I could go for some free high cocoa.

Here's the Disney store,

you

know,

and well, the indie shit,

all the independent artists represented you.

I like how every once in a while we see a guy like this here who is, um,

clearly only here to be skiing, click clacking in the ski boots up mainstream.

We are passing along line here.

Are people waiting to see a film?

Hi, one movie.

Are you waiting to see?

It's not a movie.

It's uh, um, it's a panel Latino flu panel.

Oh.

They're for, uh, emerging filmmakers.

Oh, cool.

Who's on the panel?

Do you know?

Uzman.

Oh, cool.

Very cool.

And there's gonna be speakers like Christina Ani, Ian Rodriguez,

ADA Del, Joanna Hernandez, Margo.

And then at three, it's uh, from the Dream Toree, the Indie

Filmmakers Road Roadmap to Success.

Have you been to Sundance before?

Hi, first name.

Really?

What's your name?

Adrian.

Nice to meet you.

I'm Ben.

Oh, nice.

Yeah, this is my first time too, so I'm excited to be here.

Yeah.

Oh look, here's a cheer lift for the people who are here to ski, which

is what this town is actually about.

Yeah, I think there's a gondola that we can take up to the top

for free, which would be a fun, um, fun way to see the town.

And maybe, um, take the dock walking.

Ru Hyatts.

Woo.

Look at you.

Should we cross here?

Okay.

I, from the statistics note of this bird up here, it is a black and

white bird with a very long tail.

My family and I have seen on trips to Colorado, and we

refer to that bird as a tuxedo

pigeon.

A tuxedo pigeon, and then here's a sign that says birds of Park City.

Oh, where are they?

Bird watching zone.

I'm pretty, there's the

tuxedo pigeon right there, which I've come to find out is actually called a magpie.

Oh, I think I like tuxedo pigeon.

Minner.

What?

Well, we'll keep our eye out for more of those, including.

It's Mountain Bluebird.

Mountain Bluebird.

That's a good looking bird.

Good looking mountain.

Blue bird.

Let's keep our eye out

for the red wing Blackbird, the black capped chickadee.

And the house barrow.

Okay.

I'm, I'm keeping my eyes peeled.

I like how this is, you're, you're trying your hardest to make this

a podcast about bird watching.

I don't have to try the birds come to me.

Um, okay.

So.

Sundance is important because of selling your film and people come here, uh,

as filmmakers, they apply and hope to get in because this is the premier

festival in the United States where distributors come to watch films.

Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.

It's not that simple.

Obviously you have to have sales agents, uh, PR folks.

What else do you need to do?

Well, selling a film is a lot like selling a house.

And so as filmmakers, we kinda operate as architects and contractors, but there's

one significant piece of the puzzle missing in comparing the film to a house,

especially a spec film, which is when you build a house, you start out by buying

a piece of dirt and then you build up.

But when you make a film, you're on the.

For is the plot of land that this film's gonna call home.

And for the purposes of this drawn out analogy, that plot of land is something

along the lines of a Netflix or an HBO or an international theatrical rollout.

It's about distribution.

And so we need a realtor, or in film festival tour, you need a sales agent.

This is a solid analogy, by the way.

I like this.

This house analogy,

the thing about it is it's

all

in the framing.

Hey, keep going.

So we need a sales agent, right?

The much heralded off, misunderstood, but critical piece of the puzzle in any

independent film sale is a sales agent.

And how do you get a sales agent?

Where do you find a sales agent?

How can you get their attention and how can you be first on their

list of priorities at the festival?

That is a complicated.

Serious bunch of questions that I don't know that I have the answer to.

Let's see.

I made three features, uh, two, which have actually been released and got

theatrical distribution were we use the process you described, which is that

we knew sales agents through friends.

Usually our producers had an in with a top flight sales agent, and we were

able to get the movie in front of them.

And then based on.

What they consider to be their chances of success because they

get paid based on a commission.

So they only need to rep films that they feel like they can sell.

Then they position you to get into festivals.

Um, or I think in our case, we had already gotten into the festivals, you're gonna

premiere and then engage a sales agent.

Most sales agents these days won't take on a project if they don't

know where the premier is, and so.

I think in the old days, the olden times, you wanted to get the before island.

Yeah, as early as possible.

But the reality that I've, uh, encountered and, and sounds like

you have too, is that sales agents, um, choose wisely the projects that

they'll put time and, and effort into.

And so there's no point in them joining a project until a premier date has been set.

I think

that.

Sales agents have a harder and harder job these days.

Okay.

There are mega mergers happening.

There are people watching docs less and less, even though it seems like

they're watching them more and more.

The eyeballs are actually quite diffuse because there's so much

programming and the sales just aren't as big as they used to be.

So the, uh, sales agents have a.

Tough job, but so do indie filmmakers.

And the thing that you can really gain from coming to a festival is

building the relationships that will then help you make your next

film and your next and your next.

And if you focus just on selling the project that you've done, I think

you're doing yourself a disservice.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, it's totally, it's a multi, multi-tiered and multi-pronged, um, value

to gain from the festival experiences.

I do wanna.

Take note of this new soundscape we're experiencing.

was gonna say, we'd be remiss not to mention that we are walking

through a tunnel right now.

This is a tunnel underneath

some prospector railroad tracks.

So at least if the mural in the tunnel is to be believed and the sound is amazing.

Woo.

Tunnel.

Sundance Tunnel.

Sundance.

All right, let's keep going.

We are

emerging from the tunnel.

Ooh.

And yeah, that sounds

quite different.

No, the festival's about more than sales.

It's about more than press, it's about more than connecting with audiences.

It's about more than connecting with filmmakers.

It's about all those things.

You know, we all dream of like the kind of bidding war, um, you know,

at the after party at the premier.

But the reality is the sales process starts.

Weeks before the festival, sales agents are engaging buyers trying

to gin up interest in a big sale.

A lot of times what happens is that the decision makers don't come to the

screening, but they send their other colleagues and then so they come back

and say, you have to see Keith's film.

Then it takes a while for the person see the film, or maybe they have

to consider multiple films, and so then they have to have a meeting,

and so all of that drags on.

For a lot longer than filmmakers generally like.

Right.

So just like every other step

of this process, you've gotta have a stomach for the uncertain,

you gotta be comfortable, um, in the knowing of not knowing.

Ooh.

The knowing of not knowing.

I think there's a book called that.

I didn't make that up.

All right.

What are we doing?

Well, we're walking, we're talking so much walking, so much talking.

We are doing a lot of talking and we are surrounded by people.

Here at Sundance.

So why don't we, uh, ask some people on the street some questions?

That is a great idea.

It is also perfect timing because looking down the street, what

I see walking towards us is,

wait a minute, don't we know this guy coming at us here?

That is Frank Mosley.

Frank is my partner on my new doc.

Let's see what Frank has to say about Sundance.

How you doing Frank?

Hey, how you doing Keith?

What's going on?

Do you

know Ben Stein Bauer?

No, I don't.

There's a

snow treaty here right now.

I'm freezing.

I hate it.

I'm doing great.

So, Frank, we're here at the 2025 Sundance Film Festival.

Tell us, uh, what, what, how Sundance been for you so far?

I just got off the plane.

We're already having a lunch and well business meeting.

Have some films I'm gonna see and then a film I'm in come years, tomorrow night.

Frank, what is the like.

Like, what's the value of a film festival in 2025, do you think?

I got a lot of answers for that, but the one right off the bat

saying is in-person connectivity.

You know, if more than ever everything is virtual.

So to be able to actually be in a space with people and connect,

and I think it gives it kind of a, a thrill has been missing

for a while.

you have any tips for first time filmmakers who are, you

know, about to send their films off to their first festival?

Yeah, I mean, it's tough.

I, I would say.

Do research on festivals.

You know, not, not

every film is right for every festival, you know, and don't

be afraid of the regional fest.

I, I think that's where the heart of, of indie film

really lies.

I mean, the first festival outside of Dallas that took

one of my films was Sidewalk in

Birmingham, and that was the biggest deal in the world to me, getting into that.

Festival.

I mean, it changed everything.

Having a film outside of my home state, it felt like I was a real filmmaker.

Right, right, right.

It's a big step.

So it's, it's the validation.

Validation and

then also knowing that it's a long game.

You just keep making stuff with your community and let

the community expand, you know?

Oh, for the best.

Amen.

I think that's

great.

It's, uh, it's good to see Frank.

You too.

Yeah.

Uh, Frank's got a premiere here.

He is an actor.

He's a lead in, uh, in a film premiering in the next category.

What does that mean next?

It's a, a category supposedly reserved for films that are boundary pushing, either

in form content or both.

Um, and, you know, the, you see a range of films in there that

usually a little more adventurous.

I wouldn't say experimental, but they definitely take some risks.

And what's the film called?

Oex.

OVEX.

Oex, yeah.

Nice.

All right.

Look out for Oex, everybody.

Oh, look out for robots.

Look out for robots.

Alright.

Excellent, Frank.

Doing good meet you, man.

Yeah, thanks for doing this.

Be, you know, we'll see each other wandering around.

Awesome.

All

See you buddy.

See you.

Should we try and hop on one of these buses or do you wanna just walk back?

I don't mind walking, so I don't,

yeah, I don't mind walking.

Let's get her, let's get her steps in.

Okay.

It's nice.

Excuse me.

I see you have a badge on.

Oh, yeah.

It tell us what's going on here and what you're up to.

Just enjoying the festival, man.

Having fun, you know, seeing all the movies.

Are you a, are you a filmmaker?

Uh, yeah, but I'm just here volunteer, right?

Oh, you are?

Oh, you're a volunteer.

Okay.

What's the volunteer experience at Sunday?

Um, awesome man.

Everyone's really friendly and really nice.

Yeah,

really.

Is this your first year

at Sundance?

Yeah,

it is.

Okay.

It's a lot of fun, man.

You guys just see some, Phil,

you look like you got a place to go.

You're trying to get out of this.

Yeah, we've wanna see some star.

There you go.

What are you doing here at the festival?

Uh, I'm actually skiing and snowboarding, so.

Oh, so you're not even here to see the movies?

Yeah.

Oh, amazing.

Is this your first time at Sundance?

Yeah.

Ah, mine too.

Awesome.

How's it going for you so far?

We just got here, we just paid 60 bucks to park so.

Hopefully.

Hey,

it's fun.

You're here.

You made it.

Yeah.

Awesome.

I have a blast, man.

Thanks a lot.

Okay.

You see who I see coming up the road?

Is that Conan O'Brien?

I think that's Conan O'Brien.

Let's go see if I can Conan.

Look out for the ice.

I, we will look out for the ice.

Thank you.

There it goes.

Conan O'Brien.

So tell me who you are and, uh, what you're doing here.

My name is Ro Haki.

Um, I'm director, producer, editor of How Do Feel Rocks.

And how

do you pronounce your name?

You look like you're, well,

Imad.

Reza a. Okay.

I'm Iranian.

Iranian.

Okay.

Awesome.

And what film are you here with?

I think through Rocks.

Oh, awesome.

And, uh, tell me what the film is about.

So cutting through rocks takes place in the northwest of Iran.

It's in a very patriarchal setting, but that's where we meet, uh, our

lead character, who in the past she is been a midwife and delivered 400 kids.

So now the story starts with her wanting to run for a council seat.

That sounds fascinating.

Yeah.

And so is this your first time at Sundance?

Yes, it's our

first time

here.

How has the festival

been for you so far?

It's good.

It's very nice just talking, chatting with people, other filmmakers and also,

you know, because we finished a film recently, so we also carry on the, the

burden of emotionally, the burden of finishing a film and the story that they

spent seven years of our lives there.

So.

Being here is just, for me, it's a mix of a lot of feelings of happiness, just the

feeling of completion and also little bit.

Maybe sadness or, you know, saying goodbye.

Right.

Pleasure,

right?

Yeah.

It's like a birth.

You, you birth it into the world and now what happens is not up to you.

That's a complete, it's a new journey.

It's a completely a new journey.

What do you think about, uh, your chances of selling your documentary,

the documentary market in general?

What are your thoughts about that?

Well, you know, I, I know, uh, and this is something we've been told over and over

again, that this is not particularly the.

Best market, uh, over the past, uh, years, especially after

COVID or even prior to COVID.

But, uh, we made this film having that knowledge already because

for us, more than selling or buying is about telling the story.

So it's not necessarily about what happens here monetarily, it's about that you made

the film and that you told the story that you want to tell and that you get it out

in the world as a, as a gift in a way.

Yes.

But, but we all fear also having this optimism that even though it took a

long time to be here today, we have, uh.

Feeling that it will find its audience, it will find its sales team when it's not to.

Well, I hope it does.

Good luck.

You.

So hot.

Well, you guys are great.

Yes, sorry.

Thank you for the time.

I really appreciate it.

Appreciate the time.

Uh, good luck with the Premier and I can't wait to see the movie.

Awesome.

All right.

Okay, so that was Mohamed Reza Aney, I think I'm saying that right.

And Sarah cocky.

They are the directors and producers of cutting through rocks, the Iranian film,

and what a cool way to have met them.

We were literally standing in line for a cup of coffee at the Adobe house

and, uh, I went over and just struck up a conversation and lo and behold,

through doc filmmakers here from Iran,

international World Premier, and I don't know what Sarah had to say about, you

know, I think we've, we focus a lot on like, what's the marketplace, but

you know, Sarah reminds us like this.

First and foremost as storytellers, our job is to get these stories out

there and to connect with audiences.

And that's, you know, the, what they're hoping happens with cutting through rocks.

I don't know.

Um, and, and they worked on it for 10 years and there was this

kind of twinkle in their eye.

They were so excited to be, uh, showing their film here and finally

getting it out in the world.

So to talk about it like a birth, that was, that was really cool.

Yeah.

Let's talk to some other folks.

My name is Paul ves.

I'm a director of photography on the film, the Librarians.

And, um, we're very happy to premiere at Sundance.

It's a huge, huge accomplishment because the movie was literally

finished five days ago

and you're hot and you're basically, I'm talking to you

right after the premiere, right?

You premiered at the Ray.

Wow.

We had a huge turnout.

Like what is it that you get out of

being at a festival like Sundance?

Um.

Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, I think the goal for any filmmaker is to meet other filmmakers

and to collaborate with other filmmakers.

Um, we are working in a documentary world, which is underfunded.

Political things are very hard to sell, especially now, Netflix, HBO.

Nobody wants to buy a really highly political movie, so being in a

space like Sundance is like a way to connect to the rest of the world.

Well, congrats man.

This is really huge.

I'm so excited to see you here bumping you.

This is like why people come to.

This, you know, this festival, like you live in New York.

We work together on a commercial.

Yes.

I live in Austin.

Like we wouldn't get a chance to overlap really.

And so it was amazing to see you and you worked on the film that my buddy edited.

Yeah.

So I love it.

This is world's colliding.

Uh, who are you and what are you doing here at Sundance?

My name is Angelan.

I'm a social media manager for a foundation.

Um, and I'm here to document the Sundance experience for said

Foundation because we support.

Independent documentary filmmaking, participatory civic media, news,

journalism and things of that nature.

And is the question, what are my thoughts on the state of it today?

Well, actually you're a very interesting person to talk to because you are so

plugged into social media, and I think a big part of what's challenging documentary

viewership right now is social media.

So how do you think social media is challenging,

documentary and changing needs?

I think the same way that social media kind of made everyone a journalist, it

enabled everyone to be a documentarian to not even just like cinema, um,

necessarily just real time coverage of events that are happening in South Korea.

Like there's martial law happening.

People who are in the Democratic Republic of Congo talking about

the way that mining for minerals is impacting their local populations.

So I think anyone who has a story to tell has the means to do so.

Go on with,

yeah.

And so that democratization of media is great on the one hand, but then on the

other hand, if everybody's scrolling through TikTok and not watching longer

form narratives, that also feels like there's something missing or that

that's like maybe not a positive, right?

It is

a trade

off,

and I think that maybe the storytellers have to decide what's more important.

Is it awareness?

Is it a call to action?

Is it.

Considering something in a different perspective that might actually require

more detailed storytelling, and you flatten it in 30 seconds or 90 seconds

and you don't want to go that route.

I think all that's valid.

Yeah.

What are you excited about for 2025 when you look at like the landscape

of what's coming, what you do for a living, and what matters to the,

the people that you work with?

When seismic shifts happen in the social media space, they think that it riles

up everyone, not even just people who are creators, but people who are also

consumers feel like they have a stake in, in the concepts that they're consuming.

And, uh.

The content moderation, the policies, they're upset about the algorithm.

Like everyone gets really, really in on it.

And it kind of feels like, to me, like that collective effervescence when people

have a, when there's the lottery and it's like a really, really high jackpot.

It's just everyone's, everyone wants to buy a ticket, even if

they know they're not gonna win.

So that's why I feel about social media.

It's like, even if you're not a content creator, like you're

still, you're still in on it.

You're in the game and, and I'm excited to witness that excitement.

That's a great answer.

Oh, here comes Russell.

Wayne Groves right here.

What's up buddy?

Russell's a an executive producer.

Producer.

Done all kinds of award-winning moneymaking documentaries.

How's life?

Well, we're here at the Sundance Film Festival.

Yeah.

What do you do?

Do you know Keith Maitland?

Keith,

this is Russell Grove.

I know.

Love Keith.

You know,

same.

I've heard your name so many times and we have a lot of friends in common.

Yeah.

You look like you are not wearing near the amount of layers that we are.

And I'm freezing in all this, in all this.

Pretty good.

So, are you here to catch movies?

To set meetings, to do little fundraising or what?

I never come to to watch movies.

I come to meet with people, talk about stuff.

I'm really interested in two things in particular.

What is the state of distribution in sales in this business for indies in particular,

which is a disaster area in my opinion.

Uh, but I'm just curious kinda where things are headed.

Just based upon from sales, we're talking to submarine, talking to X, Y,

Z, and talking to other distributors.

And then on the financing side, trying to curate what is a pathway.

That is a feasible pathway that mitigates risk for investors, but also curates

the best approach since you could make consistent films and not have to worry

about doing a startup every single time.

Every time.

That's a great way to put it.

Those are the things I'm trying to crack.

Yeah.

That's a great way to say it.

This is my first time ever coming to Sundance.

Really?

And I've fought it.

That shocks me.

I fought it my whole career.

I was a snob about it.

I didn't want to come unless I had a movie here.

Okay.

And Keith and I started doing this podcast and he convinced

me, yeah, the time is now.

You gotta put that shit away and come up here.

And I have to say, so far everything you're describing is.

My experience, I just getting to community people and

I'm curious to see what the fires have done to attendance.

It's a tragedy and I, you can't discount the fact that it's gonna

have some kind of material effect.

I'm hopeful if there's a silver lining that people are a little bit more open

and emotional and willing to talk about things, and maybe it's a little bit less

crowded so you can actually have some.

Discussions with some people, but, but I'm looking at it positive either way.

You have to, you gotta, you have to be a hopeless optimist

to, to be in this business.

Yeah.

And sometimes that's difficult to find.

Well, I did say hopeless.

Exactly.

Hopelessness is certainly that.

What are you looking to get out of, uh, coming to Sundance?

Um, we out here at Sundance, you know, everybody's out here enjoying themselves.

Unfortunately, I gotta work, but I'm glad to be here and be able to meet people

like y'all and just share the good vibes.

Y'all.

You, you do have some good vibes.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I very vibe.

Yeah.

What are you doing right now?

Like what, what's your job that you're doing here?

I'm, so, right now we're just facilitating parking and making

sure nobody comes with their car.

Try to ram people over.

Thank you.

You know what I mean?

Thank you for your service.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

anybody, everybody could check out my, my music.

I'm on YouTube, uh, chosen a few productions chosen, glory

chosen with A-Z-C-H-O-Z-E-N.

I appreciate it.

Just to give you guys a little tidy sneak peek is.

Something light like, why don't you, oh, that was horrible.

Try that again.

I wanna coach.

The coach, she wanted Birkins.

Everyone said she wasn't worth it.

If I'm in the club twerking, she was working, made me nervous.

She was lurking.

She wanted Birkins.

Shout out to all my homies locked up and all the people in the struggle.

I feel like there's something huge going on in the world and

there's an enlightening process happening and I think if all of us

together as a using, as a unit and a collective, start looking at our.

Differences and what we have in common.

We can go a long ways.

I feel like there's gonna be a great reset, you know, so.

What are you guys out here doing?

This is a documentary list.

We are,

uh, we're we're documentary filmmakers who happen to be, uh, moonlighting right

now as podcasters wandering the streets, trying not to get hit by the UPS track.

Yeah, look out this guy's coming through and, uh, we saw you over here.

I don't know.

We, we were feeling the good vibe.

Something drew us over and I'm glad we did.

Absolutely chosen Glory.

ZE with a million dollar smile, man.

Keep smiling.

All right.

So I all thank you.

Thanks a lot.

God bless you all.

All right, you too.

Uh,

excuse me.

So what is your favorite bird?

Stop.

See, that guy just sailed on by.

Ooh.

Like, like he was cutting O'Brien or something

like Coon O'Brien.

What is your favorite bird?

Look out for the ice.

Watch out for that eagle.

my goodness.

Excuse me.

Hey.

Hi.

How Sunday treating you?

That's great.

Yeah, it's wonderful.

Yeah.

We're a film here, so it's Couldn't be any better.

Speak to me about that film.

It's a feature film documentary about this competitive high school speech and based

tournament that is nationwide, and we followed five incredibly talented seniors.

All the way through an entire school year to the final tournament that it

happens every year with up to 10,000 kids.

Beautiful.

And it's an incredibly experience because it really gives you hope for

the future once you see that film.

Incredible.

Hate that right now.

Congratulations.

What is your role in the film?

What's your name?

I was

producer.

I'm Christophe

and I cinematographer on it.

Oh, oh.

I Cinema

was getting little insights into this film throughout the process because our

good friend Oay Ed was your composer.

Oay is the best.

He really, oay is the best.

I did see, uh, you know, a bunch of cuts obviously, but really once this music

one day and it just kind of bloomed.

Yeah, you really bloomed.

It was like an ly wolf thing you had.

That's

Yeah.

That's, so you had a great premiere.

You had a great premiere.

Yep.

What are you hoping for next?

What are the next steps for speed and first

festivals?

Festivals.

Festivals, but also when we wanna, we want to film to get out there because it is

the film that feels so much more important than it even felt like two months ago.

And this is kind of one of these antidotes because those kids,

you can tell, call kids, students almost, they're adults, you know, but

they're 17, but they are the future.

And, and they, they will be fighting for it and everybody should see it.

Yeah.

Alright.

And do you have distribution already?

Not

yet.

We're looking, but we had a ton of people there and people seem to really love

it, so we really, really optimistic us.

Excellent.

Good.

Optimistic.

There's that word again.

He's optimistic.

No.

Hey.

Well,

since you're hitting one of our main themes is optimism.

Yeah.

I also need to know Christophe.

Yeah.

What is your favorite

bird?

My favorite bird.

I love a blue jay.

I love blue Jay.

I love blue.

And you know blue.

Well

look at those beautiful blue eyes.

You have Christopher.

Yeah, right.

Exactly right.

Perfect match.

Right.

There we go.

Um, what

do you think should we do?

I think, you know, after first day of Sundance, what struck with me is there's a

real community vibe here in Park City and our instinct that this would be a great

way to start off the calendar year, get a little inspiration to kind of fill our

cup and drive forward, I think bears out.

I think we're not the only ones thinking that.

Uh, it seems like everybody I spoke to was really excited and optimistic.

About

the future.

That should be the name of the Of this episode.

Yes, hopeless Optimist.

You can sort of look at it either way.

Are you hopeless or are you an optimist, or are you a hopeless optimist?

And I think in order to do this work, you have to be two of those.

Three.

You have to be optimistic at minimum, hopelessly optimistic at most.

And if you're hopeless, you're not gonna get very far making documentaries.

Excuse me.

Is this Jessica Wolfson?

This Ben.

Hi Howard.

Hi friend.

How's it going?

Good.

Look at us in Park City.

Look at you, doc.

Walking.

I know.

You know.

This is great.

This is your first time?

My first time at Sundays.

I feel very much like I'm crashing the party.

I feel like an imposter and I really hate.

No you shouldn't.

Just because you don't have a filmer does not mean you don't have to be here.

This is a community of people you should go and shwe.

Yeah.

Um, but you guys are coming to my weird house party.

Where about I'll be

on this, I'll be on the later side.

Okay.

Can

we bring some folks?

Is that all right?

Please?

Yeah.

See

you guys later.

Producer podcast for us.

Um,

okay.

That was great.

I do wanna say like, we're getting long in the day here, but.

I see an old friend walking down the street.

Um, I'm gonna just grab her and see if she'll talk to us or do you know Sue Kim?

I don't.

Okay.

So I met Sue in 2008.

We were both pretty early in our careers.

She has had a phenomenal run as a producer.

I know she made Hale County this morning.

Um, the Tube of Thieves, midnight Traveler, um, I think she had last year.

I think hidden letters.

And the thing I love about Sue more than anything is that

she always tells it straight.

Great.

Let's talk to her.

Yeah.

We're walking down the street and who do I look up and see?

But Sue Kim Superstar in the documentary community, Sundance Stalwart.

Did we meet back in 2008 at the Producers Academy?

Mm-hmm.

I feel like I've known you forever, and that makes sense.

'cause that was basically the beginning of, of everything for me.

Same for you.

Yeah.

Uh, Sue, this is Ben Steinhower.

Hi Sue.

You're so nice to meet you.

I shake your hand, but uh,

my hand is holding a microphone.

Um.

So we're just walking around.

Uh, we have a little podcast that we're trying to get started

called Doc Walks, where we go on walks and talk to doc filmmakers.

And, uh, here we are walking around Main Street and we saw you and

we thought, let's talk to Sue.

Is that cool?

What are we gonna talk about?

Let's talk about docs.

Let's talk about documentaries.

Yeah.

Are you here at the festival of the film?

No, no film this year I came, um, because I wanted to see films.

Yeah.

And has that been working out?

Have you been able to see stuff?

I don't know.

Like I, I schedule things too tightly and.

So I, I haven't seen it as many films as I've wanted to, but more

than when I'm here with the film.

Yeah.

What have you seen that you've loved so far?

I don't know.

You know, I haven't had enough time to process because it's kind of a spectrum.

Like I, you know, need to like watch things and then think

about it and I haven't really had a chance to think about it.

Gotcha.

What are you thinking about when you look at the documentary marketplace?

As a producer?

Mm-hmm.

As somebody who is working as an independent, um.

What does the world look like for you for 2025?

Um, I think it's a really challenging marketplace right now.

I think the big thing that the big funder for documentaries, you know, we both

know, it's like been public television.

Yeah.

And then with like the new administration, like all of that seems very up in the air.

And so then if you look at like commercial, uh, entities that may

purchase or um, commission films, I think that they're also like,

they're not producing the kind of films that probably you and I are.

Making.

Yeah.

So I think it's, um, it's different, you know?

You know, it's really interesting 'cause when I first started,

people always said to me how hard it was when people say that now.

But I feel like the heart is just, it's not a measure, it's just different.

Yeah.

I, I think like the one thing about being an indie filmmaker,

I've learned to be resilient.

Yes.

You have to.

Right?

And one of the things that, uh, keeps coming up when we talk to people is the.

Idea of being hopelessly optimistic and that that's what gets you

started doing this work and you sue doesn't agree with that.

What do you think, Sue?

don't, I don't agree with that.

Oh,

tell me why.

think I have, like, I try to have realistic goals about

the things that I'm doing.

Like, um, because if you don't have realistic goals,

you set yourself up to fail.

And I'm really, I don't wanna see any fa I'm working on fail, so I, I try to

be realistic and you really have, you know, look at what I'm working on and

what, what's out there, and then really have a plan for that particular project.

That works for that project based on the goals of the team.

that is spoken like a true producer.

What's p Pragmatic is all Get out, Sue.

No, but otherwise, you know it, it needs people in a place where they

feel like they failed and that it's really hard to get yourself back up.

Yeah, I think that's right.

Keith is waking

up.

Um.

Well, we are about to head into this party.

Sue's gonna join us, so we're gonna wrap it up here, but there's a million